Any orthodox Jewish people here?

[Le Todd]

Apocatastasis is the doctrine that all sinners (including humans, Satan and the fallen angels) will be saved and reconciled to God.

Correct, Daniel, it was used by the early Greek church to label this doctrine. Origen taught that the book of Jonah is an allegory of Christ and the reconciliation of the whole world, including Satan, who is represented by the King of Nineveh who ultimately repented himself.

[Le Todd]

So Todd,

Does that mean that you believe that Jesus existed approximately 2000 years ago and that he is Mosiach?

Yes, I believe Jesus was the Messiah. I also believe that the majority of Jews not believing Jesus was the Messiah was a part of God's plan. "God uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise." He wants to instill humility in all of us. This is the reason the majority of the believers in Christ fell away from the whole truth as Paul taught would happen. The reason why God wants most in darkness is to keep us humble and in need of Him and for us not to boast in our salvation. Self-righteousness is an despicable attitude in the sight of the Lord. It is far worse to pose righteous and not be than to be unrighteous and unaware of your filth.

[hardluckhitshome]

Yes, I believe Jesus was the Messiah. I also believe that the majority of Jews not believing Jesus was the Messiah was a part of God's plan. "God uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise." He wants to instill humility in all of us. This is the reason the majority of the believers in Christ fell away from the whole truth as Paul taught would happen. The reason why God wants most in darkness is to keep us humble and in need of Him and for us not to boast in our salvation. Self-righteousness is an despicable attitude in the sight of the Lord. It is far worse to pose righteous and not be than to be unrighteous and unaware of your filth.

I'm glad I asked because that was very interesting. Thank you for sharing your beliefs with me.

[Sue Pendleton]

Thank you Todd and Sue for your replies.

Sue - yes, there is a large orthodox population in Baltimore. I don't have a power chair, so I don't have to worry about that. Yes, using a power chair would be strictly forbidden on the Sabbath. As for asking a unitarian congregation for help - forbidden (the most common word Jews hear on the Sabbath ha). We are not allowed to ask non-Jews to do things for us that are forbidden on the Sabbath.

I'm sorry Sean. I understood that many orthodox have someone come turn lights on and off on the Sabbath. Is pushing a manual chair considered work or like walking? Or is this one of the troubling questions you need a Rabbi (Rebbe) for?

As non-Jews, there are only 7 laws that you must follow to be considered righteous and avoid any time in Gehenna. They are called the 7 Noahide laws, since everyone alive is descended from Noah. If anybody Jewish is reading this, please keep in mind that we have to follow these 7 laws, but there is much more required of us since we are part of the covenant:

The seven laws listed by the Talmud are[6]

1. Prohibition of Idolatry: - There is only one God. You shall not make for yourself an idol.
2. Prohibition of Murder: - You shall not murder.
3. Prohibition of Theft: - You shall not steal.
4. Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: - You shall not commit adultery.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: - Revere God and do not blaspheme.
6. Prohibition of Cruelty to Animals: - Do not eat the flesh of an animal while it is still alive.
7. Requirement to have just Laws: - You shall set up an effective government to police the preceding six laws.

If someone breaks one of the prohibitions who is not Jewish is there a way for them to atone for their act? Is this also why Jews spend Yom Kippur fasting and going back over their acts for the last year?

Guess I may have to rethink oysters. A question about the kosher laws as for time between dairy and meats; how do you fry latkes up in chicken fat and then serve them with sour cream? I guess most my friends and neighbors are Reform or eat theirs with apple sauce. Honestly, I could almost convert based on the wonderful food.

You must have a difficult life trying to balance the Laws with your new life as a wheelchair user. Good luck with the answers you seek.

[hardluckhitshome]

I'm sorry Sean. I understood that many orthodox have someone come turn lights on and off on the Sabbath. Is pushing a manual chair considered work or like walking? Or is this one of the troubling questions you need a Rabbi (Rebbe) for?

I have continued to use my chair on Shabbat, but I am not comfortable that this is not considered work. I believe that inside an Eruv it would be acceptable but I'm not sure on that point either. I was hoping to meet other orthodox Jews who are in the same situation, but we're far and few between already!

As for your first question, what you are referring to is called a "Shabbos goy" (Shabbos is yiddish for the Sabbath, Shabbat is the Hebrew word) and Goy literally means nation, but Jews use it to refer to non-Jews. So English is "Sabbath non-Jew". There are certain times when you can have a non-Jew perform acts for you on the Sabbath: When the non-Jew would be in your house anyway and when they know what is expected of them before shabbat:

From wikipedia:
A Shabbos goy (Yiddish: שבת גוי) is an individual who regularly assists a Jewish individual or organization by performing certain acts for them on the Jewish Sabbath which are forbidden to Jews within Jewish law. The phrase is a combination of the word "Shabbos" (שבת), referring to the Jewish Sabbath, and "goy" (גוי), meaning "gentile." It can also refer to a gentile individual who works on behalf of Jews or Israel in a more general sense.
Orthodox Judaism prohibits certain types of work on the Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath. Within certain guidelines (as dictated by the Shulchan Aruch, one of the codified Jewish codes of law), one can request that a non-Jewish individual perform certain acts which would be forbidden for a Jew to perform. In certain households and synagogues a particular non-Jewish person (invariably not a member of the home/synagogue) may be designated as the Shabbos goy for that place. This individual is usually one who would be present regardless of this role, such as a babysitter or a synagogue maintenance crewmember.

That means that you cannot hail someone walking by and beg them to turn off the oven for you or turn on the light, etc - lol. There is a caveat though: you can 'hint' that you want someone to do something for you -- you only violate the law if you directly ask them. So, I could say, brrrr it's cold in here and then if you say, oh i'll turn up the heat - that's fine. But I can't say, "could you turn up the heat for me please". unacceptable!

If someone breaks one of the prohibitions who is not Jewish is there a way for them to atone for their act? Is this also why Jews spend Yom Kippur fasting and going back over their acts for the last year?

This is hard for me to answer because Jewish people really are not trained or taught how to reach out to non-Jews since we don't try to get converts. I do know that G-d hears the prayers of all nations since He is the only G-d. So I assume that if you ask to be forgiven, G-d, who is merciful, would gladly forgive.

Guess I may have to rethink oysters. A question about the kosher laws as for time between dairy and meats; how do you fry latkes up in chicken fat and then serve them with sour cream? I guess most my friends and neighbors are Reform or eat theirs with apple sauce. Honestly, I could almost convert based on the wonderful food.

I do not want to speak badly of other Jews, but I do want to say that Reform Jews pick and choose laws that they desire to follow. How do you fry latkes up in chicken fat and then serve them with sour cream if you are Orthodox? 1) You eat the sour cream by itself..yum?..eat bread or drink a little alcohol ( to separate the dairy and meat) and then you eat the latkes. Option 2) You eat the latkes without the sour cream....wait 6 hours, and then eat the sour cream by itself ..yum again!

You only have to wait 6 hours if you eat meat first and then dairy. If you eat the dairy first, you only need to make sure the dairy is cleaned out of your mouth by eating some bread or drinking a sip of wine...or brushing your teeth, etc. then you can eat meat directly after that.

But you don't have to convert to eat the food . You're still welcome at a Shabbat dinner (yum, I wish it was Shabbat already) as a goy (you learned a new word lol).

You must have a difficult life trying to balance the Laws with your new life as a wheelchair user. Good luck with the answers you seek.

Yes, and I have even desecrated Shabbat willfully since my injury by not observing it. I am trying to get back to being fully observant though.

[dan_nc]

Yes, I believe Jesus was the Messiah.

I realize this is splitting hairs with you, Todd, but I believe many Christians would find this statement incomplete. Heb 13:8 teaches that Jesus is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. Jesus IS the Messiah/Christ.

As far as latkes fried in chicken fat then served with sour cream? That seems wrong to me. As I understand it, chicken fat is considered meat, so serving it with dairy (the sour cream) is proscribed. Alternatives? Frying with vegetable oil or serving it with sour cream "alternative" (like Tofutti Sour Cream, which is both vegan and kosher). More often latkes are with apple sauce. It's blintzes (sp??) made of eggs, milk and flour, that are usually served with sour cream. They wouldn't be served together in a traditional Jewish orthodox meal.

[hardluckhitshome]

I realize this is splitting hairs with you, Todd, but I believe many Christians would find this statement incomplete. Heb 13:8 teaches that Jesus is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. Jesus IS the Messiah/Christ.

As far as latkes fried in chicken fat then served with sour cream? That seems wrong to me. As I understand it, chicken fat is considered meat, so serving it with dairy (the sour cream) is proscribed. Alternatives? Frying with vegetable oil or serving it with sour cream "alternative" (like Tofutti Sour Cream, which is both vegan and kosher). More often latkes are with apple sauce. It's blintzes (sp??) made of eggs, milk and flour, that are usually served with sour cream. They wouldn't be served together in a traditional Jewish orthodox meal.

No, they would not be served together at any Jewish orthodox meal. Scroll up to my last post for the reason.

I've mostly seen latkes with apple sauce. Blintzes are sometimes served with sour cream. They're big on Shavout which is a day when we're supposed to eat a lot of dairy. Don't ask me why though....ha.

[Le Todd]

I was speaking in a historical sense about the man Jesus. It's assumed that if one is a Christian, he believes Jesus is still eternally alive.

Many Christians fail to realize that Jesus' reign will come to an end. But in essence, He will always reign. It's the Father/Son issue at hand.

[doingtimeonmyass]

This is a very interesting thread. Thank you hardluckhitshome for sharing your believes. I've been asked before if I was a Jew because my last name sounds Jewish, although it has a different spelling than the Jewish name. I've always wondered what some of the Jewish laws and customs were. Following a strict kosher diet must be difficult at times.

I have a question regarding the Sabbath. If all work is forbidden to the extent described in post #23, wouldn't cleaning out a leg bag or even brushing your teeth be forbidden? What do you do (or can you do) on the Sabbath that does not constitute work?

Leonard Cohen is by far my favorite singer/songwriter and his music contains plenty Jewish themes.

[hardluckhitshome]

This is a very interesting thread. Thank you hardluckhitshome for sharing your believes. I've been asked before if I was a Jew because my last name sounds Jewish, although it has a different spelling than the Jewish name. I've always wondered what some of the Jewish laws and customs were. Following a strict kosher diet must be difficult at times.

I have a question regarding the Sabbath. If all work is forbidden to the extent described in post #23, wouldn't cleaning out a leg bag or even brushing your teeth be forbidden? What do you do (or can you do) on the Sabbath that does not constitute work?

Leonard Cohen is by far my favorite singer/songwriter and his music contains plenty Jewish themes.

You could set a leg bag aside and connect another one and wait until Shabbat is over. As for brushing your teeth...well...lol. When you brush your teeth, you change the state of the paste itself which is forbidden on Sabbath (you might remember the story in the christian bible when Jesus healed a blind man on the Sabbath by making a paste of spit and mud and smearing it on the blind man's eyes -- the Pharisees were upset that Jessu violated the Sabbath by changing the form of the dirt and spit into mud). They make liquid tooth pastes now, which you have probably seen before and some authorities say that is ok. Others say you can only brush with something lik Scope or Listerine on Shabbat.

There are thick, thick books about what you can do and can't do on Shabbat (there are 39 categories of 'work' that are forbidden, but they are broad...like no starting a fire which means no driving, no bathing in hot water (turns on the water heater), no turning on a light, flipping open a cell phone to see who called, etc.).

Shabbat is not a time of unhappiness. Shabbat is a refreshing time. We eat 3 elaborate meals, go to each other's homes and talk and play board games or read. It's really a nice day not to worry about the pressures of the world and just relax.

[ala]

Sean,
One question one comment.

Why do you write G-d instead of God?

To me, the Hebrews/Jews are the original chosen people. God made a covenant or contract with them. The coming of Jesus created a new covent, but it did not disolve the old original contract. In God's eyes, the Jews must still be the first chosen people.

Before Jesus, the gentiles were pretty much on their own. Jesus came to bring salvation to everyone. It seems to me that God was often disappointed in His chosen people (Jews)--sometimes even angry. He called them a stiff necked people. I believe that God intended the faith he gave His Chosen Ones to grow and be spread to the rest of the world. But free will derailed these intentions, so Jesus came to contract a new all inclusive faith.

I think it is divine irony that is was the same Jews that followed Him and listened to His words that would later call for his crucifixion. I also see a old Biblical logic to the fact that Israel, the promised land, is now surrounded by its enemies.

[doingtimeonmyass]

Why do you write G-d instead of God?

I've seen that before in Jewish writing. I've always thought it was out of respect not to actually spell out the word.

[Le Todd]

I disagree. I think the New Covenant did dissolve the Old Covenant. Jesus fulfilled God's promises to the Israelites and thus the New Covenant is for the Jew and Gentile alike.

In fact, no one is considered a descendent of Abraham unless they believe in the Messiah. http://tentmaker.org/tracts/OldVsNewCovenant.html

[hardluckhitshome]

Ala, DoingTimeOnMy..Behind, and Todd,

I'm going to reply all at once, each one at a time.

Sean,
One question one comment.

Why do you write G-d instead of God?

In Deuteronomy, G-d commands us not to destroy His name. While His name is Hebrew and defacing the written Hebrew word for G-d is strictly forbidden, it's not so clear cut for the English word. Therefore, most Jews do not write the whole word as a matter of a caution. The word is written out when we feel there is no danger or little danger of the name being destroyed or defaced -- for example, in the Bible.

To me, the Hebrews/Jews are the original chosen people. God made a covenant or contract with them. The coming of Jesus created a new covent, but it did not disolve the old original contract. In God's eyes, the Jews must still be the first chosen people.

I suppose G-d could have made a new covenant for non-Jews, but I do know that the original covenant that G-d made with Israel is still in full force for the Jewish people.

Before Jesus, the gentiles were pretty much on their own. Jesus came to bring salvation to everyone. It seems to me that God was often disappointed in His chosen people (Jews)--sometimes even angry. He called them a stiff necked people. I believe that God intended the faith he gave His Chosen Ones to grow and be spread to the rest of the world.

G-d approached other nations and asked if they would be a part of this covenant and nation after nation said no. There always something prohibited in the covenant that they did not like. Finally, Israel said, yes, we will accept the covenant. Every Jew was present at Mt. Sinai and agreed to it. So because we accepted Hashem's rule, He gave us the Torah.

Your last comment reminded me of something funny I had read once: the Bible had to be handed down from G-d or else it would have had to be written by an anti-Semite. The reason is that G-d is very hard on the Jewish people at times when they disobeyed him.

But free will derailed these intentions, so Jesus came to contract a new all inclusive faith.

the Jewish faith is inclusive. Many people think that you can only be Jewish if you were born Jewish, but that is simply not true. Anybody who sincerely wants to convert and take on the yoke of the covenant may do so. When you convert to Judaism, it is considered as if you are born Jewish, and if you are a woman, all of the children that you give birth to after you convert will be considered born Jewish. It is easier for a non-Jew not to become Jewish though because they only have to follow the 7 Noahide laws. When a Rabbi discourages you from converting, he's doing it for both of your sakes. Because if you convert and then dont' follow all of the 613 laws that Jews must follow, you're sinning gravely, and the rabbi would be responsible for bringing you to sin.

I think it is divine irony that is was the same Jews that followed Him and listened to His words that would later call for his crucifixion. I also see a old Biblical logic to the fact that Israel, the promised land, is now surrounded by its enemies.

Jesus was not Mosiach and his claiming to be so was grounds for capital punishment under Jewish law.

Todd,
You are wrong my friend. The covenant that G-d made with the children of Israel is eternal:

C. TORAH OBSERVANCE

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot (commandments) remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

I took the above from the following link. I am not trying to dissuade you that Jesus is Mosiach because you are not Jewish and it does not matter to your soul if you think Jesus is or not. I'm only showing you why Jews do not believe that Jesus is Mosiach:
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vita...andjesus.htm#5

Kol tuv,
sean

[Le Todd]

Sean,

In the Hebrew, the covenant that God made with Israel was olam meaning eonial, not eternal. Olam's Greek equivalent is aion which means eon or eonial. These words are incorrectly translated to forever, everlasting and eternal, but they are clearly words of limited duration if you consider all their usages throughout the Bible.

In fact, the Hebrew Bible doesn't have one word that denotes eternal or eternity because the Hebrews didn't think in eternal senses, their laws and their consequences were abiding in this life only.