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  • #31
    Originally posted by Pucker Up View Post
    Update: I used red bali kratom after going cold turkey and it helped amazingly. As I went to taper off the kratom I did have some problems with loose stool, sleeplessness and restlessness. This lasted several weeks after my last dose.
    Kratom is an opioid agonist as well. It is not significantly different (to your brain) than taking opioids, with the exception that there is also some stimulant effect (along the same lines as taking adderall or methamphetamine), and the fact that it is unregulated so you have no way of knowing what dose you are actually taking.

    Advising someone to take kratom (and I recognize you're only sharing your own experience and not recommending for others to do it, so this isn't directed at you in anyway, just for general consumption), is similar to advising someone to grow poppies and make their own opium to help ease off of morphine. Tapering off of opioids using pharmaceutical medications under the supervision of a physician is certainly the safer and more reliable route to go.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by funklab View Post
      Kratom is an opioid agonist as well. It is not significantly different (to your brain) than taking opioids, with the exception that there is also some stimulant effect (along the same lines as taking adderall or methamphetamine), and the fact that it is unregulated so you have no way of knowing what dose you are actually taking.

      Advising someone to take kratom (and I recognize you're only sharing your own experience and not recommending for others to do it, so this isn't directed at you in anyway, just for general consumption), is similar to advising someone to grow poppies and make their own opium to help ease off of morphine. Tapering off of opioids using pharmaceutical medications under the supervision of a physician is certainly the safer and more reliable route to go.
      Kratom is a great way to withdraw from opiates. First taper down on how much opiates you take. Then when you start feeling icky, make some Kratom tea. The idea is to trade opiates for Kratom. The reason for this, is Kratom is not very addictive, so then you can stop much easier. I've used this method a couple of times, and it works great.
      T12L1 Incomplete Still here This is the place to be 58 years old

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      • #33
        Originally posted by flying View Post
        Kratom is a great way to withdraw from opiates. First taper down on how much opiates you take. Then when you start feeling icky, make some Kratom tea. The idea is to trade opiates for Kratom. The reason for this, is Kratom is not very addictive, so then you can stop much easier. I've used this method a couple of times, and it works great.
        Kratom is an opioid, just to be clear. It acts on the same euphoria enducing/pain reducing mu opioid receptor that morphine and all other opioids do.

        If you want to argue it is "not very addictive" that's a pretty vague statement. Addiction issues are slightly off topic as I don't think anyone is suggesting OP is addicted, but I will digress for a moment. One could easily argue that Oxycontin is "not very addictive" because the majority of first time users do not become dependent or addicted and there is a strong theoretical basis for thinking it would be less addicting than other quicker acting opioids. In fact drug companies made those very arguments over the past couple decades and the resulting increase in prescription of oxycodone was a major factor in the opioid crisis which has claimed the lives of more than half a million Americans and counting. There are many people who are addicted to kratom, and many people who have lost jobs/relationships/health etc due to their addiction to this legal substance.

        If you want to argue that kratom is less harmful than opioids, I think that's a rational discussion to have (and probably more relevant to this thread). I don't think anyone can point to robust scientific evidence that kratom is less harmful. Certainly there seems to be less of an overdose potential, but that it because in addition to acting on the same mu opioid receptors that heroin and fentanyl does (indeed when someone overdoses on kratom they are given the same opioid blocker, naloxone, as someone who overdoses on opioids), it also stimulant properties which counteract the respiratory depression. But what else does it do? No one really knows. Certainly it sometimes causes damage to the liver. It also affects blood levels of other medications through the CYP system, though the exact effects of this are poorly understood because kratom has numerous physiologically active compounds and metabolites. Also, no one regulates the potency of kratom. There is no way to know how much (if any) kratom is in any particular dose, and manufacturers are free to put whatever they feel like in the capsules they are selling in drug stores because the FDA is not regulating supplements. Should someone get hold of a much stronger dose than they are used to (even though the label might say it's exactly the same), they could easily overdose.

        Suggesting that kratom is better than opioids today seems similar to me as making the argument five years ago that vaping is safer than smoking. We can't be sure, no one has been tracking outcomes and in this country very few people were taking kratom until very recently, just like a few years ago very few people were vaping. We know that opioids have downsides and especially for any opioids that have gone through the rigorous FDA approval process we know a whole lot about what exactly those downsides are and how often they occur. We don't with kratom because no one has studied it and no one is regulating what is being sold as kratom.

        I saw someone this week who was told a few years ago that vaping was safer than smoking. He switched to vaping, got a fancy vape and some custom made vape juice and went to town. Everything was great until he had a reaction to the oil used in the vape. He ended up intubated in the ICU for over a month and will likely be on oxygen for the rest of his life. Perhaps he would have developed cancer at some point years down the road had he continued smoking, but he certainly wouldn't have been such severe lung problems so soon. You could argue that vaping is still safer than cigarettes, but that remains an unproven argument. People have been smoking and studying people who smoke for a very long time, the vast majority of complications from smoking take multiple decades to manifest and no one knows what chronic vaping for fifty years will due to a persons lungs (or other organs for all we know). Similarly the effects of kratom are unknown.

        The jury is out on kratom and people promoting it as a "cure" for addiction (or dependence in OPs case) seem to be repeating similar arguments we've seen in the past when people promoted heroin as a non-addictive cure for alcoholism or Oxycontin as a nonaddictive alternative to morphine with a similar complete lack of scientific evidence. I remain highly skeptical.

        Just because something is new and a replacement for something known to be bad, does not mean it is good or even better.



        But what do I know... maybe I'm just too much of a conservative scaredy cat when it comes to putting unregulated intoxicants with unknown effects into my body.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by funklab View Post
          Kratom is an opioid, just to be clear. It acts on the same euphoria enducing/pain reducing mu opioid receptor that morphine and all other opioids do.

          But what do I know... maybe I'm just too much of a conservative scaredy cat when it comes to putting unregulated intoxicants with unknown effects into my body.
          You are just too logical and interested in real science. I am in a FB group where some members constantly extol the virtues of marijuana, saying it is endlessly superior to baclofen and gabapentin because it is "natural". i do not doubt it is- for some people. All I can do is point out that arsenic is "natural"- we find it in water. There is a sort of "fundamentalism of herbs" where some believe nature is benign. It is not. It is indifferent to individual survival and that is why we have science.

          ok. I'm off the soapbox.

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          • #35
            I was no trying to say Kratom is better then opiates. I take hydromorphone myself. What I'm saying is that when you are withdrawing from opiate, and you get down to were you are taking a small amount every other day, then it's faster, to switch to Kratom, to finish out the process. Kratom has way less dependent tendencys, compared to hydromorphone, so it's easier to quit taking.

            Also if you can get by on a weaker opiate, then you can take Kratom , with less dependents.
            There was an experiment where rats were given opiates, or Kratom for a month. The Kratom rats had no withdrawals after a month, where the opiate rats did.

            As for cannabis replacing all the other drugs, well that might be true for a few, but not the norm.

            In my pain war, I've gone from, going into a state of shock, to relief from a spinal cord stimulater. I found that in the state of shock pain, it would blow right through strong opiates, and everything else. But with less pain a lot of the stuff people swear by, starts to work. Like cannabis, and distraction. So I think it's all a matter of how bad you got pain, determines what works. Somewhat anyway.
            T12L1 Incomplete Still here This is the place to be 58 years old

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