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Why one doesn't believe in a higher power.

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    #31
    I hope reading this CAUSES you to think, and the thinking doesn't CAUSE you to think I'm crazy....


    Thanks JimmyMack..
    I had to read this through numerous times.
    Then my two brain cells took a break from
    playing ping-pong..and it started to come together.

    No, I don't think your crazy at all..
    Just have to consider our thought provoking
    Steven's comment and reread it again.

    <"();::::::::::;~
    Life isn't about getting thru the storm but learning to dance in the rain.

    Comment


      #32
      1 is the value of one cause and 2 is the value of the second cause. Added them together can never exceed their values unless they are not finite.

      [This message was edited by david65 on 12-06-03 at 03:36 PM.]

      Comment


        #33
        [QUOTE]Originally posted by Steven Edwards:

        If your belief in your chosen deity helped you, then that's good. Others of us find other things that work for us. [img]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

        Out of curiosity, what is perfect?

        Nothing. Yet everything. Just the fact we exist. Without all the facets of existence..
        and if everything was perfect..what would we have to do and why would we need to exist?

        I'm with krstofer: Why can't it just be?

        I think it's just too awesome to just be..
        Why can't a car just be? It has to be built.
        And if it's not built right it doesn't work.


        And a question for those arguing that a God created the universe: If God has no beginning or end, why must the universe?

        Perhaps we too have no real beginning or end.
        More alike recycling. Science has proven more
        to me there is a God then any religious sector. And what's to stop us from believing
        the Bible is as true an account of history as is any other written material..even scientific material? All human endeavors are flawed with ego, varied perceptions and just
        plain imagination and fluff.

        It seems we spend so much time blaming someone that many don't even believe in for
        things that appear to us to be unfair..and
        forget everything that is fair and wonderful
        and just plain awesome. What's it all about
        Alfie?

        <"();::::::::::;~
        Life isn't about getting thru the storm but learning to dance in the rain.

        Comment


          #34
          i think some of you should read when bad things happen to good people
          A CURE NOW!

          Comment


            #35
            Hi Steven,
            If a being has recieved existence by the action of some efficient cause,it is not a necessary, but a contingent being,for it depends upon,is contingent upon,the action of its producing efficient cause.

            Thus there are only two kinds of being possible(1) eternal,uncaused,necessary being,and(2)contingent being,which is efficiently caused.

            Contingent things,things efficiently caused,must trace back to a first efficient cause,which is itself necessary and uncaused being.Consider this Steven : a contingent thing is a caused thing,its caused produced it.If its cause is also produced ,something produced that cause,and so on.If A comes from B and B comes from C and C from D and D from E and so on,than somewhere and sometime we must come to a first cause,which is itself uncaused, which is necessary being. One cannot trace back the chain of causation indefinitely nor to infinity; one must really reach the begining, one must attain the knowledge of a necessary first caused. To say that the series is indefinitely long and to leave the matter there,is to make an intellectual surrender of the whole question,an unworthy surrender which leaves the mind in percisely the same state as if no cause at all had been traced.

            Humans are finite,soda cans are finite,lawn mowers are finite.bats are finite.

            Finite + Finite + Finite + Finite, as in the above illustration can never equal Infinite. You can add finite with finite all you want and it will never add up to infinite.Finite is always caused,infinite is never caused.

            This is a good discussion,people are going to think I'm a freak.

            JimmyMack
            Main source_Apologetics,A Philosophic Defence
            JimmyMack
            Member: New Jersey Commission on Spinal Cord Reasearch
            http://www.state.nj.us/health/spinalcord/index.shtml

            Comment


              #36
              Jimmy, I like your explanation. However, I have a few comments [img]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/img]

              You say:
              "(1) causality exists in the world. (2) The effect of one cause may become the cause of further effects. (3) The chains of cause and effects may be crossed and interwoven at inumerable points, so that many causes may converge to produce one effect, and the influence of one cause may be found in various effects."

              But then go on to say:
              "And to say that causes are infinitely long (i.e., has no begining) is to assert an absurdity. For an infinite number of finite causes is impossible; finite added to finite can never equal infinite."

              You acknowledge that finite can be infinitely added to finite to equal an infinite number of finite cause-effect relationships.
              So, finite can be added to finite, infinitely. Thus, an infinite number of finite causes are possible.

              You ask, "can there be many uncaused and necessary first causes? Can various chains of causation be traced back to first causes? Or, is the first cause necessarily the first cause? We assert that the first cause is one and only one"

              Causes may be an agent resulting from the effects of a prior cause.
              Various chains can be traced back to prior causes.
              How can there be a necessary first cause when an infinite number of causes is possible?

              You assert also that there exists "a being (first cause) that is so perfect that must exist, must have the fullness of perfection, it must have perfection wholly in an unlimited manner....because such a being is self existent and wholly independent of causes. Now causes do two things; they make effect what it is, and they limit the effect so as to mark off its perfections from those of other things. Hence a being that is independent of causes, as a necessary being is, is independent of the limitation which causes impose."

              So, causes result in an effect and impose a necessary limit.
              You assert that a necessary being, is a being independent of causes, thus also independent of the limitations imposed by causes. Therefore, a necessary being, being a necessary first cause, is free from limitation, and thus is an infinite being.
              The problem here is, you must first accept that there is a necessary first cause, which you have not yet proven must be the case.
              For there to exist a necessary first cause, that cause must be finite, or that chain of causation must be finite.
              Can there exist a finite chain of causation with an infinite necessary first cause? A finite chain of causation has a beginning and an end, a first and a last (cause). How could that first cause then be infinite when it exists within a finite framework?
              Your explaination is that because a necessary first cause is so "perfect" it must exist and with it's perfection must exist in a wholly unlimited manner. You have failed to validate this. It seems you are going by faith, faith in the existence of a "necessary first cause" and that necessary first cause being "perfect".

              You continue "Contingent things demand the existence of one, necessary, infinite first cause; Now the world , and all the things in the world are contingent things; Therefore the world, and all things in the world, demand the existence of one, necessary , infinite first cause.

              Contingent things demand the existence of a necessary Prior cause, not one, necessary, infinite first cause.
              The world and all things in the world, being contingent things, would then demand the existence of a necessary Prior cause.

              Prior cause does not assert First cause

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by JimmyMack:

                Finite + Finite + Finite + Finite, as in the above illustration can never equal Infinite. You can add finite with finite all you want and it will never add up to infinite.
                Correct. In other words, an infine number of Finites is possible. [img]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

                -Steven
                ...it's worse than we thought. it turns out the people at the white house are not secret muslims, they're nerds.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Yes chick I am arguing on faith,If I was arguing on fact,there would not be an argument.Of course I've tried to explain the existence of God using a very small amount of text,without using The name God in it,and not one Bible verse.So I think it rings of a true philosophic disscussion.Just for fun can you prove with a factual counterpoint that I'm in error.You know that I believe what I wrote.Hey do you think that the premis was good.

                  JimmyMack
                  P.S. I contributed to the poetry stream,lets see if we can get it back going for a little while..
                  JimmyMack
                  Member: New Jersey Commission on Spinal Cord Reasearch
                  http://www.state.nj.us/health/spinalcord/index.shtml

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Now I have really lost FAITH in mankind, Does no-one ever thank God for what they do have! It sure beat's pushing up daisey's. so most of you beleive we are all just a coencidence!!! ever thought of the human body, when it is all there it is a engineering marvel every peice fit's togather perfectly, God does not make everyone love him or beleive in him. He gives us that choice. as for the Bile being a myth How do you account for the thing's which have been proven scientifaly? finding the ark, why the BC and AD even the devil beleives in god!!!!!!!! as for the church getting money it say's to give as you have been prospered and that it is from the heart "not grudgingly" the money is suppose to be used for spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ. even if you choose not to beleive that is your right. but Please don't knock us who do beleive. for we have that right, and I being of the thought that we or the Universe did not just happen. If it did what caused it??? even scientificaly thing's have to have a cause to happen. If it did don't you think new kind's of animal's or plant's might appear overnight? In school they taught us C Columbus discovered america wonder what the Indian's thought of that. God has given us all these thing's even the Dr.'s will tell you when they have done all they can, they say it's all in God's hand's now and to pray we may not alway's get what we pray for, but he gives us what we need,
                    Thank's for listening

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Prior cause does not assert First cause

                      OK..this I don't comprehend.
                      Let's play dominoes. Line up an infinite amount of dominoes. All standing straight up..something must cause the dominoes to fall. That cause being a force to push the first dominoe over..this the first cause..the effect the next dominoe is caused to fall over onto the next and so on.
                      The cause and effect continue on in finite steps until it goes into infinity..is this
                      defINITE?

                      But...nothing would have happened without the first cause.

                      I'm getting confused here kids..remember I'm
                      fossilizing.

                      <"();::::::::::;~
                      Life isn't about getting thru the storm but learning to dance in the rain.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Excellant Lindox excellant,I see your starting to understand,motion and design are as equally fascinating.

                        JimmyMack
                        JimmyMack
                        Member: New Jersey Commission on Spinal Cord Reasearch
                        http://www.state.nj.us/health/spinalcord/index.shtml

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Shut up and kiss me sister.

                          J.

                          Oh sorry.
                          And the truth shall set you free.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Lindox, so, something outside the boundaries of the line of dominoes was the first cause? But, the question is, how do you know that this cause (the "force"), that resulted in the first dominoe to fall over, IS the FIRST and ONLY FIRST cause?
                            The first dominoe could have fallen over due to the sudden tremble of the table that the dominoes were lined up on. The tremble of the table could have resulted from the referee of the dominoe tornament whose behind hit against the table as he bent over to pick up the whistle he dropped on the floor. The whistle could have dropped to the floor when the knot the referee tied in the string the whistle was strung on became loose... etc...

                            The first dominoe falling over merely indicates some PRIOR cause, resulting in the falling of the first dominoe, thus, resulting in the chain effect of the other dominoes falling.

                            The cause-effect of the dominoes could go on infinitely. But then again, if so, how could there be that FIRST cause if this is an INFINITE chain of events, one without boundaries or limits, ie existing some continuous causal effect pre-post dominoe chain?


                            Jimmy,
                            You began using a logical argument explaining cause-effect relationships, but where you fail to explain the "Necessary" first cause, is where your Faith replaces logic.

                            "Contingent things demand the existence of one, necessary, infinite first cause; Now the world , and all the things in the world are contingent things; Therefore the world, and all things in the world, demand the existence of one, necessary , infinite first cause. This we call God."

                            As i stated, Contingent things demand the existence of a necessary Prior Cause, and the world and all things in the world, being contingent things, would then demand the existence of a necessary Prior Cause. Something being contingent means that an event/thing is likely to be true depending on certain conditions. Something must come Prior to an event to cause that event to occur or increase the probability of occuring under those conditions. What you have recognized was that all things of/in this world is contingent (depends upon) the existence of some Prior cause, not a First cause.

                            I think I have provided explainations to show how you have taken a "leap of faith". I have pointed out some flaws in your argument, and through this, I have shown what I see as errors in your argument. Within this context, you may be in error to say this proves that God exists: the necessary First cause.
                            I can't and wont argue that there doesn't exist some first cause somewhere. I can't because I do not know. To accept a first cause, we have to accept that there are some limits beyond our comprehension of the world and universe(s). I don't know what exists beyond the boundaries of human comprehension. Those boundaties are not fixed. I don't know if there are fixed boundaries beyond that. All we can do is continue to explore our understanding of the world around us and never resign to accepting things as suitable explainations for what we do not and can not know, simply because we do not know. I don't have problems with others taking that leap of faith, but I can not do that because then, I would be resigning to placing boundaries around my understsanding of the world around me (and beyond).

                            ps. I saw that [img]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/img]

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Who or what created God?

                              Alan

                              "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"
                              Alan

                              Proofread carefully to see if you any words out.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                We perpetuate the existence of the anthropomorphized "God."

                                -Steven
                                ...it's worse than we thought. it turns out the people at the white house are not secret muslims, they're nerds.

                                Comment

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