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    #46
    Suicide attempts are almost always precipitate actions that occur when a person undergoes intolerable stress and anguish. Suicide intervention is so very successful because if the person obtains help and support to get them through that crucial time, suicide no longer is an attractive alternative.

    No matter how well-intentioned, the internet and this forum are not appropriate to provide the help to get someone through that particular crisis. I would be very worried that this thread can be easily accessed by anyone in crises. Unless someone is a member of CC, it would be easy to view Bill's or others posts and anguish and misinterpret them as broadly legitimizing suicide. Non-members would not know the context or the history of these thoughts about and contemplation of suicide.


    I offer the respectfull opinion that this thread should be moved to Members only. All opinions could be voiced there without worry that a despondent teenager doing a google search late at night on suicide finds this thread and misinterprets it.

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      #47
      I cant help but think what is or isn't appropriate conversation on the CC server isn't an end user decision, any more than whether those same servers are even turned on any given day.

      I've rarely participated in suicide threads, except maybe one or two related to people I knew pre-SCI, that also found their way to CC (RIP Ozy). This is largely due to my lack of respect for the action and utter contempt for its ideation, as an expression of desperation.

      I'm really glad there are crisis counselors out there. God bless them.

      Me?

      I think there are too many people on Earth already, much less ones that don't want to be.

      And, this is the LAST opinion I think anyone should have pushed at them during a crisis.

      But, an appeal to an anonymous web forum re: suicide is going to cause this to happen, especially an appeal seeking honest dialogue.

      Anyway, the CC mission is clear to me, and posted on the Home page, authored by its owners, whom I respect. Doesn't include suicide inspiring, enabling, or prevention services, and for good reason, IMO.
      "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

      "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

      Comment


        #48
        Originally posted by DaleB View Post
        I cant help but think what is or isn't appropriate conversation on the CC server isn't an end user decision, any more than whether those same servers are even turned on any given day.

        I've rarely participated in suicide threads, except maybe one or two related to people I knew pre-SCI, that also found their way to CC (RIP Ozy). This is largely due to my lack of respect for the action and utter contempt for its ideation, as an expression of desperation.

        I'm really glad there are crisis counselors out there. God bless them.

        Me?

        I think there are too many people on Earth already, much less ones that don't want to be.

        And, this is the LAST opinion I think anyone should have pushed at them during a crisis.

        But, an appeal to an anonymous web forum re: suicide is going to cause this to happen, especially an appeal seeking honest dialogue.

        Anyway, the CC mission is clear to me, and posted on the Home page, authored by its owners, whom I respect. Doesn't include suicide inspiring, enabling, or prevention services, and for good reason, IMO.
        I agree.

        Comment


          #49
          Originally posted by Foolish Old View Post
          We seem to be having two parallel conversations traveling in different directions, yet implying that there is a point of intersection. I'd like to ask a few questions and make a few comments to help clarify my understanding of what is being said.

          Suicide v. end of life

          To me, "end of life" is that time when a skilled medical evaluation says that our hearts have a very limited time left to beat or that our brain activity is so minimal that the body exists without a mind. This is a crude explanation, but I don't want to quibble on semantics. This is not an academic argument. To me, E.O.L. doesn't mean that we no longer enjoy our life, find it too difficult and unrewarding, too painful - or any other reason we wish to stop living years before we have no choice of life.

          To me, suicide means killing one's self. In most parts of the United States this self-killing is the crime of murder.

          Don't think that I'm imposing judgment on suicide by those capable of continuing life for years. I'm not. But I do see self-killing as quite distinct from the current understanding of end of life care.

          So, back to the Care Cure Community and the choice of life or suicide. Is the Community about finding a way to live with the challenges of disability and lessening their impact? Or do we also want to explore the option of planned death as a response to painful and debilitating disability?

          I'm not talking about people who express suicidal thoughts and those who would attempt to dissuade them from taking their life. I'm talking about a conversation that says that Care Cure Community supports self-killing as one rational and viable option to S.C.I.

          Are we willing to embrace the decision of fellow members without making every attempt to stop that self-killing. Can we become convinced that they are making a personal choice that we not only respect but SUPPORT? If you know their intent and location, do you call the police? Or do you say Godspeed and I hope you find peace?

          I'm sincere in this question. I do believe this is a personal decision. I don't judge anyone, no matter what their choice. But I do think that there are implications for this community that have the potential to alter the course and the mission. I'd like some clarity in just what positions are being advanced. I do think that everyone is sincere and thoughtful. Yet I don't think that the positions are clear.
          so i am only speaking in reference to ket as he presents a classic case of what the difference between end of life care and suicide(i've already given my definitions for both) he's spoken with his medical team (who has told him that this last treatment is a crap shoot and after that nothing more can be tried), his spiritual advisors have counseled him, his psych person has counseled him AND he protested that he still has a lot he wants to do and will do those things.

          that is VASTLY different than a person in need of a crisis hotline. in the case of someone like that, it is easy to tell what sort of state they are in via their language and yes by all means talk them down, tell them to use the hotlines available, and if you know where they are, call the police.
          "Smells like death in a bucket of chicken!"
          http://www.elportavoz.com/

          Comment


            #50
            Originally posted by peterf View Post
            We ve all been in that situation it will get better believe me.
            Peter, that's impossible to promise. Many of these people have been suffering for over 20 years with the same issues. Gets better? This isn't a break-up or losing a job.

            Comment


              #51
              I thought this thread was indeed about self-killing and not end of life care.

              Comment


                #52
                Name doesn't to be mentioned, but a CC member confided in me years ago about planning to kill oneself. I even called the police department in the area to do a welfare check on the person. Months later, the person is dead. Some people are truly intent on ending their suffering. For many, life is about quality more than quantity, and when that quality is sucked out, they don't feel the need to be alive because they don't truly feel alive anyway.

                Comment


                  #53
                  Originally posted by Le Type Français View Post
                  Peter, that's impossible to promise. Many of these people have been suffering for over 20 years with the same issues. Gets better? This isn't a break-up or losing a job.
                  This is a big issue i had with Christina.
                  Neither will i approve nor condemn
                  Extremely delicate and sensitive subject, lets thread with caution Todd.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    It's not about self-killing Todd perse, as you put it. It's about discussing the topic of suicide, not about endorsing the act. Let people talk about why they feel as they do.

                    I remember as many probably do Gary M, who over a decade ago called a another CC member and told her he was going to Oregon and he'd see her when he got back. Oregon was his backyard and a bottle of pills, and he was gone.

                    There's a chance if he were able to express his feelings among other sufferers of SCI and depression, it may have helped him to want to keep fighting.

                    I'm not a moderator in this forum, if the appropriate mods feel like moving to members it's their call.

                    But as to the argument that some kid or adult will stumble onto this thread and then say, "Yeah, that's it, I'm going to kill myself now" is simply not credible imo.

                    If such a person Googled how to do the deed, one of the very first returns is a wiki about methods. 5 year olds today are smarter than most adults with technology, believe me, if any teenager wants to kill himself, CC won't be the catalyst. Conversely, it may help people to discuss how they feel instead of turning to Google to find out how to commit the act.


                    Originally posted by Le Type Français View Post
                    I thought this thread was indeed about self-killing and not end of life care.
                    I'll remove the wiki link shortly.
                    Last edited by rdf; 17 Jun 2013, 12:39 PM. Reason: remove wiki link
                    Please donate a dollar a day at http://justadollarplease.org.
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                    Thanks!

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Originally posted by rdf View Post
                      It's not about self-killing Todd perse, as you put it. It's about discussing the topic of suicide, not about endorsing the act. Let people talk about why they feel as they do.
                      I was referring to FO, rdf.

                      https://www.carecure.net/forum/showp...2&postcount=44

                      I was reinforcing the fact we are discussing suicide and not end of life care.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Originally posted by peterf View Post
                        Extremely delicate and sensitive subject, lets thread with caution Todd.
                        I thought I was; I was merely rebutting your platitude. Oftentimes, things are nice to say, but aren't necessarily true.

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Dead on truth.

                          Originally posted by Le Type Français View Post
                          Name doesn't to be mentioned, but a CC member confided in me years ago about planning to kill oneself. I even called the police department in the area to do a welfare check on the person. Months later, the person is dead. Some people are truly intent on ending their suffering. For many, life is about quality more than quantity, and when that quality is sucked out, they don't feel the need to be alive because they don't truly feel alive anyway.
                          This couldn't have been more accurate, at least for myself.
                          I feel like I was warehoused. One I served a purpose; now fucking zip. Yeah, I have people in my life, but it was like I was THEIR caregiver in a way: and that was what my life was meant to be. Now it's upside down contorted bullshit, I exist, not live, but exist. The paras and lower quads, without severe pain, and reliable caregiving can carve out lives for themselves. Those who are not have much more obstacles to face. Sometimes just not worth it..

                          Comment


                            #58
                            someone mentioned that suicide was murder. which set off a hour long search session. by the strict legal definition of murder, suicide does not rate as such as best as i could determine. then i was interested in if suicide was a crime. in many states it does not appear that it is. but i only spent ~hour searching.

                            one question i have is do people have the right to subject others to their, for the lack of a better term, belief system?

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Originally posted by djk View Post
                              someone mentioned that suicide was murder. which set off a hour long search session. by the strict legal definition of murder, suicide does not rate as such as best as i could determine. then i was interested in if suicide was a crime. in many states it does not appear that it is. but i only spent ~hour searching.

                              one question i have is do people have the right to subject others to their, for the lack of a better term, belief system?
                              It was I who made the comment that suicide is a crime in most states, specifically murder. This was not based on "belief" of faith, but on an accumulation of various published statements that this was the law.



                              suicide n. the intentional killing of oneself. Ironically, in most states suicide is a crime, but if successful there is no one to punish. However, attempted suicide can be a punishable crime (seldom charged against one surviving the attempt). "Assisted suicide" is usually treated as a crime, either specifically (as in Michigan) or as a form of homicide (second degree murder or manslaughter), even when done as a kindness to a loved one who is terminally ill and in great pain. (See: homicide, manslaughter, second degree murder)
                              Copyright © 1981-2005 by Gerald N. Hill and Kathleen T. Hill. All Right reserved.
                              Frankly, the legality of suicide isn't germane to my opinion about this thread topic. I don't care. I don't "believe" that many people will reject suicide for fear of committing a crime. If this is an important consideration for others, then they can research the subject as it pertains to their circumstances. My point is that suicide shouldn't be conflated with end of life care provided to the terminally ill. It is something quite different.

                              As to the question of
                              do people have the right to subject others to their, for the lack of a better term, belief system?
                              on this forum - why yes, they most certainly do. Short of personal attack, one can state any belief, opinion, fact or fiction they desire. This is core to why I believe that we shouldn't be kicking around opinions that may cost someone their life and bring irreconcilable loss to their survivors.
                              Last edited by Foolish Old; 18 Jun 2013, 7:57 AM.
                              Foolish

                              "We have met the enemy and he is us."-POGO.

                              "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it."~Edgar Allan Poe

                              "Dream big, you might never wake up!"- Snoop Dogg

                              Comment


                                #60
                                irreconcilable loss

                                " This is core to why I believe that we shouldn't be kicking around opinions that may cost someone their life and bring irreconcilable loss to their survivors. "

                                to whom? my 8 brothers, not 1 of whom has yet to visit me since my accident approximately 13 years ago but are OK if I come see them?

                                My 4 kids? 1 of whom shows up once a year? the closest in town never visited me or sat with me during any of the spinal surgery recoveries, visited 2x in the 8-10 times I've been in hospital.

                                I won't say there will not be loss but really...

                                and am I to live in agony so they are not inconvenienced?

                                actually the 2 people who would suffer the most fully expect this to be my end and they understand and have verbally shared this and spoken to me about it in a meaningful way, them being the only ones even remotely engaged anymore..

                                I have no venom to those who are absent, I'm fucking inconvenient and hard to be around and to watch, but I do not live for them.
                                I answer in the following order

                                My God
                                Me
                                My Family (when they needed me as infants children etc)
                                all else by situation

                                kindly,

                                ket
                                Last edited by ketamine kitty; 18 Jun 2013, 11:17 AM. Reason: type like shit

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