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  • Does a dependent still have the right to decide?

    As someone that is fully dependent, do we still have the right to fire all caregiving support, even if it is likely very detrimental to our health? Do we have the right to just choose I'm done I want to be independent, I want to just be on my own, basically refuse any type of treatment/caregiving?

    Do we have the right to refuse all of it especially the undignified procedures? Or because we bumped our spinal cord inside his eyes do we no longer have that right, is it just assumed that along with our body we lost the capability of autonomy ; This is a serious question on a serious issue!

    If you make this decision to known your caregiver and she contacts the "authorities" or whatever will they just act on it and assume you're incompetent. Because I'm seeing a very one sided narrative, support amongst caregivers and caregiving organization! We are literally third class citizens void of agency to it all. that's how I feel

  • #2
    It might be different in Canada but in the UK we have the right to refuse medical treatment provided that we have mental capacity. If you can demonstrate capacity then I would assume that you know the consequences of stopping care, things like AD from build up of piss/shit damage to skin from lying in it or not being turned, starvation or dehydration etc etc and can explain to a psychologist all of this then you can't really be stopped. If someone were to report this in the UK it becomes a safeguarding issue involving adult social services who might want to test mental capacity.

    I'd consider doing this if my care package came apart and they try to put me in a care home, no way am I enduring that on top of the rest of the shit we deal with!

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    • #3
      Should be an individual's choice, especially when permanently disabled or with a terminal condition. But this is just an opinion. I don't know exactly how the law works, but I do know in the US we can refuse treatment after being found mentally competent. I just have a feeling that it isn't so streamlined and would most likely be met with plenty of resistance. If someone is suffering and there is no cure for what makes someone suffer, I believe there should be a process. Not an easy one, but at least a process to ending the suffering for them. Especially when they are willing to starve or stop treatment. Seems too hard to watch or go through for them or those who love them. Our animals have better options in this case.

      Comment


      • #4
        Thiswas an excellent point a paraplegic lawyer brought up during the process of approving assisted suicide:

        Arvay’s criticisms were personal and forceful.

        “For many disabled people — and I’m one of them — we’ve managed to tolerate and adapt to our suffering and choose life over death. But to suggest that all physically disabled people have to subscribe to that notion is not just patronizing, it’s infantilizing,” he said.


        Bill C-14 is) treating all physically disabled people as children incapable of agency and autonomy and I just find that incredibly offensive,” said Vancouver lawyer Joe Arvay, a paraplegic.

        We are considered "Vunerable" which basically means along with 90% of our body and with it freedom we are also considered incapable of making decisions in regards to our life. It really bothers me that without knowing a single thing about me as an individual, and being fully aware of the extremes I have to go to on a daily basis death is still considered ill rational . To me that is a disturbing rationale!
        Last edited by JamesMcM; 09-30-2016, 05:51 PM.

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        • #5
          The best lawyers always seem to keep me on the edge of my seat. Those are some powerful words. No one can ever truly see what another person lives (or suffers) with. No one should therefore have a solidified authority over their decisions. It needs and deserves a due process. Time, of course. Chances to accept and overcome, etc...After that is done, it's one person's choice; the disabled/sick person.

          I know from your posts you've been injured for many years and still suffering. I know self made BPs are lovely enough, but can't imagine waiting on needed assistance constantly. I had to have it done assisted starting rehab and it was awful. Rode in the Hoyer lift plenty of times. Dropped onto a commode on a chux sheet and away they went. I guess I should feel lucky that next was learning it for myself. So proud of myself!

          But yes...if someone isn't "adjusting" or happy more than they are miserable. If they can't find peace or satisfaction being in a chair or never walking again or dying of any disease- They should have an option. Not for everyone...I'm sure. Such a small percentage would use it. But damn...it should be there. We all get to die. All of us. No one (after due-process) should have to be tortured on the way.

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          • #6
            I think you're over-complicating the scenario, James. Just stop paying for any care you don't want. I doubt the result would be some big legal battle or human rights drama, your caregivers just wouldn't come to work. If that's really what you want, easy peasy.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Scaper1 View Post
              I think you're over-complicating the scenario, James. Just stop paying for any care you don't want. I doubt the result would be some big legal battle or human rights drama, your caregivers just wouldn't come to work. If that's really what you want, easy peasy.
              Yep. 'Legal Right' or no 'legal right'. you have the power to do it.
              "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

              "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

              "Even what those with the greatest reputation for knowing it all claim to understand and defend are but opinions..." -Heraclitus, Fragments

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Denied2016 View Post
                The best lawyers always seem to keep me on the edge of my seat. Those are some powerful words. No one can ever truly see what another person lives (or suffers) with. No one should therefore have a solidified authority over their decisions. It needs and deserves a due process. Time, of course. Chances to accept and overcome, etc...After that is done, it's one person's choice; the disabled/sick person.

                I know from your posts you've been injured for many years and still suffering. I know self made BPs are lovely enough, but can't imagine waiting on needed assistance constantly. I had to have it done assisted starting rehab and it was awful. Rode in the Hoyer lift plenty of times. Dropped onto a commode on a chux sheet and away they went. I guess I should feel lucky that next was learning it for myself. So proud of myself!

                But yes...if someone isn't "adjusting" or happy more than they are miserable. If they can't find peace or satisfaction being in a chair or never walking again or dying of any disease- They should have an option. Not for everyone...I'm sure. Such a small percentage would use it. But damn...it should be there. We all get to die. All of us. No one (after due-process) should have to be tortured on the way.

                Agreed, but I disagree that their needs to be due process if they decide they want to die at the accident site for god sake's, then that's their call they do not have to do a year of dependency before giving them the right.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Oddity View Post
                  Yep. 'Legal Right' or no 'legal right'. you have the power to do it.
                  What absolute crap! Oddity I really wish you would not regard this subject with such ignorance especially when exhibiting a tone of confidence you are 100% certain when you are vastly incorrect in the stance you commonly take within this subject, and For another thing when you have the wrong interpretation of what I'm asking and why I'm asking it . I truly believe you so easily come to this absolutely ridiculous conclusion because Dispite the fact of your injury You have still lived on your own accord and abilities in almost all aspects ( majority of SCIs do), you still know what privacy is, and know what it's like to be able to do anything from scratch your ass to clip your nails,to get out of bed at the drop of a hat on your own leisure. You don't know what entrapment really feels like, Evidently it seems you don't even know how far entrapment can really go,! You've shown truly infuriating ignorance on the subject before saying that "anyone can end their life it's just a matter of conviction"! which is just a load of shit and I'm quite frankly really tired of people living such a luxurious standard of life that leads them to be so ignorant to just how complicated the situation can get. That applies to myself too, very very far stretch from your level of luxury but I still have The ability to speak and communicate this is a tremendous luxury; but I would never make the completely missguided statements that you do; and fact of the matter is I am very aware of what it is to not be able to communicate at all and be completely paralyzed from the neck down not sure if you'll ever be able to talk again unable to do literally ANYTHING but move your eyes/blink and move your tongue that is 100% it! And with certain diseases, disabilities, injuries some people aren't even able to use those two luxuries ( because when we do still have the luxurious control of your tongue at least you can frantically click your tongue if something is bothering you, mind you from personal experience even when someone gets close enough to hear it most people just ignore it , But trust me if you actually live in such a state for long enough you would realize why I call it A luxury and how that is probably an understatement) ,but in some cases are still there mentally; suffering and literally rotting, Being fed and drained through tubes ; not even remotely humane! I was in that state for upwards of three months ( hearing doctors tell my family I would never talk again or breathe on my own and I'm going to have to be fed intravenously the rest my life), and I've seen others there, and guess what some aren't as fortunate as me to regain the ability to communicate and instead live consciously the rest of their life like that unable to show anything even a sign of discomfort or dismay just blank but only on the surface!! They will only die once someone either fucks up or something finally catches them;and their treatment (which they will issue unless you were smart enough to make a DNR very early on in life should be mandatory after 18) is unsuccessful in keeping them "alive". You know what's funny, despite the fact that they know you're still there, able to think and interpret etc. They have seen the test/scans and no doubt they can see the panic andrage in your eyes and facial expression, not to mention frantically clicking your tongue for days straight the doctors barely even look at you, they sure as hell don't explain anything to you they tell your family, and you just may or may not be lucky enough for them to tell them within ears range. At least that was the case for the numerous doctors in my situation, strangely when I was able to talk finally everything changed, when people can't communicate you have no idea how bad they suffer; they literally just rot 100% aware but 100% trapped and are just completely neglected their treated by the medical staff no differently than a janitor treats an unmopped floor: just a job to get through. That's why I get mad when people talk about being bored, they don't know what the true extent of boredom is and how dangerous/damaging it can be...

                  Now in context to much more common situation with only high quadriplegia, Even after making a lot of progress; with my individual injury and other secondary complications the way they are since this happened the longest I've been alone was maybe 6-8 hours while being awake. And for some more severe injuries/ secondary complications when we start getting into the high cervical vertebrae's and don't recover any vital function that's pushing it, unless we are sleeping and set up for sleep but then again if you're dealing ventilators and/or other secondary problems that are out of control even at night that could be a stretch even for a "Night time set up". Now it is so expensive to be cared for when you're this badly disabled, if you want any kind of real daily active free (as much as possible) lifestyle on your own schedule well being completely dependent/ paralyzed it's over $8000 a month, but most people pay bare minimum and get the bare minimum care make do with that, and more often than not family is involved to help. And/or a nursing agency/government organization in Canada it's called CCAC. So all of these people are well aware of the gravity of your situation, CCAC you don't even pay so you would have to contact them and say I no longer need any caregiving and of course they're going to want to know how you're going to accomplish this, and in fact your case managers going to want to meet with you. So unless you can create some elaborate story, most would just say I'm done I'm just refusing treatment, and they may contact authorities, in the case of the family member they may leave after you informed them of your decision and or stop paying them but they will likely call the authorities saying that you're suicidal and are going to let yourself rot! The point is we cannot just disappear, we don't have the luxury, we don't have the privacy many people are literally responsible for us, and will definitely interfere, even if it means one more final unpaid task being a phone call.

                  so my question is pertaining to trying to understand The situation if they do call the authorities, which nine times out of 10 they will what is going to take place, how much grounds do The authorities have! I'm not asking this because I'm planning to start starving myself right this second, if certain aspects and individuals continue then yes I need to be and would like to think I am prepared. As This inquiry started because I'am completely done with being at the mercy of other people because I need their caregiving, I'm not willing to kiss ass, Live on other people schedule and pay a lot of money (on top of every other normal expense) to be told what that does and does not get me, anymore. It wasn't getting better, and becoming quite a lot to deal with on top of the dysreflexia and spasticity. so I asked my mother/roommate/ primary caregiver to leave, she was not leaving so I said I was going to call the cops ( as I can't do anything about that myself, pathetically I couldn't even get a fly out of my house myself) her rationale was that if I did that the cops would not leave me as I am a severely crippled ( A dependent) of course I said that no they would do their job and have no right to inquire or intervene on my livelihood! I'm almost certain I am correct but I'm not 100% certain in that aspect. CCAC was contacted, I wonder what they're take on the situation is but more importantly what they would be capable of doing if they did try and intervene flag my file whatever!, you understand I just want to know the situation! Because the fact is I have read about people that want to choose to abandon all treatment, and because they're so severely disabled basically need people to set them up and abandon them completely they were denied that luxury and kept alive against their will, because they physically couldn't do a thing about it... so for future reference I need to know if people have legal grounds to intervene, and if I have a legal right! Because if they can use my severe disability to clam me as vunerable or mentally incompetent and do have grounds to interfere, then I won't be "capable" of doing it. At least until I prove I am mentally competent, I understand the consequences of my actions etc. etc. in which case I need to be prepared to provide that.

                  But in actuality this didn't really have much personal motivation behind, an argument with a long history and build up may have sparked my inquiry but I just want to know the reality of the entire situation for myself and people in a similar situation. Btw To resort to months of starvation, letting your bowels and bladder explode would be pretty stupid in a country that supposedly allows assisted suicide, either way at this point that is not my intention; I am simply inquiring, maybe other people have personal experience of becoming a ward or even better preventing that from happening. I just want to know. It is a unfortunate but relevant topicwithin the severe/extreme circumstances.

                  P.s I believe the term is called form eight or something like that, deemed mentally incompetent. Whatever, it happens in more common situations all the time. usually where suicide actually isn't a rational outlook,so it actually makes sense. I'm just wondering how much of a hurdle or how prevalent that is given the circumstance a few of us haveso it actually makes sense. I'm just wondering how much of a hurdle or how provident that is given the circumstance a few of us have!
                  Last edited by JamesMcM; 10-01-2016, 12:45 AM.

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                  • #10
                    I hadn't even thought of that. I know EMTs are under rules (in USA) so that they save lives no matter the situation. I believe theres a legal form where even 911/EMT assistance can be cancelled but it has to be signed and ready otherwise they do all they can.

                    Leaving someone to die at the accident would be an almost impossible one to make legal I think. Maybe a solo car crash with zero collateral damage? Hard to say. Just hard to imagine EMTs agreeing, taking a seat, and just calling the coroner. Right circumstances though, to me, the right to be left alone should stand.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Denied2016 View Post
                      I hadn't even thought of that. I know EMTs are under rules (in USA) so that they save lives no matter the situation. I believe theres a legal form where even 911/EMT assistance can be cancelled but it has to be signed and ready otherwise they do all they can.

                      Leaving someone to die at the accident would be an almost impossible one to make legal I think. Maybe a solo car crash with zero collateral damage? Hard to say. Just hard to imagine EMTs agreeing, taking a seat, and just calling the coroner. Right circumstances though, to me, the right to be left alone should stand.
                      yes most people don't think of that unfortunately. I believe in a developed country everyone should be in the system when it comes to medical care, so the ENT can take you to the hospital but once you get to the hospital and go through the system, if you made a DNR about specific conditions you don't want to live with it should pop up first thing for the hospital//doctors to see right away so they can let you die with your integrity and principles un hindered.

                      I also think if someone explicitly begs to multiple witnesses to be left alone, they should leave the man the fuck alone! It's pretty easy to assess the gravity of such a situation, but the person in the broken basically dying body will know it right quick!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        You can verbalize - you can orally terminate all of your caregivers, in person.

                        You can use the phone - you can orally terminate all of your caregivers by phone.

                        You can type - you can email or snail-mail and terminate all of your caregivers.

                        If you want to be left alone - you CAN be left alone.

                        The ONLY reason one proclaims to want to be left the fuck alone but CHOOSES not to do any of the above is that they DO NOT want to be left alone. What they truly desire is to continue living what they call a miserable dehumanizing existence, or is at the very least, afraid not to.

                        Everything else is just the excuses of a scared and weak minded person grasping desperately to whatever meaningless life he feels is left for him, and trying to get some validation for his endless excuses by typing those same excuses over and over again.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by chick View Post
                          You can verbalize - you can orally terminate all of your caregivers, in person.

                          You can use the phone - you can orally terminate all of your caregivers by phone.

                          You can type - you can email or snail-mail and terminate all of your caregivers.

                          If you want to be left alone - you CAN be left alone.

                          The ONLY reason one proclaims to want to be left the fuck alone but CHOOSES not to do any of the above is that they DO NOT want to be left alone. What they truly desire is to continue living what they call a miserable dehumanizing existence, or is at the very least, afraid not to.

                          Everything else is just the excuses of a scared and weak minded person grasping desperately to whatever meaningless life he feels is left for him, and trying to get some validation for his endless excuses by typing those same excuses over and over again.
                          Bullseye.
                          "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

                          "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

                          "Even what those with the greatest reputation for knowing it all claim to understand and defend are but opinions..." -Heraclitus, Fragments

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JamesMcM View Post
                            As someone that is fully dependent, do we still have the right to fire all caregiving support, even if it is likely very detrimental to our health? Do we have the right to just choose I'm done I want to be independent, I want to just be on my own, basically refuse any type of treatment/caregiving?

                            Do we have the right to refuse all of it especially the undignified procedures? Or because we bumped our spinal cord inside his eyes do we no longer have that right, is it just assumed that along with our body we lost the capability of autonomy ; This is a serious question on a serious issue! l
                            Try it. You'll get your answer. If you don't try, that means you don't want to really know the answer to your "serious question on a serious issue".

                            There's no need to explain your decision to anyone. Try it. Fire everyone so you can get your wish and answer. It's very simple - do it today or give them 2 week notice. No explanation, other than you no longer need their employment.

                            Do it.

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                            • #15
                              Gentlemen as usual you are insistent, on misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I am asking I'm not talking about about anything "real time", it may be on the back of my mind every now and then and one of the emergency cards in my deck which is not uncommon in high SCIs given we don't have the luxury lower injuries do in all aspects of life which happened to include the free and proper interaction/ handling with things like rope, guns, drugs etc.! but in NO WAY shape or form am I 100% desirable of refusing all treatment to reach death at this point in time or even when I started the thread not even close, and I have literally made no statement in this thread directly stating anything to logically come to the conclusion that chick and oddity have expressed ! Since you insist if you must know I still have some things I want to accomplish and put in place! But again "as usual" when I bring up certain topics your defensively trying to keep it focussed on my suppose it motives or lack there of to turn around and make me look like a crybaby cry wolf , even if to just convince yourself that that's the stance I'm taking; cause I doubt you're trying to convince a Nonexisting audience You're clearly trying to make a point about something because potentially what I say or have said in past indirectly hit a sore spot evidently your responses exhibit that! Which I am sorry, but to me is quite funny when I never make any kind of attack or insult directed at anyone other than myself, until/ unless they bring it upon themselves, and given the perspective or should I say bravado some of you tried to exhibit it's funny how much my awful writing and "Nothing more" then scared crybaby topics can have such an effect on such self acclaimed "strong" individuals... I digress, if you're going to bother responding read the entire message as to best avoid miscommunication/misunderstanding I would offer any of you the same respect.

                              yet again you must not be reading what I'm saying and clearly not understanding what or why I'm asking what I'm asking! I'll say it again, and I really don't see how it's necessary but I will anyways: As it stand I have no desire to kick every caregiver out of my life at this point which we know what would lead to, I made that explicitly clear, and never once implied that that is what I'm trying to do, However if that was what I wanted to do I know exactly how I would do it, and the answer to the question I'm asking with this tread would be a irrelevant... you are exactly right if that is what I wanted to do right now at this moment that is exactly what I would do and depending how that went over (as in how much outside forces decided to intervene or lack there of) either way more than likely I wouldn't have an iPad to be typing! I am just trying to inquire about what implications someone could run into because there are many different variables that could take place, i'm not asking to aid my future plans I'm not even talking about my individual circumstances only, I'm talking about a wide range of circumstances here pertaining to a dependent individual requesting to deny all further caregiving guaranteeing death.

                              Take for example what happened for me to spark this thread, I live with my mother she provides most my caregiving it is not working for a numberof reasons and a number of things are becoming intolerable for the both of us: Long story short argument ensues eventually I say "you can just go, you don't have to be here" for whatever reason that lead to a more intense argument till eventually again long story short I'm threatening to call the cops to take her out as this is my residence and I pay for everything, I did not care about paying severance or especially being left alone; I wanted to be alone i've analyzed this situation of being abandoned before two things can happen after some time if Decided I still have things to do or the pain is too much I'd have called 911 ( provided I can get to my phone), or if I was committed to dieing and I can handle The process I would slowly without a doubt die. Of course for any of that to happen she would have to leave first! Now she wouldn't, there was no chance of that happening even for 12 hours to give each other a break,either way by intentions were simply be alone at that point I just wanted peace and to stop the nerve pain , Spasticity not to mention mental anguish from getting worse! Things Took a turn When She claimed only One or both of two things would happen if I called the cops :
                              1) she would explain the situation to the cop that I can't physically look after myself at all, they would then intervene and definitely not leave me alone.
                              2) they would have me committed and put into a ward.

                              I explained that I'm a grown man, just because I'm severely disabled did not mean I lose my rights, and even if that was the case ( which it wasn't) that I wanted to refuse all caregiving in order to die given the situation it is not irrational to wish for death blah blah blah, she explained that it's not that simple anymore basically analyzing the premise that now that I am severely disabled I am considered Vunerable a.k.a. incompetent and so on. CCAC was then contacted, she explained that if they think things are out-of-control they could have me committed, I explained that if she wasn't my caregiver and they were handling my care this would not be an issue this would be a violation etc. she disagreed and said that if I tried to refuse all caregiving well being fully involved with CCAC they would be obligated to have me committed. The spinal cord injury rehab actually stated that "Obligation" as well Wayback in the day when I didn't want them to change a clogged catheter ( Long story ),mind you I was in inpatient and that wasn't CCAC obviously

                              Now I have read numerous stories about quadriplegics being on ventilator and/or feeding tubes against their will and asking to be taken off of it and being denied, even one member on here quite sometime ago,which really turns my stomach and infuriated me. So as she was explaining her analysis of what they would do, I remembered those situations and I started to wonder if she was actually right! So I came here, just simply to inquire although technically instigated/intrigued by minor real time events it's acompletely HYPOTHETICAL inquiry: trying to learn from other people's opinions, personal experience etc what the authorities can and cannot do, mostly trying to understand two hypothetical situations:
                              1) someone is fully dependent living with family and being cared for, they decide they want to deny all treatment and let nature take it's course (whether they were told in person, got a phone call, or just never got a check is illrelevant they still live together they're going to know), family calls authorities.
                              2) A fully dependent is using government organizations to get all of his caregiving, the severity of his condition is well documented and The organization and involved staff nurses, case manager etc. are responsible for him. Their informed he is refusing treatment they call the authorities

                              100% hypothetical, no motive other than Curiosity really I just simple want to know what could happen what the authorities could be authorized to do, how that kind of situation would be handled really shows what kind of rights a person has and whether they are affected by their disability or not in societies view. Maybe in these situations the authorities can't do anything other then offer advice, offer "assistance" but could be told to leave and have to abide( this is what I am almost certain is the case, and in my eyes this is what should be the case) or maybe in these situations the authorities like my mother said could actually form eight you and have you committed to a ward! If that is the case then that is a worthwhile discussion in my eyes, that's not very fair like the paraplegic lawyer said that is just assuming that all disabled people should have to abide by The "lifestyle" that are all different, which is ridiculous and not right! And frankly I'm worried that that is the case, that they do have those capabilities not necessarily for myself I could easily figure out a way around thatl, for example by a pool get my seatbelt put back Play like everything is normal well the caregiver leaves and doesn't come back until night go for a swim ( but it still is a really fucked up situation and isn't right in terms of the whole perspective far bigger than just my own circumstance). And just to point out I am 100% certain that even if I was committed, after enough time I would be able to plead my case and either have assisted suicide or Get the initial assistance and agreement needed to deny any kind of treatment and let nature take it's course and rot to death. The potential problem I have is that not as James, but as an individual human with High complete quadriplegia left with a fully dependent lifestyle with no real-freedom and completely extreme, undignified procedures and yet I was committed for not wanting to live like that!

                              p.s The bulk of what I wrote in response to oddity, in regards to people that are not able to communicate needed to be said because he so often states ( from a position of a paraplegic no less) that anyone can End their life it just takes conviction, which honestly probably 90-95% of the time is mostly accurate, but I know from personal first hand experience and secondhand experience with witnessing others there are plenty of cases when an individual is forcibly kept alive, despite being 100% aware yet in no way shape or form able to do anything about it, let alone refuse care/ treatment. I lose sleep at night thinking About those first three months, not in the sense that I'm like wow that was so traumatic! to be honest it was quite substantial, most people's worst nightmare doesn't even equate to what happened even the stories ( yet you can't possibly describe The situation accurately) stand people's hairs up and it was so simplistic I just couldn't move and couldn't speak, it's not like it was a fancy virus or disease, just a bad injury, but what really keeps me up at night is there's been more than a few people in that situation at the age of 20 but didn't recover at all and are probably kept alive for 10+ years like that, their youth would literally be a curse!

                              Now if your guys interpretation were even slightly accurate you guys would be absolutely right if I was writing this thread to get "advice" or in most cases when it comes to whati call "Implementing suicide presenters" searching for drama/Sympathy/attention. well genuinely trying to pretend that I am highly motivated to deny all caregiving " read about to do it, I'll do it I'll do it", crying and whimpering well i type actually ignorantly believing I'm 100% capable of doing so yet I took the time to write on the internet beforehand that would be pathetic, weak, everything you guys said and more! Thankfully that's not the case, and it never was and I hope I made that ridiculously obvious .

                              Honestly maybe I should've put in big bold letters 100% hypothetical question right away as not to "confuse" anyone lol, but I knew damn well The "James you can refuse care it's as simple as doing this and that, you're just too cowardly, weak, and scared, this is nothing more then the writing of the weak little boy who can't cope and is too frightened to do anything about it, it is, it is i sweaaaarrr" were coming haha whether they read the whole page or just a few sentences out of context, scanning to look for the chink in the argument despite no argument being presented ( other than the one they have in their own head ) or what parts sets them off the most it was going to happen,as I said what I've written in the past has indirectly hit people sore spot ( I just wanted to present a different side of the coin, a side surprising so many agree with so many understand,even want to hear yet so few can speak out about, but literally in this particular thread there's no such thing present it was a hypothetical inquiry pertaining to a relevant topic in the most severe cases of SCIs; nothing more) now a lot of responses I get are nothing more than defence mechanisms even when not remotely necessary. And even if I did emphasize hypothetical question , Or take the time to explain the motive right off the bat ( which I thought I did) it wouldn't of mattered, the kind of people that make these responses have A motive of their own when responding to what I write about certain things related to sci "life". So no matter how hard I try assumptions will be made and my " supposed" individual circumstance/ motives will be brought up even or should I say especially when it has nothing to do with what I ask about...

                              p.p.s important note,as I said it would be pretty damn stupid and irrational , not to mention wasteful of other peoples time and resources to achieve death by denying all care which we know can take upwards of three months from real-time situations, in a country that has just legalized assisted suicide; just have to plead thy case! my goodness guys.
                              Last edited by JamesMcM; 10-02-2016, 12:33 AM.

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