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    Having a meaningful discussion and knowing someone one else cares about what you are going through is coping. I know it has really been hard on this community to lose people due to suicide. I can think of five or so...but they were all very open with their plans or half of them were anyway.

    I think loneliness and feeling alone is the greatest pain that someone can go through. You can be surrounded by a stadium full of family and still be alone in your struggles with pain. A professional can only recognize signs and try to help you work out of that pain but most of it has to be done on ones own. Even though we share a common bond of intractable pain, none of us know what life is truly like for our friends here.

    People in pain are usually alone in their experiences even though everyone knows it is there. That feeling of being trapped in a body that does not work when your brain tells it to and unrelenting physical pain can do things to the mind that most people cannot fathom.

    Being a support for someone else who is going through their darkest time is the most important function of the word "care". If one wants to commit suicide, all it takes is a connection to the internet to dream up various ways. I don't think that is what Bill nor anyone else is seeking here. For those who have made the choice, the what ifs will never end because we will likely never know the answer.

    Even with a professional, there is judgement, sometimes good and sometimes bad. I don't think anyone needs to be judged because they just can't stand the pain of living anymore.

    I look at this thread as an example of caring about CC members who perhaps have a greatest need for compassion and understanding
    No true(er) words have ever been spoken.
    T12-L2; Burst fracture L1: Incomplete walking with AFO's and cane since 1989

    My goal in life is to be as good of a person my dog already thinks I am. ~Author Unknown


      Originally posted by SCIfor55yrs. View Post
      There are some CC members who do not have access to a professional to deal with this.
      Nor will they get that access here.

      Any actionable intent to commit suicide may produce a result which is far too serious, irretrievably permanent and much, much too personal to be bandied about on the internet by total strangers. While there is much wisdom here, the limitations of our collective ability to help folks with suicidal intent cannot be overcome by good intentions or emphatic expressions. It's nice to think that one may offer the nugget of compassion or encouragement that keeps hope alive and prevents a fellow from taking their life. It's just as likely that one can type words that contribute to that person or someone lurking killing their self. There are resources for those who have decided to end their lives. In my strong opinion, the Care Cure Community isn't built for this role.

      "We have met the enemy and he is us."-POGO.

      "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it."~Edgar Allan Poe

      "Dream big, you might never wake up!"- Snoop Dogg


        There are resources in all states to help those dealing with suicidal thoughts:

        National Suicide Hotlines USA
        United States of America
        Toll-Free / 24 hours a day / 7 days a week
        1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK

        I am sure similar resources exist in Canada and many other countries.

        Not sure what state Scott lives in, but just because a social worker doesn't know about resources for keeping you out of a nursing home doesn't mean they don't exist. Contact your local ILC and ask them to help you with this. They should have a person whose job it is to keep people out, and help them get out of nursing homes if they really shouldn't be there.

        The SCI-Nurses are advanced practice nurses specializing in SCI/D care. They are available to answer questions, provide education, and make suggestions which you should always discuss with your physician/primary health care provider before implementing. Medical diagnosis is not provided, nor do the SCI-Nurses provide nursing or medical care through their responses on the CareCure forums.


          We ve all been in that situation it will get better believe me.
          Warning: steer clear of negativity and boredom.
          You are now part of our community chime in as you please


            Last edited by LaMemChose; 16 Jun 2013, 10:04 PM. Reason: ..........


              so end of life care is a discussion that rarely happens in america. this needs to change.
              the kind of pain that ket is talking about cannot be resolved through yoga or "following your bliss" or any other such nonsense. when your humanity is stripped away and you're convulsing and you are in the grips of immense pain, you CANNOT think of things like art or family or anything at all, you barely can think of yourself. it is much akin to holding sand in a shaking hand and watching the grain fall away and know you cannot do anything to stop it.

              so telling someone that they need to live for other ppl or they have so much to give when they are barely holding onto their humanity is terribly wrong, selfish, and insensitive to what they are going through. before you decide to jump down my throat and call me rude please reread the threads where someone complained about the well meaning but insensitive thing that some AB told them and the emotional spiral that often happens. when your energy is spent on just trying to mental facilities together, you have no emotional strength to deal with such comments. it makes things worse for the person in pain as it feels as if no one is listening to you, your feelings etc are being brushed aside. "well if you just try harder you'll walk again!" type deal. understand?

              how do i know this? because i was that person. at 19 suffering, screaming in pain. most days i was just in the fetal position convulsing and feeling like my brain was about to explode. it took several years, surgery, and alternative therapy to get me where i am today but it can always come back and therefore, while i am semi healthy, an honest and open discussion with friends and family is needed. i've had a few and it begins with "don't tell me i have everything to live for, this discussion is for when i have nothing/don't have the capacity to give myself to live"

              so i really think this topic needs to be changed from "suicide" to "end of life care" because it really is about caring, despite what ppl keep saying. and maybe that way, it broadens the topic and helps build dialogue and encouragement to speak to those around us on what to do when that time comes.

              we ALL will die. and every one of us has the right to die in a manner that is peaceful, full of love and caring. suicide is devastating for those left behind because no one wants to discuss the feelings/attitudes that lead up to it. it's reserved for suicide hotlines and impersonal notes(if you're lucky to get one).

              or, alternatively, when we do not properly discuss our wants and wishes for end of life care, it ends up in court battles and family feuds. terry shiavo (sp?) anyone?
              "Smells like death in a bucket of chicken!"


                and because my crazy cat has a fondness for walking across the keyboard as cats are want to do, she pressed the post button.

                for those who want to have a better perspective on the mind of someone who is in terrible chronic pain, read kafka's the metamorphosis. i read it again while in the hospital for my 2 back to back spinal fusion reconstructions and wept. it was literally my story and exactly how i was being treated and how i felt:

                also watch how to die in oregon. it's on netflix and i am sure you can torrent it. i know a link to a thread was posted about it but seems to have been buried.
                "Smells like death in a bucket of chicken!"


                  CC, by virtue of its purposes, seems the wrong place to discuss suicide, especially when a member appears to have such under active consideration.

                  I apologize for posting anymore than the sentence above the one I am writing now.



                    Originally posted by crypticgimp View Post
                    also watch how to die in oregon. it's on netflix and i am sure you can torrent it. i know a link to a thread was posted about it but seems to have been buried.
                    Yes, post #9 in this thread.

                    Your remarks have been very on-target.


                      personally, i think the term suicide is for ppl who find a permanent solution to temporary and fixable problems and due to a person's despair and depression it is hard for them to see that. they do not see that they have choices and options.

                      end of life care is the opposite: it is a rational, open and honest discussion about quality of life for the individual and involves a full team of people to come up with the best plan for each individual and that that individual has the power of choice. and it should encompass all peoples from those with chronic pain to those with terminal illnesses.
                      "Smells like death in a bucket of chicken!"


                        I'm here. i am not insane and i see this as end of life. It is not ill conceived long term solution to short term problem.

                        All the "solutions/options" have been tried.

                        It is also not not imminent. I have promises to keep and miles to go before i sleep.

                        I think this is a topic worthy of discussion.

                        I see a shrink, docs, spiritual/guide, minister. I don' t need half assed, but well meaning suggestions. it is like just will youself to walk.

                        You are friends and like family and trust we can have meaningful conversation.

                        Thank you for the respect and concern fro most of you and honest opinions from others, I hope you don't find youself in my situation




                          I am throwing my hat in the ring with those saying that this is a discussion that needs to be had and be heard.

                          I work on a crisis hotline for people affected by sexual violence. Our hotline gets calls from people who are suicidal and when this happens, advocates have to operate just like volunteers on suicide hotlines. We assess everyone periodically throughout the call for ideation, and there have been a few instances where I had to dispatch police to someone's residence. However, in my experience, it seems that most people just want a chance to express themselves and be heard.

                          Advocates are trained to facilitate conversations, but I have been struck by how often there is a stream-of-consciousness monologue from the suicidal caller who is in such emotional distress. Typically, the caller does not want a solution or suggestion, just the chance to speak their truth and receive some validation. When the call winds down and everything has been said, the caller's problems are not over, but it seems that there is often a feeling of catharsis and a sense that they can make it through to another day.

                          I think we are seeing a bit of that playing out here in this thread. Reading posts is not always the best indicator, but no one here expressed active suicidal intent. People communicated a desire to be listened to and validated, to feel a sense to community. Some people said that after reading or posting, they found renewed strength to continue living. I didn't hear anyone mention that these posts made them feel suicidal, which I think is worth noting.

                          Many people do not have a family member, friend or therapist that they can discuss suicide with or if they do, the discussion often gets burnt out quickly or leaves the person feeling misunderstood or silenced. I think we should respect people who are here saying that this is an effective forum for them to communicate about this very sensitive subject. Some guidelines have already been established and people are adhering to them. A hotline number has been posted and is available 24/7 for people requiring more than peer dialogue.

                          Finally, I want to say that I appreciate everyone's honesty, concern, and respect for each other. The bravery it takes to come forward when you are coping with depression, thoughts of suicide, chronic pain, and other issues cannot be overstated. I know what it feels like to be suicidal and to act on those feelings. None of us deserve this pain, only support and compassion.
                          In our world constituted of differences of all kinds, it is not the disabled, but society at large that needs special become a genuine society for all. -Frederic Major, Former UNESCO Director General


                            I thought it might be helpful to post this list from my training manual at the crisis center. It is from a short guide called "Understanding and Helping the Suicidal Person." I am not trying to lecture anyone in this thread, just post some information that might be pertinent to anyone looking for ways to support someone trying to cope with suicidal ideation.

                            *Be direct. Talk openly and matter-of-factly about suicide.

                            *Be willing to listen. Allow expressions of feelings. Accept the feelings.

                            *Be nonjudgmental. Don't debate whether suicide is right or wrong or whether feelings are good or bad. Don't lecture on the value of life.

                            *Get involved. Become available. Show interest and support.

                            *Don't dare him or her to do it.

                            *Don't act shocked. This will put distance between you.

                            *Don't be sworn to secrecy. Seek support.

                            *Offer hope that alternatives are available but do not offer glib reassurances.
                            In our world constituted of differences of all kinds, it is not the disabled, but society at large that needs special become a genuine society for all. -Frederic Major, Former UNESCO Director General


                              We seem to be having two parallel conversations traveling in different directions, yet implying that there is a point of intersection. I'd like to ask a few questions and make a few comments to help clarify my understanding of what is being said.

                              Suicide v. end of life

                              To me, "end of life" is that time when a skilled medical evaluation says that our hearts have a very limited time left to beat or that our brain activity is so minimal that the body exists without a mind. This is a crude explanation, but I don't want to quibble on semantics. This is not an academic argument. To me, E.O.L. doesn't mean that we no longer enjoy our life, find it too difficult and unrewarding, too painful - or any other reason we wish to stop living years before we have no choice of life.

                              To me, suicide means killing one's self. In most parts of the United States this self-killing is the crime of murder.

                              Don't think that I'm imposing judgment on suicide by those capable of continuing life for years. I'm not. But I do see self-killing as quite distinct from the current understanding of end of life care.

                              So, back to the Care Cure Community and the choice of life or suicide. Is the Community about finding a way to live with the challenges of disability and lessening their impact? Or do we also want to explore the option of planned death as a response to painful and debilitating disability?

                              I'm not talking about people who express suicidal thoughts and those who would attempt to dissuade them from taking their life. I'm talking about a conversation that says that Care Cure Community supports self-killing as one rational and viable option to S.C.I.

                              Are we willing to embrace the decision of fellow members without making every attempt to stop that self-killing. Can we become convinced that they are making a personal choice that we not only respect but SUPPORT? If you know their intent and location, do you call the police? Or do you say Godspeed and I hope you find peace?

                              I'm sincere in this question. I do believe this is a personal decision. I don't judge anyone, no matter what their choice. But I do think that there are implications for this community that have the potential to alter the course and the mission. I'd like some clarity in just what positions are being advanced. I do think that everyone is sincere and thoughtful. Yet I don't think that the positions are clear.

                              "We have met the enemy and he is us."-POGO.

                              "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it."~Edgar Allan Poe

                              "Dream big, you might never wake up!"- Snoop Dogg


                                I respect your point of view Foolish, i have opened this and not gone far until we as a community decide.

                                And i hope we continue to treat this honestly openly and respectfully.

                                If medical technology keeps me alive, and without it I would soon expire, where does the advancement of science over weigh nature. 5-10 minutes later in SE Asia, and this would have been a moot point.

                                again, i think that some of this is circumstance and perhaps I ride the line of situational ethics?

                                I will post a conversation from my minister/spiritual guide, no time now and want to be thorough and even not interjecting my bias.