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If you have half an hour to spare, here is an interesting interview with Ben Carson

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    #31
    everyone leave gettinup alone. she obvious knows black people well. i would even bet she has a black friend.

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      #32
      DA, you are so funny. Like, Roc Hudson funny.
      Originally posted by DA:

      everyone leave gettinup alone. she obvious knows black people well. i would even bet she has a black friend.

      Comment


        #33
        I will show my ignorance as always - also I haven't seen the Carson interview

        But, isn't it a bit unscientific to believe in creation? It has always seemed that way to me (but I'm pretty dumb so it doesn't count!)

        One day we may be able to read each other's minds and really understand how another person can believe something that seems unbelievable to me. - may stop a lot of wars

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          #34
          I did see the interview and loved it!

          My biggest surprise was that Carson doesn't believe in organized religion because he doesn't like to be controled!

          He said he wasn't religious.

          "Together we stand, divided we fall..."

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            #35
            Originally posted by gettinup:

            NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF RELIGION AND PEOPLES (NARP) et el, 1998:

            "...assuredly it would be extremely hard to trac the eginnings of this particular race of people (blacks) as time has erased their beginning. Further religion, rather, a belief in One God, has been traceable to the furthest anthropologic discoveries this commission has been able to discover."

            Is this enough for you...now i'm done...the idea here was for you, cass, to research this yourself. And, I didn't just blindly say I was right...I said if you study history you MAY find that i am right.
            I wonder if this organization has considered
            Dr. Leaky and his potassium argon testing of bones found in Africa..long before this statement was published?

            <"();:::::::::::::::;~
            Life isn't about getting thru the storm but learning to dance in the rain.

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              #36
              This is a nice interview.

              I have the feeling that Dr. Carson, being a pediatric service provider..may have witnessed the spirit of a deformed child leaving the bones behind.

              To me he seemed a person with many controlled
              passions. Very complex.

              <"();:::::::::::::::;~
              Life isn't about getting thru the storm but learning to dance in the rain.

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                #37
                Good interview - but nothing unique or too original. why all the controversy in this thread??

                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                "do not be too moral. you may cheat yourself out of much life. aim above morality. be simply not good; be good for something."

                Comment


                  #38
                  I am not surprised that a reasonable and intelligent person of faith could accept creationism over evolution, when given true fact and detail to consider. I fail to see where the race of the individual has anything to do with that decision making. I think there are plenty of areas where race does make some kind of difference but this is not one of them in my opinion.

                  Mary

                  If I can see it, then I can do it. If I believe it, there's nothing to it.
                  1FineSpineRN

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                    #39
                    funny is ok, but i rather be smart like you. ROCK smart.

                    Originally posted by gettinup:

                    DA, you are so funny. Like, Roc Hudson funny.
                    Originally posted by DA:
                    everyone leave gettinup alone. she obvious knows black people well. i would even bet she has a black friend.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      DA, since when did gettinup become a "she"?

                      Gettinup, Let's stop arguing about the color of Dr. Carson being responsible for or explanatory of his views. Not all creationists are black and not all blacks are creationists. He is a very unusual man and not amenable to stereotyping.

                      Chick, I must admit that I was quite surprised by Dr. Carson's comments about evolution. He is essentially advocating an "intelligent design" theory of the origins of life. He pointed out several weaknesses of the evolutionary theory:
                      • Few "missing" links have been discovered. If there were really evolution of humans, why don't we have a more extensive fossil record human evolution over the last 3 million years of human existence?
                      • The complexity (and beauty) of life begs for the intervention of some "intelligent" force that created it. Ben Carson used the example of the eye, suggesting that such a complex and beautiful structure could not have arisen out of nowhere.

                      There are indeed several serious weaknesses in the theory of evolution, at least as proposed by Darwin. Actually, after the interview, I asked Ben if he might come back. I would love to organize a debate with him on the subject. Ben Carson focused on several acknowledged weakness of Darwin's evolutionary theory. Darwin proposed that species evolved gradually, through a step-by-step elimination of the unfit. However, we know that there are major discontinuities in the development of species, discontinuities that suggest that not everything in evolution occurs in small steps. Steven Jay Gould (one of the foremost advocates of evolutionary theory) was responsible for some of the research that that species don't always develop by small steps. For example, if you study snail shells, you don't find a fossil record indicating gradual transformation of one shape to another but sudden jumps to different designs, often in closely related species, and sometimes co-existing with each other. In that sense, evolution is a misnomer.

                      On the other hand, the evidence underlying evolution is very deep and very strong. Unfortunately, creationists are not bothering to study the evidence supporting evolution. Let me just summarize some of the evidence of evolution.

                      With the completed sequences of the human genome and genomes of many viruses, bacteria, plants, worms, and lower vertebrates, it is clear that there is a continuity of shared genes that humans have with the lowest creatures on earth. Yes, one can perhaps argue that God did this on purpose so that we would have an evolutionary theory but it seems a little farfetched that His/Her efforts would extend to creating nonsense sequences in the genome that do not express but represent the history of how species evolved from each other. Some 90% of our genome are unused gene sequences that harken back to our origins in other species. If God went to all this trouble for us to have evidence for an evolutionary theory, perhaps we should believe it.

                      We should not be surprised that there are discontinuities in the fossil record. Darwin had limited data concerning genetic heritability in the mid-1800's and should be forgiven for not knowing that mutations can produce dramatic changes. A single gene mutation can wreak huge changes, for example a giant, a midget, absence of limbs, etc. Very substantial changes can occur in a species within a one or two generations, especially in times of stress. If there is substantial diversity already present in the species, a sudden shift in the environment, i.e. an ice age, a drought, a disease, can produce a rapid shift in the species within a generation. It is easy to explain why there may not be a fossil record.

                      People may be looking for the missing link in the wrong place. If you look at the human species, you will see enormous variations of intelligence, ability, and morphology of humans. Ben Carson is right in pointing out that the current variations in human shape probably exceed the expected morphology of any missing link. Within Africa alone, living often side by side, are the shortest and tallest people in the world. The first skeleton thought to be a "missing link" found in Africa, named Lucy, had 13 ribs but about 10% of people have 13 ribs. I know that this proves nothing but it is food for thought. Perhaps the so-called "missing links" are living amongst us.

                      I posed the following question to my students after showing them the Ben Carson interview. I asked them if they could think of five ways that the theory of evolution plays a role in their current spinal cord injury research. I said that if they cannot think of anything, then the evolutionary theory is irrelevant and we should stop talking about it. The deep silence that followed my question astounded me. Perhaps I should ask the membership of the CareCure this question.

                      Wise.

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                        #41
                        Originally posted by Wise Young:

                        I posed the following question to my students after showing them the Ben Carson interview. I asked them if they could think of five ways that the theory of evolution plays a role in their current spinal cord injury research. I said that if they cannot think of anything, then the evolutionary theory is irrelevant and we should stop talking about it. The deep silence that followed my question astounded me. Perhaps I should ask the membership of the CareCure this question.

                        Wise.
                        Well, assuming evolution is true, we should look to our closest evolutionary "relatives" to perform experiments on to have the best guess of what will happen in humans. By the same token, are these "relatives" too close? Would experimenting on them be considered inhumane? Is inhumane even the right word to use?

                        That's just one quick line of thought. Another is the relevance of gene therapy and gene mutations.

                        -Steven
                        ...and frolicked in the autumn mist in a land called, Honalee
                        ...it's worse than we thought. it turns out the people at the white house are not secret muslims, they're nerds.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by Wise Young:

                          I posed the following question to my students after showing them the Ben Carson interview. I asked them if they could think of five ways that the theory of evolution plays a role in their current spinal cord injury research. I said that if they cannot think of anything, then the evolutionary theory is irrelevant and we should stop talking about it. The deep silence that followed my question astounded me. Perhaps I should ask the membership of the CareCure this question.

                          Wise
                          what a great question. i'd never really questioned the idea of evolution because opposing arguments had always been framed within the context of religion. however, i think ben carson's idea of an intelligent creator is fantastic! as for the question, i'm not sure how well i understand the theory of evolution. it's difficult to apply to everyday life because, if it is true, it is a very gradual process that occurs over milleniums, well outside the span of human life. one thing i can say though is that all life appears to be very adaptable to its environment. for this reason it would not surprise me that biological evolution could occur and did occur. perhaps it isn't one or the other at all but a combination of the two? maybe it's something undiscovered? a "one or the other" attitude seems very limiting.

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                            #43
                            Wise, it would be great to have a discussion/debate with Carson on the subject. Would be interesting to hear him expound on his beliefs. On tape please [img]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

                            I can't give a more thoughtful reply to the question posed, at the moment, but I just quickly wanted to say that as I listened to Carson comment on evolution, I didn't really hear him deny evolution per se, but acknowledge the process of change - change that was organized, systematic and purposeful(meaningful). This is consistent with science, if "purpose/meaning" isn't value laden or with moral reasoning and judgement.

                            In my earlier post, I was thinking of evolution by design, as I listened to the interview, something I don't find too original nor unique, in concept.

                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            "do not be too moral. you may cheat yourself out of much life. aim above morality. be simply not good; be good for something."

                            Comment


                              #44
                              I may not be smart enough to answer this. Five ways huh, sci related, hmmm... Ok, off the top of my head:

                              1. Evolution allows for differentiated research study such as limb regeneration - i.e. salamanders, etc.

                              2. The review and study of muscular control and movement. As simplistic as a snake - no legs, as complicated as a millipede - many legs.

                              3. Compensation of function as it relates to survival. For example the theory that rats, due to survival extincts re-learn how to ambulate / walk from necessity whereas for humans learned non-use is compensated for alternatively. Rats don't know they have a choice but humans do.

                              4. Bladder and bowel function research. Guy Ritchie's research study and surgical experimentation on goats due to their similarity to humans.

                              5. Dextrous function and sensory sensitivity research such as is reflected in large spider species, i.e. tarantula who relys on sense of touch to make its way through life. Paras and quads as well as stroke, MS, ALS, victims could benefit.

                              Do these make any sense or am I totally off base?

                              To me, these, among many others, are some of the reasons fundamental evolutionary research should continue in relation to sci.

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                                #45
                                I can only think of one or two ways evolutionary theory plays a role in sci research, but I am sure there are many more.

                                Somehow evolution has made the primitive parts of the CNS more and more hard-wired. If we figure out what caused this to happen we can figure out ways to revert back so SCI can be fixed.

                                ESC can develop into any of the three germ layers that all mammals start off with. Yet ASC can not. In all mammals the spinal cord is one of the first things formed, including the primitive brain (brainstem). As a human embryo we traverse all the steps of evolution. During that process possibility of repair of the CNS diminishes progressively.

                                This, in part, is due to the meyelination of the CNS. The spinal cord is fully myelinated at birth. De brainstem takes some years after birth to fully myelinate, and further myelination of the axons of the cerebral cortex continues beyond that. As more myelination takes place, the possibility for repair decreases. Things become more hard-wired. So did evolution introduce myelin?

                                I wonder if I'll say "off course", when you list five, Dr. Young. Unfortunately I cannot think more creatively than the above for now.

                                "Together we stand, divided we fall..."

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