Me Before You

[JamesMcM]

It's clear you don't understand the meaning of the words (respect, dignity, etc.) as they're being applied, or just simply refuse to get it as a convenient means to reinforce your critical judgment of others and satisfy your ego.

And AGAIN, coping (be it productive or not) with that which is disgusting DOES NOT make the thing not disgusting.

No need to continue repeating again and again to someone refusing to hear.

Oh I hear you loud and clear, I understand your perspective all too well I just think it's ridiculous. Here's the definition because I just don't listen to the Alpha and Omega's:

the state or quality of being worthy of honor or respect.
"a man of dignity and unbending principle"

Well One thing we all know for sure there's a lot of bending of principles when it comes to "coping" with SCI, that certainly is not subjective. That is unless you were some kind of disturbing and disgusting individual in your "previous life ". Of course ones interpretation of honour/ principles is subjective, some people have higher expectations some people have lower ones, but I feel principles are pretty much universally The foundation of honour...

If you're not going to read what I said, and continue only to look at and discuss my individual circumstance rather than the "situation" as a whole; then it's as simple as this: I'm not willing to permanently drop my expectations, and completely abolish (forget bending) my principals just to keep living a life where I am physically unable to do anything independently, let alone anything I truly value or enjoy. Frankly a life I find horribly repulsive to my core and have absolutely no desire to delude and pander myself to "adapt", using ridiculous one liners that appeal to the naive and desperate; and delusional reverse psychology (especially from sources that live the The repulsive lifestyle without any attempt at eradicating it for themselves and others basically the world, most likely wholeheartedly believe in the one liners) as motivation. Especially if I can contribute to something (provided my demise) that is FAR FAR more worthwhile then collecting cathaters and diapers. Fact is the cause is more worthwhile then pretty much any living thing on this earth will ever hope to accomplish,so I would be beyond honoured to contribute as much as I can even if it is minute...

However If you'd actually like to discuss what I talked about, please let me know!

[JamesMcM]

Ahhhh...I see.

I recall James brining up some Clayton worship in a past thread in which I responded as I am apt to do.

I have talked about Clayton before, I wouldn't call it praise in a lot of ways I disagree with the harshness on some of his perspectives especially towards himself given his function and obvious independence, handling all the dirty stuff and hard stuff on his own. But he does touch on many subjects that myself and others relies are a reality most choose to ignore sci, able bodied does not matter,it's just more prominent and obvious not to mention condoned in the disabled world.

We have discussed in a few times yes, but I read a thread that was created long before I was a member by someone else in which you for were either the first or one of the first people to comment and you called him pretty much weak and cowardly for what he did. Which all of the emphasizes the hypocrisy, and clear contradictions in your perspectives and stance you take on him killing himself, and then 180 switch when taking a stance on me not killing myself, its kind of laughable. But like I said the disabled community is riddled with contradictions on disabled life and coping, how strong they are, how active they are, how weak they are, how lazy they are I've seen it again and again. At the end of the day it's all because it's an extremely unnatural state to be in, so it's inevitably going to happen.

[Oddity]

I have talked about Clayton before, I wouldn't call it praise in a lot of ways I disagree with the harshness on some of his perspectives especially towards himself given his function and obvious independence, handling all the dirty stuff and hard stuff on his own. But he does touch on many subjects that myself and others relies are a reality most choose to ignore sci, able bodied does not matter,it's just more prominent and obvious not to mention condoned in the disabled world.

We have discussed in a few times yes, but I read a thread that was created long before I was a member by someone else in which you for were either the first or one of the first people to comment and you called him pretty much weak and cowardly for what he did. Which all of the emphasizes the hypocrisy, and clear contradictions in your perspectives and stance you take on him killing himself, and then 180 switch when taking a stance on me not killing myself, its kind of laughable. But like I said the disabled community is riddled with contradictions on disabled life and coping, how strong they are, how active they are, how weak they are, how lazy they are I've seen it again and again. At the end of the day it's all because it's an extremely unnatural state to be in, so it's inevitably going to happen.

I've been posting comments about suicide here for nearly a decade. You'll be hard pressed to find much inconsistency, with the exception that I did change my point of view as to whether, or not, it was an appropriate subject for this site. The owner of the site doesn't object, apparently, so that's that.

If you read my posts for understanding, rather than just to reply, you'll find they consist of 3 basic premises, none of which contradict each other (without an amount of conflation and assumption on the part of the reader):


A. The right to suicide is a natural right. Our lives are our own to dispose of, or, to live. It should not be illegal.

B. Suicide is available to everyone. The barrier is psychological, not physical.

C. I don't respect giving up for the sole reason of having an SCI, generally speaking.


Just because I recognize everyone's right to choose for themselves doesn't mean I also have to respect whatever anyone chooses. They aren't the same thing, or based on the same ideals within me.

For the record: I've never encouraged you to end your life, however, I have reminded you the choice is yours, and that you have the power to do it, should you so choose. Particularly following posts of yours implying, or stating frankly, that as a quad you don't have the option.

[JamesMcM]

In many cases. yes.
I respect those who can acknowledge that their life has deteriorated beyond a point that is respectable to them. I don't think it's right to live a life dependent on others just to exist.

Perhaps you enjoy someone wiping your ass?

Or maybe you delude your mind just enough to where it doesn't bother you.
Either way, congrats.


It's difficult for me to have much self respect when having to endure the things that quads have to.
I can't ignore my realities. And I can't respect indignities.





Sure, I see things as they are, as they relate to me and the things I value and respect.
Quadriplegia? Nah.

As I said, I wish I could embrace it.
It's not something I respect.


Are you a complete quad? Just curious

I fully understand your perspective, and even in some cases can relate to it. But what I don't understand is that you wish you could embrace it, you wish you could delude yourself,basically not be disgusted in yourself for what is done to you what you allow to be done.

I just don't get that, you clearly don't believe the bullshit sent your way by "rehab", other gimps etc; you can see the situation for what it is... But to each their own. We have a lot of similar views on some things, but for myself The only shred of self respect I feel is for my will to NEVER accept this, never considering completing a Insignificant task an accomplishment simply because I bumped my spinal cord. The balls the address this filth for what it is and most importantly speak of it truly emphasize it's deplorable tragic nature publicly both in person and over the Internet. Never even remotely accepting a "compliment" over something mundane no real reason other then cause I'm in a chair! Most importantly My refusal to fully commit and accommodate this "life" and my undaunted desire tofight this disability anyway I can for my self and the current/ future afflicted; rid this World of it's disgusting yet accepted existence ( Long overdue because we won't do anything we have only ourselves to blame , including for the next wave of injuries that will just keep coming ).

Over my rotted corpse would I want or wish to embrace it. When iam out and about, sometimes having a good time I truly get embarrassed even ashamed that someone may think that I am happy with my dependency inducing disability. Even though they more than likely think it's comendable ignorant or not as they may be either way it means nothing to me. The only persons interpretation, the only persons judgement i care about on the subject is my own...

[lynnifer]

Frankly a life I find horribly repulsive to my core and have absolutely no desire to delude and pander myself to "adapt", using ridiculous one liners that appeal to the naive and desperate; and delusional reverse psychology (especially from sources that live the The repulsive lifestyle without any attempt at eradicating it for themselves and others basically the world, most likely wholeheartedly believe in the one liners) as motivation. Especially if I can contribute to something (provided my demise) that is FAR FAR more worthwhile then collecting cathaters and diapers.

I have to ask what your point is as well? You either deal or don't?

Coming here and insulting the rest of us that choose to deal solves what?

[eskay]

zzzzz

[JamesMcM]

I've been posting comments about suicide here for nearly a decade. You'll be hard pressed to find much inconsistency, with the exception that I did change my point of view as to whether, or not, it was an appropriate subject for this site. The owner of the site doesn't object, apparently, so that's that.

If you read my posts for understanding, rather than just to reply, you'll find they consist of 3 basic premises, none of which contradict each other (without an amount of conflation and assumption on the part of the reader):


A. The right to suicide is a natural right. Our lives are our own to dispose of, or, to live. It should not be illegal.

B. Suicide is available to everyone. The barrier is psychological, not physical.

C. I don't respect giving up for the sole reason of having an SCI, generally speaking.


Just because I recognize everyone's right to choose for themselves doesn't mean I also have to respect whatever anyone chooses. They aren't the same thing, or based on the same ideals within me.

For the record: I've never encouraged you to end your life, however, I have reminded you the choice is yours, and that you have the power to do it, should you so choose. Particularly following posts of yours implying, or stating frankly, that as a quad you don't have the option.

This is not the contradicting I speak of, you address Clayton as weak and cowardlyfor for what he did, yet you address me as too weak and scared to end my life!? So which is it is suicide and action of weakness for the weak and cowardly, or does suicide take tremendous will, commitment and nor shortage of strength and bravery? We both know the The reality is the answer it's a complex one but it is what it is.


Oh stop, nobody has ever suggested you have told anyone to end their life that doesn't need to be said... But never once have I said that the option of suicide is not there for quadriplegic, not even remotely when you write things like this it makes me wonder if you even read anything I've written. And just go off of what you think I wrote and what I have said is very complicated and has very many factors to it, in regards to high cervical injuries and suicide! but first just to make this clear right now, I can't believe someone as far as I can tell relatively intelligent ( most likely in some ways more intelligent than myself) can sit there and say something as na?ve as suicide is available to everyone! Please explain to everyone that is affected by very severe stroke, brain injury, alzheimer's just to name a few conditions how it's simply a psychological Barrier preventing them from ending their lives. When it's bad enough these people are like wards of the state, they have less rights than prisoners to be quite honest I don't know if you've seen this kind of ugly reality, but It can get to the point where not only can they not move and do anything; literally anything on their own, but also unlike quadriplegics they can't even speak; they cannot direct care. Every day they're kept alive given a whole host of jobs ranging from painkillers to antidepressants despite the fact in the worst cases we don't even know if they are even aware or not but likely as a preventative safety measure we give them everything to dope them right up! And other " slightly less severe" cases they still can't move or talk, or express themselves but they can make little noises, express awareness by moving/ blinking their eyes or maybe their tongue on command! In either of these situations that hundreds of thousands of people are in right now, many of which are probably begging to die without us ever being able to know it, how in the great blue blazes could any of them end their life,?? they can't even request assisted suicide, Certainly can't deny medical treatment/intervention which will always be given at the doctors in charge discretion and actually in Canada even after this new assisted suicide law and in most of the states in America family can't even have them put out of their misery,! So your second statement is absolutely ridiculous right from the get go, and you keep saying it and I keep saying the same thing you are just flat out wrong!

now in regards to quadriplegia, and what I have and haven't said in that regards. right off the bat even a C1 injury can technically end their life by starving themselves and or refusing treatment ventailtor, bowel care etc however as has been seen many times when these people are in patients is it is not unheard of for them to be denied that right by being fed through a tube of which for injuries no arm movement there is no physical way to take out, like it or not there's nothing they can do about cleaning us up after we've had a bowel movement either and the catheters going to do it's job whether you wanted to or not. Even when you're not an inpatient your caregivers could call the authorities on you and you could be again denied that right. In which case you will have to go on a long arduous battle of proving that you are perfectly competent, which is just so disturbing choosing to die rather than remain completely dependent is a completely rational thing no matter what people want to think. now for most C-5 completes and up , Even if there is no outward interference but very important no assistance and the disabled individual is left to their own devices; then the only sure fired guaranteed way is again to refuse all medical care starvation, dehydration let the bowel and bladder's rot! Now as reality has shown us two things

1)it's been documented before it's happened before and it can take a very long time upwards of three months.
2) now these are obviously the tragedies! Continuing: despite The truly impressive conviction and willpower (borderline superhuman) these individuals obviously had, nothing was explicitly stated that they let their bowel and or/bladder rupture or any of the other horrible things that would obviously ensue by not managing them at all , And at least in the case of the young girl that went into the group home specifically to starve it was noted that she received very small doses of water throughout the ordeal obviously because going into it completely with nothing would be another thing entirely of this already indescribable event. but that's not to say that nobody has denied everything resorted to letting everything rot 100% and it just was never made public!

Which leads me to what I actually have said about the situation with quadriplegia and suicide, we do not have the luxury/ right to numerous methods and options, The only real sure fired way that we can do it completely independently is pretty much starvation (and obvious things like dehydration, kidney failure, bowel rupture) which in every sense of the way is wrong, it's so completely wrong. You don't understand what it is to be quadriplegics and fully dependent trapped, helpless,defenceless 24/7 but I like many others ( in reality a small minority in the spinal cord injury population) do and truth be told it keeps me up at night thinking about the people that have and will resorted to starvation and/or basically completely letting the chronic paralysis consume you on multiple different levels it's beyond painful, it's ugly as an ugly death can get inside the body and outside; site and smell, and most importantly it's LONG at least a week, at most over three months! Yeah that's real conviction, but that's also a different thing entirely (if The fact that people have resorted to such measures doesn't emphasize the need for medical intervention in regards to quadriplegia I don't know what does but gets brushed under the rug).

If someone like you a paraplegic or Clayton where to kill themselves one would shoot himself, electrocute himself, hang himself, stab himself, drug him self ( now some quads especially incomplete and or lower cervical can get around to doing these things it's more risky in the sense of it being a screwup failure but some still can get it done, especially if their house is modified with drawers they can reach and open obviously not everybody has that, but these less severe injuries can even get to doing it quickly even privately when everyone's gone even leave a note of warning so nobody sees but when it gets into the C-5 complete injuries and up that starts to become much more likely to be physically impossible ) both of us know damn well that of all the quadriplegics that resorted to that long arduous route had any other options at their disposal which would make it over with in seconds at worst minutes, Starvation wouldn't of even been considered! but they didnt so it took weeks of rotting and suffering agony, filthy dark and horrific exit that obviously more than one person most likely family/ Friends included had to bear witness to on multiple occasions for a long period of time. As I said this is a different thing entirely in the most bizarre and disturbing circumstances you hear about someone throwing themselves into a alligator or tiger pit at a zoo, or other things like actually my mother's friend just recently cut his throat with a chainsaw ( he failed because he didn't fully commit and blacked out) but suicide is a daily occurrence, but those are the kind of bazaar cases where you just wonder why that way, and it's just that little bit more troubling before you move on with life. but as bizarre as they were; you know what they have in common they are still relatively quick, you're not going to be laying around suffering for the rest of the day let alone a few months! In this awful world when people die of starvation because unfortunately it does happen still, it's certainly not by choice it would require going against and resisting every instinct we have for a long period of time, not just one quick irrational moment of tremendous mental anguish where nothing other than ending the suffering is thought about leading to a reaction and it's all over before you know it. The people that have to voluntarily not only resort to starvation but stay committed to it are only the extremely sick and disabled, and obviously it dosent just consist of starving given their conditions ( so even if we do find a once in a blue moon anomaly where a able bodied lunatic voluntarily starved himself in the name of some Zeus it's still not remotely the same thing for a number of different variables and reasons). It's disturbing, it's not right... So when someone like yourself that has so many options none of which on your mind would be starvation/ letting the organs go unmanaged with the luxurious God-given right to do it however you see fit, it really is quite ignorant and arrogant for you to go on about how suicides only barrier is psychological...


Your third point is your perspective completely understandable. However as I've said many times I couldn't feel stronger that spinal cord injury is far to vague a term and the disability that you have is not remotely the same thing as those with high quadriplegia;and I wish it wasn't under the same diagnosis/classification despite being caused by the same mechanism in all rationality the two separate conditions shouldn't even remotely be associated. I only say this because I have tremendous respect for someone that is fully dependent and ends their life to rid themselves of indignity, no real freedom takes the only other option rather than abjure and voluntarily resort to begging for help constantly every day for the rest of their life and of course rids their family, Friends, previous lovers ( again in the case of the Young girl that moved into a group home so her boyfriend could fully move on and obviously for her own sake as well) and in some ways not always but for a lot of severely disabled dependets society picks up some of the burden in some cases a lot of it! These few certainly are stronger and braver than I, as well as many others. And on the other side of the coin, I can't entirely respect what Clayton did after all he was independent each day was dependent on his own strength, ability and resilience all of the nasty stuff was done by himself in privacy. And suicide impacts other people, I've seen this firsthand, so now especially in our society and only the rarest most extreme circumstances justify it. However I greatly respect his perspective, it truly was a breath of fresh realism having said that whether he realized it or not the man did perform seppuku , And then also considering he was having to perform undignified acts ( although on his own, which in my eyes makes all the difference) and it was clearly a dishonour to himself and his values! so at the same time I cannot say I do not respect what he did at all, because with all that in mind in a very real way I do.

[JamesMcM]

I have to ask what your point is as well? You either deal or don't?

Coming here and insulting the rest of us that choose to deal solves what?

OK Lynnifer , But try to understand and this kind of situation has always happened to me because of my off the pre paved path of coping conversations. I wasn't being insulting, I was talking about the situation as a whole and not directing any animosity at anyone, just explaining that certain people are literally not designed to cope or a number of different reasons where as others are more than likely more pre-disposed to coping again for a number of different reasons, all based on individuality. I then went in to how I analyze this kind of thing, I then explained certain trends, contradictions and a very obvious procedure Amongst the whole process of coping, with medical professionals, other disabled people etc. it was all a very long thing where I basically wrote essays. I then touched into subjects that are troubling how these "coping mentalities" impact the process of spinal cord injury research, and which has been relevant to the start of this thread the ridiculous atrocity that happened after this movie and because of these common mentalities, I went into anything and everything in regards to what I believe to be it origins,how obviously fragile it is etc. It was a very specific yet broad subject. But all they select few continue to do was focus on me as an individual, obviously it's in some form of the fence like the fact that they just disregard everything else and focus in on a few points to target myself and twist my words obviously shows that their guard is up! Despite the fact that that is completely unnecessary go look through many of my threads after 2014 I learned that it is more appropriate and ( as to avoid these kind of responses) to have a proper discussion I make it clear that I'm speaking for myself ( by usually makeing brackets and say 'but that's just me", "or to each their own" " I only see it that way for myself" that kind of thing )when I do say something that could be interpreted as a insult for whatever reason, but apparently these kind of topics are throwing stones in a glass house and OK I'm not being rude I'm just stating the obvious. No matter what I do.

Evidently the focus continued to be pressed towards me, rather than any other of the many paragraphs that we're talking about The entire spectrum that I am addressing as an issue, even brought up a dire opinion that if the tragedy and indignity of the depended lifestyle was brought to the public I feel the disabled community would fight against it rather than use it to help the cause! NOPE completely skipped over, despite being an extremely VITAL conversation for us to have, that unfortunately nobody else is going to bring up; it's like we're all scared to bring it up. For god sake's on the other spinal cord injury forms and they just continued bitch about the movie and make irrational statements. Then things start needing to be said, when these few (that are obviously sitting in a glass house i'm not saying that their actions are literally expressing that, disregarding most of everything I'm saying interpreting it as an insult despite me blatantly going out of my way to try and avoid that interpretation. They are very evidently scanning through everything I write just to find what bugs them, and even more annoying what they think is a chink in the chain of my supposed argument that they have created themselves that has nothing to do with the actual discussion/argument (I Will admit) that I am talking about.) start to talk about strength and weakness, the irony isn't funny anymore! And it's getting annoying and Unconstructive to any points I try to address ( can't say this without being arrogant ) but fact is some of which are very important, and involve something very very big that is spinal cord injury research and our contribution , But frankly taking these indoctrinated flimsy coping mechanism stance and calling people week that don't follow is also a problem. Why because those that fall into that crap, are much less likely to contribute to the cause, the ones that want to fight The disability, and get rid of it's deplorable existence they need to express their ideals too so anyone that says "this dependent lifestyle is disgusting, I'd rather be dead" " why are we not making an out cry" etc only to be bambarded with copouts, one liners, reverse psychology as if none of us left rehab. well I'm going to be one of the few motherfuckers to at least attempt to address why that crap comes flying from every direction, I'm going to put in my perspective on why accepting and living on like this isn't necessarily the strongest most noble thing to do. We The afflicted need to help this research, which means we need to fight so we need soldiers, who are motivated and we need to emphasize that this lifestyle is deplorable and it sure as The sky is blue is not OK!! For ourselves, if not ourselves at least for the future poor bastards that are going to be injured, and I'm not seeing enough of that not even remotely! And frankly I can see why that is, and it's as about as far away from courageous and motivational as it can get!

And then in regards to that comment you quoted well The responses continue to to be usually a cop out along the lines of "well you can either accept it get living, or die" which isn't true you could also put your resources and time into recovery/ the cause , neuro physiotherapist, state-of-the-art exercise equipment, clinical trials, advocacy, fundraising etc which is what I try to do,and I would hope more people would too. So finally I just thought if I made my harsh unbendable perspective since day one and very clear that maybe would stop repeating that, not be on the defensive skipping over everything, and or thinking they are trying to give me good advice to "help me". That's all...


Honestly I feel like the spinal cord injury community is like the panda bear, we could do it we could florist we could make a difference. But we don't so we become too lazy to mate,sit around and have the zookeepers hand us our Precut bamboo and get all too comfortable in that unnatural lifestyle... Lol jokes aside I feel like the SCzi community is the least committed of all the other serious conditions; we should be embarrassed. But instead we tell ourselves were strong for living with it, and we just shove our heads up our own ass and not think about the fact that other people are going to end up in the same position we were the first day and then they're going to have to commit to the same lifestyle their life is going to be completely destroyed, and it just continues to spread!

[Oddity]

Fair enough, on several points. I often skim the center of your posts, they are so long, and my attention span so short. I tend to focus on the first and last paragraphs with any amount of scutiny. I could indeed be missing much of the subtly of your points of view.

My feelings about Clayton are charged with the emotion of intimacy, and not a good barometer of anything other than themselves.

If you recall our earliest interactions, I was positing you didn't need to be miserable and you were positing that anything other than being miserable was being delusional. My intention was (and is) to present points of view that forward the idea that "misery is as misery does", rather than that of misery being an objective fact of a particular state of being.

For folks caught in the throes of misery this can really piss them off. I understand that. That's me being an asshole, preferring tough love over patting people on the head and commiserating. It's probably a good thing I'm not a professional counselor.

I went from trying to convince you that life could still be fulfilling to wondering why you'd continue to bother with living if you were so convinced of the opposite. Especially when you enable and commiserate with other people in pain, which is an even bigger tragedy IMO.

I don't like seeing people in pain, and I KNOW it is possible to transcend the pain of SCI (of any sort), because I've known SO MANY people that have done it, regardless of the level of SCI. I'll continue to push back against the idea that it's delusional to cope well and factual to hate one's existence. Just as I'm sure you'll continue to post about people's fingers up your butt, perhaps the most common theme across your many posts, almost fetish-like.


(And, the difference between para and quad are obvious, which is why I stick to ideas and comments that are universally applicable)

This is not the contradicting I speak of, you address Clayton as weak and cowardlyfor for what he did, yet you address me as too weak and scared to end my life!? So which is it is suicide and action of weakness for the weak and cowardly, or does suicide take tremendous will, commitment and nor shortage of strength and bravery? We both know the The reality is the answer it's a complex one but it is what it is.


Oh stop, nobody has ever suggested you have told anyone to end their life that doesn't need to be said... But never once have I said that the option of suicide is not there for quadriplegic, not even remotely when you write things like this it makes me wonder if you even read anything I've written. And just go off of what you think I wrote and what I have said is very complicated and has very many factors to it, in regards to high cervical injuries and suicide! but first just to make this clear right now, I can't believe someone as far as I can tell relatively intelligent ( most likely in some ways more intelligent than myself) can sit there and say something as na?ve as suicide is available to everyone! Please explain to everyone that is affected by very severe stroke, brain injury, alzheimer's just to name a few conditions how it's simply a psychological Barrier preventing them from ending their lives. When it's bad enough these people are like wards of the state, they have less rights than prisoners to be quite honest I don't know if you've seen this kind of ugly reality, but It can get to the point where not only can they not move and do anything; literally anything on their own, but also unlike quadriplegics they can't even speak; they cannot direct care. Every day they're kept alive given a whole host of jobs ranging from painkillers to antidepressants despite the fact in the worst cases we don't even know if they are even aware or not but likely as a preventative safety measure we give them everything to dope them right up! And other " slightly less severe" cases they still can't move or talk, or express themselves but they can make little noises, express awareness by moving/ blinking their eyes or maybe their tongue on command! In either of these situations that hundreds of thousands of people are in right now, many of which are probably begging to die without us ever being able to know it, how in the great blue blazes could any of them end their life,?? they can't even request assisted suicide, Certainly can't deny medical treatment/intervention which will always be given at the doctors in charge discretion and actually in Canada even after this new assisted suicide law and in most of the states in America family can't even have them put out of their misery,! So your second statement is absolutely ridiculous right from the get go, and you keep saying it and I keep saying the same thing you are just flat out wrong!

now in regards to quadriplegia, and what I have and haven't said in that regards. right off the bat even a C1 injury can technically end their life by starving themselves and or refusing treatment ventailtor, bowel care etc however as has been seen many times when these people are in patients is it is not unheard of for them to be denied that right by being fed through a tube of which for injuries no arm movement there is no physical way to take out, like it or not there's nothing they can do about cleaning us up after we've had a bowel movement either and the catheters going to do it's job whether you wanted to or not. Even when you're not an inpatient your caregivers could call the authorities on you and you could be again denied that right. In which case you will have to go on a long arduous battle of proving that you are perfectly competent, which is just so disturbing choosing to die rather than remain completely dependent is a completely rational thing no matter what people want to think. now for most C-5 completes and up , Even if there is no outward interference but very important no assistance and the disabled individual is left to their own devices; then the only sure fired guaranteed way is again to refuse all medical care starvation, dehydration let the bowel and bladder's rot! Now as reality has shown us two things

1)it's been documented before it's happened before and it can take a very long time upwards of three months.
2) now these are obviously the tragedies! Continuing: despite The truly impressive conviction and willpower (borderline superhuman) these individuals obviously had, nothing was explicitly stated that they let their bowel and or/bladder rupture or any of the other horrible things that would obviously ensue by not managing them at all , And at least in the case of the young girl that went into the group home specifically to starve it was noted that she received very small doses of water throughout the ordeal obviously because going into it completely with nothing would be another thing entirely of this already indescribable event. but that's not to say that nobody has denied everything resorted to letting everything rot 100% and it just was never made public!

Which leads me to what I actually have said about the situation with quadriplegia and suicide, we do not have the luxury/ right to numerous methods and options, The only real sure fired way that we can do it completely independently is pretty much starvation (and obvious things like dehydration, kidney failure, bowel rupture) which in every sense of the way is wrong, it's so completely wrong. You don't understand what it is to be quadriplegics and fully dependent trapped, helpless,defenceless 24/7 but I like many others ( in reality a small minority in the spinal cord injury population) do and truth be told it keeps me up at night thinking about the people that have and will resorted to starvation and/or basically completely letting the chronic paralysis consume you on multiple different levels it's beyond painful, it's ugly as an ugly death can get inside the body and outside; site and smell, and most importantly it's LONG at least a week, at most over three months! Yeah that's real conviction, but that's also a different thing entirely (if The fact that people have resorted to such measures doesn't emphasize the need for medical intervention in regards to quadriplegia I don't know what does but gets brushed under the rug).

If someone like you a paraplegic or Clayton where to kill themselves one would shoot himself, electrocute himself, hang himself, stab himself, drug him self ( now some quads especially incomplete and or lower cervical can get around to doing these things it's more risky in the sense of it being a screwup failure but some still can get it done, especially if their house is modified with drawers they can reach and open obviously not everybody has that, but these less severe injuries can even get to doing it quickly even privately when everyone's gone even leave a note of warning so nobody sees but when it gets into the C-5 complete injuries and up that starts to become much more likely to be physically impossible ) both of us know damn well that of all the quadriplegics that resorted to that long arduous route had any other options at their disposal which would make it over with in seconds at worst minutes, Starvation wouldn't of even been considered! but they didnt so it took weeks of rotting and suffering agony, filthy dark and horrific exit that obviously more than one person most likely family/ Friends included had to bear witness to on multiple occasions for a long period of time. As I said this is a different thing entirely in the most bizarre and disturbing circumstances you hear about someone throwing themselves into a alligator or tiger pit at a zoo, or other things like actually my mother's friend just recently cut his throat with a chainsaw ( he failed because he didn't fully commit and blacked out) but suicide is a daily occurrence, but those are the kind of bazaar cases where you just wonder why that way, and it's just that little bit more troubling before you move on with life. but as bizarre as they were; you know what they have in common they are still relatively quick, you're not going to be laying around suffering for the rest of the day let alone a few months! In this awful world when people die of starvation because unfortunately it does happen still, it's certainly not by choice it would require going against and resisting every instinct we have for a long period of time, not just one quick irrational moment of tremendous mental anguish where nothing other than ending the suffering is thought about leading to a reaction and it's all over before you know it. The people that have to voluntarily not only resort to starvation but stay committed to it are only the extremely sick and disabled, and obviously it dosent just consist of starving given their conditions ( so even if we do find a once in a blue moon anomaly where a able bodied lunatic voluntarily starved himself in the name of some Zeus it's still not remotely the same thing for a number of different variables and reasons). It's disturbing, it's not right... So when someone like yourself that has so many options none of which on your mind would be starvation/ letting the organs go unmanaged with the luxurious God-given right to do it however you see fit, it really is quite ignorant and arrogant for you to go on about how suicides only barrier is psychological...


Your third point is your perspective completely understandable. However as I've said many times I couldn't feel stronger that spinal cord injury is far to vague a term and the disability that you have is not remotely the same thing as those with high quadriplegia;and I wish it wasn't under the same diagnosis/classification despite being caused by the same mechanism in all rationality the two separate conditions shouldn't even remotely be associated. I only say this because I have tremendous respect for someone that is fully dependent and ends their life to rid themselves of indignity, no real freedom takes the only other option rather than abjure and voluntarily resort to begging for help constantly every day for the rest of their life and of course rids their family, Friends, previous lovers ( again in the case of the Young girl that moved into a group home so her boyfriend could fully move on and obviously for her own sake as well) and in some ways not always but for a lot of severely disabled dependets society picks up some of the burden in some cases a lot of it! These few certainly are stronger and braver than I, as well as many others. And on the other side of the coin, I can't entirely respect what Clayton did after all he was independent each day was dependent on his own strength, ability and resilience all of the nasty stuff was done by himself in privacy. And suicide impacts other people, I've seen this firsthand, so now especially in our society and only the rarest most extreme circumstances justify it. However I greatly respect his perspective, it truly was a breath of fresh realism having said that whether he realized it or not the man did perform seppuku , And then also considering he was having to perform undignified acts ( although on his own, which in my eyes makes all the difference) and it was clearly a dishonour to himself and his values! so at the same time I cannot say I do not respect what he did at all, because with all that in mind in a very real way I do.

[chick]

Oh I hear you loud and clear, I understand your perspective all too well I just think it's ridiculous. Here's the definition because I just don't listen to the Alpha and Omega's:

the state or quality of being worthy of honor or respect.
"a man of dignity and unbending principle"

Definition reinforces what I said.

Well One thing we all know for sure there's a lot of bending of principles when it comes to "coping" with SCI, that certainly is not subjective. That is unless you were some kind of disturbing and disgusting individual in your "previous life ". Of course ones interpretation of honour/ principles is subjective, some people have higher expectations some people have lower ones, but I feel principles are pretty much universally The foundation of honour...

If you're not going to read what I said, and continue only to look at and discuss my individual circumstance rather than the "situation" as a whole; then it's as simple as this: I'm not willing to permanently drop my expectations, and completely abolish (forget bending) my principals just to keep living a life where I am physically unable to do anything independently, let alone anything I truly value or enjoy. Frankly a life I find horribly repulsive to my core and have absolutely no desire to delude and pander myself to "adapt", using ridiculous one liners that appeal to the naive and desperate; and delusional reverse psychology (especially from sources that live the The repulsive lifestyle without any attempt at eradicating it for themselves and others basically the world, most likely wholeheartedly believe in the one liners) as motivation. Especially if I can contribute to something (provided my demise) that is FAR FAR more worthwhile then collecting cathaters and diapers. Fact is the cause is more worthwhile then pretty much any living thing on this earth will ever hope to accomplish,so I would be beyond honoured to contribute as much as I can even if it is minute...

Nope, I never commented on your individual circumstances here. Thats something YOU are preoccupied with and consumed by, in addition to being consumed by what you THINK others are thinking about you.

However If you'd actually like to discuss what I talked about, please let me know!

Like I said, I'm not interested in talking about your individual circumstances. Other than you repetitively talking about your circumstances (and redundantly so) and what you think other people are thinking about you, and projecting all of your personal feelings about your individual circumstance onto others here, you haven't said anything original or thoughtful on the issue of disability and value of life, nor have you said anything intriguing worth exploring further regarding the themes brought up on those issues. Because of your preoccupation with your own circumstances you have been unable to discuss the broader issues, and essentially shutting down others from discussing them. You've insulated yourself within the comfort of your misery. That's your prerogative. I'm just not interested in commiserating to validate your ego. I wouldn't be doing you any favors by doing so, being that it's actually pretty fragile and insecure (which accounts for the repeated lashing out on others here and accusing them of being delusional).

No one is asking or telling you to lower expectations or bend your principles. NO ONE is telling you this but YOU. Once you begin to recognize this, you may be more able to focus less on yourself and be more open to hearing what others are saying, and maybe... just MAYBE... be more able to discuss the broader issues.

[chick]

Ahhhh...I see.

I recall James brining up some Clayton worship in a past thread in which I responded as I am apt to do.

We have discussed in a few times yes, but I read a thread that was created long before I was a member by someone else in which you for were either the first or one of the first people to comment and you called him pretty much weak and cowardly for what he did.

Ok. James obviously saw a different user name criticizing Clayton as weak and cowardly. I didn't realize you, Oddity, told James you were the one and the same poster in that old thread.

[Oddity]

Ok. James obviously saw a different user name criticizing Clayton as weak and cowardly. I didn't realize you, Oddity, told James you were the one and the same poster in that old thread.

I don't recall ever connecting that dot for him. I'm pretty sure I reiterated those feelings in more recent threads that James and I have participated in. Yeah, I'm still more than a little bitter. Call it a character flaw.

[chick]

I don't recall ever connecting that dot for him. I'm pretty sure I reiterated those feelings in more recent threads that James and I have participated in. Yeah, I'm still more than a little bitter. Call it a character flaw.

Ah ha! My instinct was right on. I thought it odd he'd even make a connection, as I figured you wouldn't really have reason to, even with recent threads on the same topics. So I remain a bit skeptical. Call it a good character flaw.

[CapnGimp]

SOMEWHERE on my many hard drives, I have a pdf that Clayton wrote(book) detailing his life before and after SCI, and why he was going to 'off' himself. Bob Clark sent it to me right after Clayton killed himself. As most of the older folks here know, Bb and I were friends and spoke together much, played games online together. His brother killed himself, my sister killed herself, both able bodied people. Bob was more sympathetic to Clayton's condition than I. I am of the mind that suicide is a non-option, or at it's "best", something best put off for a LONG time. I will have to find it. If I remember correctly, Clayton only sent it to Bob/ or maybe a select few.
I think JamesMcM is caught in the vicious circle of self pity that is impossible to break away from because he spends so much time concentrating on self and trying to rationalize his feelings to others. If a tenth of that enery were focused on the more positive items which he says he is working towards, it would break the cycle. There were a few high level quads here years ago that I wish were around to voice their opinions. I doubt it would penetrate his barrier at this time though. As one who 'gave up on myself' when I came out of the coma early on and found myself overwhelmed with joy that I was STILL alive, he's not going to pay much attention to what I say. Sure, as one who could only roll my head from side to side, speak in a quiet voice and had to be spoonfed for almost a month with a feeding tube at the same time, I was caving in to the realization that I couldn't live a normal life BUT never desired to off myself. What a wimp. I just hang in there and deluded myself that it was all good. Gradually, I got the full use of my arms and hands back, I thank God for that also, but I still had to have a few different folks digging crap out of me with there big old fingers for a few months. By the time the first couple months were up, I had resolved that since I can't feel it, it doesn't matter. I look back on the time that I told the nurses I didn't NEED to learn how to do a bowel program, I was fine with letting it come out on it's own and someone rolling me over and cleaning me up, because I couldn't fathom the thought that at some point in time, when I if I ever could use my arms and hands, it was gonna be ME that was digging the crap out! At that point I was fine talking about the Rockets or Astros to the guy cleaning my pipes or gardening and how to teach your kids to ride a bike to the women who had the unfortunate duty, just glad I wasn't able yet. Seems strange now, looking back on it. Similar to boot camp, when I learned I was going to have to be part of a team and excel as a group, instead of concentrating on myself being 'above and beyond' the 'others'. Hmmph...strange indeed.
WelP, let me find that book Clayton wrote. If I can locate it, I'll upload it to James. He will have a good read of someone who thinks like he does, albeit a much lower level of injury. May take a few days, today is the Sabbath, I got up early to study a bit in the Bible before church later and mistakenly hit my browser icon, answered a pm and wound up perusing a bit.
James, if you will, hit up the thread where I posted a link to some vids in the religion and spirituality forum. Scan the synopsis of a few of them, if any catch your eye, they are free. I hope you find your way out of the funk you are in, that you call your reality, I really do. When I got the news that my sister, at 46, had put a gun to her heart and killed herself, it hurt me more than my sci. It destroyed my mom and my brother and sister living, changed them forever. Not to mention her two daughters. There is a reason some of us term it a selfish choice. It's similar to the breakup of a real marriage, in that it spills over into OTHERS lives. You just took the easy way out.

[JamesMcM]

Definition reinforces what I said.

Nope, I never commented on your individual circumstances here. Thats something YOU are preoccupied with and consumed by, in addition to being consumed by what you THINK others are thinking about you.

Like I said, I'm not interested in talking about your individual circumstances. Other than you repetitively talking about your circumstances (and redundantly so) and what you think other people are thinking about you, and projecting all of your personal feelings about your individual circumstance onto others here, you haven't said anything original or thoughtful on the issue of disability and value of life, nor have you said anything intriguing worth exploring further regarding the themes brought up on those issues. Because of your preoccupation with your own circumstances you have been unable to discuss the broader issues, and essentially shutting down others from discussing them. You've insulated yourself within the comfort of your misery. That's your prerogative. I'm just not interested in commiserating to validate your ego. I wouldn't be doing you any favors by doing so, being that it's actually pretty fragile and insecure (which accounts for the repeated lashing out on others here and accusing them of being delusional).

No one is asking or telling you to lower expectations or bend your principles. NO ONE is telling you this but YOU. Once you begin to recognize this, you may be more able to focus less on yourself and be more open to hearing what others are saying, and maybe... just MAYBE... be more able to discuss the broader issuues.

No not exactly, what you're "Interpretation" is clinging to is that honour and dignity is subjective which technically is true but in this situation I would consider it more of a cop out. I don't know your level of injury, so I don't know if you are can fully imagine a circumstance like this; but would you consider a state where you remain basically motionless and another person or persons proceed to roll you over, then have your bowels and bladder managed, get rolled back over, have your legs spread wide open so they can wipe your genitals and if needed apply baby powder, then they get you dressed, rolled over again to have a harness slid under you which is used to Connect to a lift which awkwardly carries you and your lifeless body out of your bed places you went to your chair. Everyone then situate you in your chair, reaches down your pants to pull your testicles out from under your ass , Unplug your chair and hand you what you need. During that one to three hours would you consider that a state where the of honour and respect. No, because it's University undignified, substantially so for a grown man it's humiliating. And this is but one aspect just the morning aspect but it will take place every day. As I said about grown man and the fact the hair on their next stands up even hearing the word prostate check, as an able-bodied person this isn't even considerable, if the idea is hypothetically proposed numerous polls show 90% say they'd rather be dead,because it's disgusting because it's undignified. It's not to say that the individual cannot go on to do respectable things from their perspective, it's just that the time for indignity will always occur . It's kind of situation is very severe, the process itself is not subjectively undignified to believe such a process is not undignified is undeniable delusionit doesn't matter about what you do after the process I'm talking about the process itself simple as that . Now of course the severity of the impact that has on you is subjective, it's based on the individual for some it's just a do what you got to do, other people are so used to it they don't even think about it, and for others each time destroys a little more of them. To except and adapt to the reality this is a daily occurrence and not be deeply bothered by it for anyone that wasn't born like this principles will have to bend. in a lot of teachings of honour to Bend one principles (especially for something as trifle as continuing to breathe specially if children are not in the picture, let alone a life of dependency) One dissolves himself of honor. Of course in today's society that sounds "idiotic" or something along that lines laughable as it is.


There is no 'dignity' in a condition. There's only dignity in HOW one deals with the condition. See this quote you made is ridiculous, it is to imply that dignity or in this case indignity does not exist or at least is not meaningful if you do not allow it to be. And I've repeated myself too much on what not allowing it to be consists of. As you said yourself " coping with that that is disgusting, does not make it not disgusting. I just wish all of these recycled, slightly altered one-liners would stop sugarcoating it stop pretending to be more than they are and just get to it "keep breathing, no matter the circumstances, no matter what you have to resort to , or what you have to get other people to resort to for you,keep breathing because we have no idea what is next"

Ugnhh I think, and I may be wrong but I think you're misinterpreting what I mean by my individual circumstance. I just mean anything to do with me not just the injury or how I live with it or what I think of it literally anything to do with me. So I wrote a large post touching on many issues, some of which were my perspectives but mostly my perspectives of coping with spinal cord injury as a whole it's ugliness, it's redundancy it's benefit and it's potential origin, it's destructive outcome to the cause, the ridiculous reality we do nothing to fight this injury instead we just constantly try to prove we still have meaning blah blah. Which is the case with this movie and the attention it.etc. a bunch of stuff that is way bigger than me. And you inquired about what I said about Clayton and oddity, so that's what I mean, then I had to address that and then address what came of that response etc. also keep in mind I am talking with oddity as well who again is mostly inquiring about my individual perspectives and certain aspects that he considers me minimal lysing other peoples "tremendous effort" and yes I am tying the two of you together when I keep saying the conversation keeps being dragged into the direction where I have to talk about individual circumstances, rather then the big picture I'm trying to get to. and it's very likely I'm not conveying it properly, I'm also writing a lot because I'm so sick of us being a bunch of bums lying to ourselves saying how were fighting this disability by living with it, which would be one thing if it only affected us but it still continues to spread and ruin peoples lives and we're just all busy coping and telling us how strong we are, rather than going out the issue. And I was absolutely repulsed by the responses this movie got, it was disgusting the disabled people thought they looked strong by the response they gave when actually they looked incredibly weak of course able-bodied people aren't going to say that or even think that one because One they are ignorant to the full reality two because they coddle the disabled.

Never once did I say anyone was telling me to bend my principles, although on numerous different occasions has the bullshit reverse psychology been attempted on me oh I thought you were strong that kind of garbage, but I digress. When I sort of lashed out I was merely just hoping that if I put affirmative words about my full perspective and stance on coping and it's repulsiviness given dependency. That you'd either be able to say oh he's a lost cause, and MoveOn And/or conclude this guy is weak, ha ha not going to change and we can move on to talking about the disabled community as a whole, and complete BS indoctrination of the ideology you clearly believe in,I wonder why.? Or even better Address the fact that SCI research is in the sorry state it is because of this crap!

you're misunderstanding that I want to sit here and talk about myself, and I want to slam coping so I can make myself feel bigger because I don't cope like some small man complex. I just wanted to have a conversation that I started the thread about, but clearly where do you can realize it or not you kind a have your backs up, and seem you're looking through my threads for two things 1) something that bothers you, offends you or someone you know or perspective you have etc. 2) a supposed hole in what I'm writing at least the part that you look at , something that you can suddenly mock,question exhibit a the whole Clayton thing.
Maybe I'll just confess and that will end it, even through the computer I shutter at your shear will and strength, I could never hope to read such a godlike level of bravery rivalling that of Achilles himself, to welcome paralysis and never look back deny in dignity because in your eyes it's not even their sheer willpower alone vanished its existence. This goes to everyone Who is interpreting anything I say defensively, fear not I am but a peasant that will never accept for I am just too weak and cowardly what was me.

Finally I got that off my chest... Annnyways I don't know if you pick this up with what I wrote eat earlier, because you don't read everything can't blame you there but obviously that's going to lead into miscommunication which has obviously taken place. you've often said, as well as others that you can either cope accept it or die, there is a third one of course the all to comfortably seated will claim it to be illogical and ridiculous, but you could put all the cards on the table for recovery to at least gain independence or at least an acceptable function level. And no I don't mean hard work in physiotherapy and your recover, of course that's the initial part of it and most injuries will benefit that, of course us completes will not but you need to keep that work ethic on the back burner advocacy, research more research, preventing secondary complications and paralysis and most injuries will benefit that, of course us completes will not but you need to keep that work ethic on the back burner advocacy, research more research, preventing secondary complications and paralysis rot rot to keep the body , donate, enrol in clinical trials, incorporate your own protocol into the clinical trial. I could write a whole thread on this, fact is even if it doesn't help you in someway small or big it will help because therefore it'll help a ridiculous amount of people in the future, as I said that would make all of this "heroic coping" nothing but a thing of an obsolete past.