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    #16
    I can understand vegetarianism but I fail to see how non-vegetarians can decide that eating some animals is morally acceptable but eating other animals is not. Either yo do not eat animals or you do and it is double standards to decide that cows are an acceptable diet but dogs are not. The only ethical grounds I see for objecting to eating dogs, if you are prepared to eat cows, is that, in food chain terms eating carnivores is a very inefficient way of obtaining energy that originally entered the food chain through photosynthesis. If dog is a readily avaialble and traditional part of a local diet then I see no really valid objections to eating it but I do think that farming dogs with the express purpose of eating them is a terribly inefficient way of obtaining meat.

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      #17
      Originally posted by Adrian
      If you bring human souls into the equationthere are two ways of responding to data that shows a similarity between human and other animals:
      1> Other animals are like humans therefore other animals have souls.
      2> Humans are like other animals therefore humans do not have souls.

      I would leave souls out of the equation because I do not beleieve in them and to me they are an irrelevant distraction.
      I'm not talking about "human" souls, Adrian, but souls that may be unique to non-human animals. These animals can't be rewarded or punished for their moral/immoral behavior in life, as can humans, because they don't have free-choice...but I believe they might when they die reunite with the divine source that gave them life, if there is such a source.

      Just wondering aloud...my above musings are based on there being a god...and I'm not sure if god exists, myself, so I have many questions that aren't easily answered or understood.

      I find it more likely that there is some creator that created the universe that is like no entity any human has ever before thought of, let alone voiced, but the god that man invented doesn't seem likely to me.

      Maybe we better end this discussion right here, as I have delved into religion here, and topics about religion don't seem to fare well here at CC
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        #18
        Originally posted by Adrian
        I can understand vegetarianism but I fail to see how non-vegetarians can decide that eating some animals is morally acceptable but eating other animals is not. Either yo do not eat animals or you do and it is double standards to decide that cows are an acceptable diet but dogs are not. The only ethical grounds I see for objecting to eating dogs, if you are prepared to eat cows, is that, in food chain terms eating carnivores is a very inefficient way of obtaining energy that originally entered the food chain through photosynthesis. If dog is a readily avaialble and traditional part of a local diet then I see no really valid objections to eating it but I do think that farming dogs with the express purpose of eating them is a terribly inefficient way of obtaining meat.
        You are very rational and scientific in your expressions. And I really enjoy reading most of your posts.
        The reasons for me not being able to accept eating dog have NOTHING to do with science or rational thinking.

        Neither does the reason one prefers asparagus to mustard greens.

        The market for dogs includes it being a delicacy..cultures keeping the dogs from puphood and using them to guard their homes and children..then eating them.

        Even without these travesties..it sucks bigtime IMO.
        Eat a lizard if your so damn hungry and can't buy a steak. Have some raton con rico. Put some reptile in your wok.

        We are all hypocrites about something sometime..and if I see anyone I mean anyone abusing a dog. My pacifism becomes a hypocrisy pronto.
        Last edited by Lindox; 24 Nov 2006, 7:41 PM.
        Life isn't about getting thru the storm but learning to dance in the rain.

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          #19
          Personally i think western society in general bases its distaste for eating certain animals on the "cuteness" factor hence the huge outcry over slaughtered baby seals which are really slaughtered quite humanely in comparison to cattle raised for human consumption.
          Interesting about self awareness in certain animals though. Having been involved in slaughtering quite a few pigs I have noticed that pigs seem to pick up on the fact that they are due for the knife and start squealing like theres no tomorrow before they even get touched by the blade, they are very smart animals IMO.

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            #20
            Originally posted by IanTPoulter
            Personally i think western society in general bases its distaste for eating certain animals on the "cuteness" factor hence the huge outcry over slaughtered baby seals which are really slaughtered quite humanely in comparison to cattle raised for human consumption.
            Interesting about self awareness in certain animals though. Having been involved in slaughtering quite a few pigs I have noticed that pigs seem to pick up on the fact that they are due for the knife and start squealing like theres no tomorrow before they even get touched by the blade, they are very smart animals IMO.

            Ian,
            Those pigs squeal like there is no tomorrow..because for them there is no tomorrow.

            I guess we really are more like aLL other predators then we want to admit. I have no food thoughts about cows when riding through where they are grazing. Just like a full lion walking where there are wildebeast grazing and he just finished eating one.

            Like going to the aquarium and seeing lobster.
            No food thoughts..unless I am hungry.
            Then the observation turns into a yearning for melted butter.

            Never ever have had a thought about eating a dog.
            Life isn't about getting thru the storm but learning to dance in the rain.

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              #21
              Originally posted by Lindox

              I guess we really are more like aLL other predators then we want to admit..
              That's true. Human arrogance at its highest. We are horrified when an animal kills a human but think nothing of our practice of brutally slaughtering hundreds of thousands of animals a day.

              The elephant is my favorite animal. It pains me to no end when their family units are destroyed and they're senselessly slaughtered for their tusks.

              I hate that our society condones and encourages abject barbarism.

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                #22
                Check it out antiquity




                More here at http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/pop...ontent=&page=1
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                  #23
                  Originally posted by Lindox
                  Ian,
                  Those pigs squeal like there is no tomorrow..because for them there is no tomorrow.

                  I guess we really are more like aLL other predators then we want to admit. I have no food thoughts about cows when riding through where they are grazing. Just like a full lion walking where there are wildebeast grazing and he just finished eating one.

                  Like going to the aquarium and seeing lobster.
                  No food thoughts..unless I am hungry.
                  Then the observation turns into a yearning for melted butter.

                  Never ever have had a thought about eating a dog.
                  Human, the ultimate predator. But it is our meat eating habits and predatory behaviour that got the human race to where it is today and also what sustains us in our position on this planet. We are omnivourous intelligent apes who thousands of years ago thought nothing of hunting an animal, any animal and devouring it alive just like Lions as you suggest.

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by rdf
                    Check it out antiquity
                    Thanks RDF.

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                      #25
                      What an interesting and thoughtful discussion.

                      rdf, in my opinion, I am not sure that it is justified to say that "soul" requires self-awareness or ability to interpret mirror images. For instance, would you want to say that a retarded person with Down's syndrome or somebody with head injury who does not have these abilities does not have a soul? At what point would you want to say that the person has lost his or her soul? By the way, that picture of the baby elephant, lying on the pink tissues? That is a dead baby elephant, lying on a placenta that had been opened, is it not?

                      antiquity, it took me a long time to realize that ivory come mostly from elephant tusks (I thought that they came from any kind of bone) and that a lot of elephant died for chopsticks, piano key surfaces, and some carved decorative item on somebody's shelf. When I was travelling in ShiShanBanna (in South China), our hosts told us that we must watch out for elephants because, for some reason, the elephants in that region are mad at humans and have a propensity to attack. I was thinking that we don't even know what we did to make them that mad.

                      lindox, I share your feelings. I have never been able to do an experiment on a dog. When I was young, I spent a happy year between first and second grade at home, with three German Shepards as companions and friends. I believe that it is important that people see what they eat. To me, the American custom of hiding the heads of the animals that we eat doesn't make sense. The Chinese don't do this.

                      Ian, I agree that pigs are smart animals. However, I think that most animals know when they are going to be killed, even rats and mice. For that reason, it is important for people to know how to slaughter animals in ways that minimize suffering. There is no reason to do it cruelly. Regarding what foods one should or should not eat, it is totally irrational. If you are going to eat an animal, might as well look at it's head. I also believe that if one kills an animal, one should eat as many parts of the animal as possible and not waste any part. It is wasteful, for example, to throw away chicken feet. Wasting food is dishonoring the animal that gave its life to feed you. Likewise, I am aghast by what Americans throw out for no reason other than squeamishness.

                      Wise.
                      Last edited by Wise Young; 25 Nov 2006, 12:08 PM.

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                        #26
                        It's supposed to be a baby elephant in the womb, according to the ABC website http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/pop...ontent=&page=1

                        I wouldn't have knowingly posted a dead baby elephant for seneca

                        As to the soul, I believe that people with head injuries or downs syndrome have souls, as do all modern humans, at least that was my thinking when posting above. It's the non-human animals, and other-human hominids besides homo-sapien, that are intriguing to me when the matter of souls are pondered.

                        The images of animals in the womb may be computer generated...
                        Last edited by rdf; 25 Nov 2006, 2:33 PM.
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                          #27
                          Originally posted by wise young
                          Ian, I agree that pigs are smart animals. However, I think that most animals know when they are going to be killed, even rats and mice. For that reason, it is important for people to know how to slaughter animals in ways that minimize suffering. There is no reason to do it cruelly. Regarding what foods one should or should not eat, it is totally irrational. If you are going to eat an animal, might as well look at it's head. I also believe that if one kills an animal, one should eat as many parts of the animal as possible and not waste any part. It is wasteful, for example, to throw away chicken feet. Wasting food is dishonoring the animal that gave its life to feed you. Likewise, I am aghast by what Americans throw out for no reason other than squeamishness.
                          Wise, i agree about slaughtering animals humanely. I am not sure that the western method of mass killing animals with a stun gun on a production line is any more humane than the more traditional method I have experienced in s/e asia of cutting the animals throat and bleeding it though.
                          Apparently in western abbatoirs the animals waiting to be slaughtered can sense the fear of the animals preceding them and by the time they get slaughtered have already been in extreme fear for a considerable period of time.
                          Incidentally in parts of asia the bleeding is done so as not to waste the blood as it is used either for soup or gravy and actually doesnt taste too bad. I agree about the wastefulness of western society, part of the problem I think is that most western people have never been truly hungry in their lives. Hunger certainly teaches a respect for the availability of animal protein whichever animal or part of the animal it comes from IMO.

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                            #28
                            Originally posted by rdf
                            It's supposed to be a baby elephant in the womb, according to the ABC website http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/pop...ontent=&page=1

                            I wouldn't have knowingly posted a dead baby elephant for seneca

                            As to the soul, I believe that people with head injuries or downs syndrome have souls, as do all modern humans, at least that was my thinking when posting above. It's the non-human animals, and other-human hominids besides homo-sapien, that are intriguing to me when the matter of souls are pondered.

                            The images of animals in the womb may be computer generated...
                            rdf, you may be right. The background looks too pink to be "dead". All the other pictures on the site are of living elephant fetuses. However, I have difficulties imaging how they were able to have so much room... They must have altered the picture with computer graphics. Apologies to Antiquity.

                            http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...871549745.html
                            Watching the animals in the womb gives a fascinating peek at evolutionary history. The dolphin's development gives a nod to its land-dwelling ancestors as tiny leg-like buds come and go in the first month.The bone structure of its fins bears a startling resemblance to human hands.

                            Conversely, the elephant could have once lived in the sea. Scans on the four-month-old elephant embryo reveal kidney ducts that are more commonly found in freshwater fish and frogs.

                            "We worked with dozens of zoos and animal sanctuaries across the world. There were a lot of different challenges. But it has been worth it," Dear said.
                            Here is one of the dolphin and a golden retriever in the womb (inset). Must have been hard to train the pregnant dolphin to keep still while filming.

                            http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006540470,00.html

                            http://www.mirror.co.uk/tm_headline=...name_page.html
                            They have been obtained using highly sophisticated ultrasound techniques and tiny cameras planted in the womb. The final images were then graphically manipulated by computer.

                            Jeremy Dear, of Pioneer Productions who made the two-hour film for National Geographic, said: "We worked with dozens of zoos.

                            "Animals were trained to sit still for the ultrasound while dolphins were trained to lie on their sides. But it has been worth it.

                            "In one sequence we follow an elephant developing ... when it is finally born, there is not a dry eye in the house."

                            The elephant embryo goes through an epic 22-month pregnancy but ultrasound was able to confirm a pregnancy at just 16 weeks. At 18 weeks its legs move slowly and its head starts moving up and down and from side to side, already training the muscles that will eventually carry its huge bulk.

                            By six months the baby elephant foetus is fully recognisable, but at 12 months the foetus is still only 18ins long and weighs 26lbs.

                            At the time of birth, it weighs 10 times as much. Astonishingly, the dolphin embryo inexplicably develops tiny leg-like buds at 24 days which then disappear over the next two weeks.

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by rdf
                              Check it out antiquity




                              More here at http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/pop...ontent=&page=1
                              That photo is a bit hard to believe.
                              I don't know. Something surreal about it even if the fetus is dead. Need to show it to an expert.

                              Does an elephant fetus look this elephant at this size in the gestation period of 22 months?
                              Life isn't about getting thru the storm but learning to dance in the rain.

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                                #30
                                In the Womb: Animals

                                National Geographic Channel premiers a new documentary on Dec. 10 at 8 p.m. The documentary takes viewers inside the wombs of elephants, dolphins and dogs to trace their different paths from conception to birth.

                                At 12 months, an elephant fetus is on average 18 inches long and weighs approximately 26 pounds. It can use its trunk, curling it right up into its mouth and over its head.
                                (National Geographic)

                                Lindox, I can't see them using dead fetuses in a special documentary.

                                Here's the elephant fetus at only 16 weeks:





                                Here's one of my favorite dogs of all time, a Golden Retriever:



                                At about 45 days the dog's nose is clearly visible. Approximately a week later the golden retriever fetus will have a full coat of light cream hair, and soon after the whiskers become visible as well.
                                (National Geographic
                                Last edited by rdf; 25 Nov 2006, 8:37 PM.
                                Please donate a dollar a day at http://justadollarplease.org.
                                Copy and paste this message to the bottom of your signature.

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