Me Before You

[JamesMcM]

Clinging to impossible to meet expectations is nothing to be proud about. It is absurd. As life changes, so must expectations. Neglecting this truth is at the root of much suffering. If life is intolerable, end it. If it is tolerable, live it. Drifting inbetween is a poor choice IMO.

Dropping your expectations for yourself at the drop of a hat just to accommodate A situation no matter how void of freedom, burdensome and undignified, is definitely nothing to be proud of! That's absurd. What's hysterical is you think you speak truth, you think of the impossible just because nobody has done it, so you instantly accept defeat and try to classify it as something it's not ! Justify it as simply adapting to change. Instead of trying to be someone to make the impossible possible, but even more disgusting you try and take that mediocre stance, and convey it as something rational maybe even inspiring! It's sad only in the spinal cord injury community would something like that fly! Talk about dropping expectations!


Then again you're not a burden on anyone, and you can handle all the nasty business yourself, and you are relatively free to act on your own... Which is evident by your clear ignorance on the simplicity of suicide as if anyone can just do it,easy to say with so many options and resources easily obtainable by your logical imagination.


Nobody talked of being proud of it, it is an ugly thing with very obscure mentalities behind it, maybe we just hold our principles true... And still hold the same integrity, we did before we simply bumped our spinal cord. I don't know I only speak for myself I can't speak for others

[JamesMcM]

I am not proud about how I feel, but I am honest.
Is it wrong to see things as they are?
I consider myself to be a realist, and with being that you must be very practical as well.

I am not neglecting the truth, I'm seeing it for what it is.

I wish I was delusional enough to endure life as a quad, believe me I do.
Perhaps believe in a God who was 'testing' me.

But I am not narcissistic enough to be religious, and I am not ignorant enough to be delusional.


So I remain trapped. You're right though, it is a poor 'choice'

Well said!

[JamesMcM]

All right, my bad I participated in this and now this valuable conversation that may have died down since that movie was released quite sometime ago but nonetheless still valuable conversation has now gone to Lala land. Capngimp perhaps we will continue this conversation in the private messages, however I've asked if these could be deleted and have this thread move back to the life section

[SCI-Nurse]

Divided into two separate threads.

(KLD)

[Oddity]

Dropping your expectations for yourself at the drop of a hat just to accommodate A situation no matter how void of freedom, burdensome and undignified, is definitely nothing to be proud of! That's absurd. What's hysterical is you think you speak truth, you think of the impossible just because nobody has done it, so you instantly accept defeat and try to classify it as something it's not ! Justify it as simply adapting to change. Instead of trying to be someone to make the impossible possible, but even more disgusting you try and take that mediocre stance, and convey it as something rational maybe even inspiring! It's sad only in the spinal cord injury community would something like that fly! Talk about dropping expectations!

It's called adaptation, and it is one aspect of being human that separates us from 'lower life forms'. You can certainly choose not to adapt, to be miserable and bitch and moan and groan about what you can't change. That is part of being human too, having free will, even when using it to be negative, and to hurt yourself. Some of us like to use what we have left to attain some peace, which is hardly something you can (rationally) find fault with.

Then again you're not a burden on anyone, and you can handle all the nasty business yourself, and you are relatively free to act on your own... Which is evident by your clear ignorance on the simplicity of suicide as if anyone can just do it,easy to say with so many options and resources easily obtainable by your logical imagination.

Being a quad doesn't physically limit you from ending your life. That's just another excuse based on lacking the strength of will to go through with it. You can literally do NOTHING and be dead in less than a week. The limitation isn't what you are physically capable of, it is psychological.

Nobody talked of being proud of it, it is an ugly thing with very obscure mentalities behind it, maybe we just hold our principles true... And still hold the same integrity, we did before we simply bumped our spinal cord. I don't know I only speak for myself I can't speak for others

Having a spinal cord sucks, to be sure. But being miserable AND having a spinal cord sucks more. They don't HAVE to go hand in hand. Our state of mind is not necessarily bound to the state of our body. Some states of body make it hard, some harder than others, but to believe there is no way to authentically adapt, to say it is a flaw of character to adapt, is a foolish and short sighted generalization that minimizes SO many people and the effort they put into not being miserable sacks of sorrow.

Minimize yourself all you want. That's your prerogative.

[gjnl]

Removed my "ouch" comment after the scathing post aimed at "Oddity" was removed by moderator.

All the best,
GJ

[Oddity]

INAPPROPRIATE POST AND QUOTE OF SAME WHICH VIOLATES CCC RULES REMOVED. (KLD)

If you any insight, beyond lashing out like a child at someone you don't agree with, you'd probably be dealing better with being crippled. Enjoy making yourself miserable.

[lynnifer]

I can't imagine. I really can't. I'd probably be suicidal too ... but keeping busy does help. Now that I've been off work for 3yrs, I've been so restless ... but sick with complications at the same time not even allowing me the chance to volunteer finally.

Being miserable all the time really sucks too though. Learned that after 32yrs of experience.

I hope Edgerton is onto something and quads can move fingers again soon ... my best friend who is quadriplegic actually doesn't want it ... she thinks it would be uber painful after 28yrs. Hope she's proven wrong.

[chick]

You're missing the point.
Those quads you speak of that lead "happy loving lives" have succumb to their injury.
They've settled for an inferior life.
One that's hardly respectable, and one that's truly pitiful.
There's no denying that. The things a complete quad has to endure are pathetic.
If you're content living a life that is as dependent as an infant, well then by all means...

For some people that's just not acceptable though. Can you fault them for that?

So what is the point exactly?

- You see 'Quality' and 'Happiness' fixed states.

- If feeling one has a happy and loving life is succumbing to injury, thus settling for an inferior, pitiful life that's hardly respectable, then explain what not succumbing to injury entails? Death?

I am not proud about how I feel, but I am honest.
Is it wrong to see things as they are?
I consider myself to be a realist, and with being that you must be very practical as well.

I am not neglecting the truth, I'm seeing it for what it is.

I wish I was delusional enough to endure life as a quad, believe me I do.
Perhaps believe in a God who was 'testing' me.

But I am not narcissistic enough to be religious, and I am not ignorant enough to be delusional.


So I remain trapped. You're right though, it is a poor 'choice'

You are honest and a realist who sees things 'as they are' - the 'TRUTH'.

And as you state, enduring life as a quad is to be delusional and to be delusional is to be ignorant.

So let's be real and see the obvious for what it is and not neglect the truth, as you've declared here.
You are alive and living as a quad (a given, based on your postings).
Therefore:
- You are enduring life as a quad, no if's and's or but's.
- You are delusional
- You are ignorant enough

[eskay]

So what is the point exactly?

- You see 'Quality' and 'Happiness' fixed states.

- If feeling one has a happy and loving life is succumbing to injury, thus settling for an inferior, pitiful life that's hardly respectable, then explain what not succumbing to injury entails? Death?

In many cases. yes.
I respect those who can acknowledge that their life has deteriorated beyond a point that is respectable to them. I don't think it's right to live a life dependent on others just to exist.

Perhaps you enjoy someone wiping your ass?

Or maybe you delude your mind just enough to where it doesn't bother you.
Either way, congrats.


It's difficult for me to have much self respect when having to endure the things that quads have to.
I can't ignore my realities. And I can't respect indignities.

You are honest and a realist who sees things 'as they are' - the 'TRUTH'.

And as you state, enduring life as a quad is to be delusional and to be delusional is to be ignorant.

So let's be real and see the obvious for what it is and not neglect the truth, as you've declared here.
You are alive and living as a quad (a given, based on your postings).
Therefore:
- You are enduring life as a quad, no if's and's or but's.
- You are delusional
- You are ignorant enough

Sure, I see things as they are, as they relate to me and the things I value and respect.
Quadriplegia? Nah.

As I said, I wish I could embrace it.
It's not something I respect.


Are you a complete quad? Just curious

[christopher]

She's complete.

I'm a pretty happy quad. Do I like having my ass wiped? No. But I don't ask much else to the guy I pay to do it.

Finding happiness as a quad is about accepting a lot of shit that you would have found extremely humiliating in your previous life.

[Scaper1]

She's complete.

I'm a pretty happy quad. Do I like having my ass wiped? No. But I don't ask much else to the guy I pay to do it.

Finding happiness as a quad is about accepting a lot of shit that you would have found extremely humiliating in your previous life.

Pretty much. What other choice is there? Live dependent or die.

In a situation like this, the ability to tune things out - if that's how you want to define "delusion" - isn't a weakness, it's a freaking superpower.

[JamesMcM]

It's called adaptation, and it is one aspect of being human that separates us from 'lower life forms'. You can certainly choose not to adapt, to be miserable and bitch and moan and groan about what you can't change. That is part of being human too, having free will, even when using it to be negative, and to hurt yourself. Some of us like to use what we have left to attain some peace, which is hardly something you can (rationally) find fault with.




Being a quad doesn't physically limit you from ending your life. That's just another excuse based on lacking the strength of will to go through with it. You can literally do NOTHING and be dead in less than a week. The limitation isn't what you are physically capable of, it is psychological.




Having a spinal cord sucks, to be sure. But being miserable AND having a spinal cord sucks more. They don't HAVE to go hand in hand. Our state of mind is not necessarily bound to the state of our body. Some states of body make it hard, some harder than others, but to believe there is no way to authentically adapt, to say it is a flaw of character to adapt, is a foolish and short sighted generalization that minimizes SO many people and the effort they put into not being miserable sacks of sorrow.

Minimize yourself all you want. That's your prerogative.

Of course I realize that being a quad does not physically PREVENT you from ending your life, that is idiotic! I have read many of the shocking stories of quadriplegics resorting to starvation, why do you think it is they had to resort to three months of starvation? Because by the definition of the word "limit" being a quadriplegic does very much physically limit you from ending your life! Pulling a trigger in a split second is much easier than starving yourself,and leaving your bowels and bladder to rot for months! You in terms of spinal cord injury you have it is about as pampering as you can get don't come at me about such and such situation in your life outside of the injury I do not give no such fucks.. Nobody needs to be getting defensive here I certainly am not what you're saying is simply absurd! But my point is you know nothing of the full implications of high cervical complete quadriplegia; for God sakes even after four years every once in a while I discover a new implication and/or limitation that I just never thought about! If you decide to end your life you have about I don't know, off The top of my head at least four traditional ways to do it quickly and efficiently! And many different ways and factors to execute you could travel far away so your family doesn't have to see any of it, from what I remember that kind of control over one's life it's quite liberating, not that I ever remotely noticed it or appreciated it when I had it! A high cervical injury, especially a complete has no such luxury. So you're exactly right they can choose to abandon all treatment and rot which can take up words of three months even if you do not eat a single morsel! But going that route is a different thing entirely, and it's the physical limitations of being a higher injury that lead to such a tradic decision.

You mistaking me having a few more plans in place, and still trying to "fight" dependency as lacking the will to end it. I Will admit living as a dependent has made me soft, the notion that this kind of life is sparred with strength and resilience is ludicrous the longer you live like this the more you adjust there's no elbow grease needed (although the more effort you put in the quicker and more "fun" you could have, provided your interpretation of fun is within the realm of reality after injury) , The mind will do what it needs to survive, not being physically able to end your life in a split second when you're having your worst fit at its climax also plays a role. In the initial years most of us high quad would be running for a shotgun, but all we can physically do instead is lay in bed and stare at the ceiling; frighteningly after enough time that becomes comforting. then again if we could get to the shotgun this conversation would be a irrelevant wouldn't it.

Again you're fooling yourself fact of the matter is someone that was a professional hockey player and ends up as a C-4 is going to have a much harder time than someone who was a computer analyst and ends up C-4. The professional athletes main joy in life is no longer possible not even remotely at best all he can do is watch able-bodied people do what he loved! Where is the computer analyst, although not as efficiently will still be able to access a computer and continue on where he left off, that's a fact that would play a major difference you're an absolute idiot if you can't realize that! The other factor is individuality yes our desires, hobbies, interests play a factor to our individuality but so does our principles! I will direct this at myself, but the fact is majority of people do not think like me they cannot analyze reality and embrace it like I can, I just had a conversation with my physiotherapist today she was nothing but silent, she admitted that everything I said was true but she just doesn't want to think about it despite the fact that it will likely effect out future in short time. When you're very analytical, and extreme realist to the point you can dribble into cynicism I could be a problem when having to do such disgusting procedures and being so pathetically weak and helpless, you're not going to look past those things; you're going to analyze them all to deeply. Principles comes in all different shapes and sizes like anything, i have been very ill this last year so I've been in and out of the hospital nothing dire unfortunately but yes. There are patients there that are completely able-bodied, they can walk move their hands, controlled her bladder and bowels etc. but obviously they are sick and in pain I understand that but I was absolutely blown away with how embracing they were of being dependent and a burden despite having other options. I believe wholeheartedly and of course this is subjective and unfortunately they won't do any proper psychological evaluation on the coping with quadriplegia and it's long-term effects. I feel very strongly they should, but after seeing so many people SCI or not I now realize that many people are more "predisposed" to accepting dependency and all its splendour. The reason I think they should evaluate people coping with quadriplegia is I am thinking they would find similarities to people with Stockholm syndrome and/or people that become institutionalized in fact I think it would be even more extreme,,considering it's a much more consistent situation, you never get a change of settings in terms of implications after SCI ( unless of course you're very incomplete and a new injury, not my main focus point )! it also has far less help in most cases a prisoner knows he will be released, a kidnap victim knows there is a chance The police will rescue them! Of course just like recovery after SCI with enough time that hope dwindles away. Like I said the mind will adjust, I have become softer living like this I have become more accepting of the most grotesque undignified procedures out there, I have been become very accommodating of all these diseases and secondary complications that riddle my body; this is a weakness this is not A new found form of resilience just because I'm severely disabled. And if spinal cord injury was treatable The situation would be addressed completely differently I would never even remotely be condoned for living like this if there was another option. but since it is untreatable modern medicine be it psychologist, doctors etc Will begin to instil the ideology that living like this takes strength, it is resilient of us and we will have to go back and every now and then be reassured by them and/or other disabled Who have been told the same thing! and that is how we "MoveOn" until it is treatable of course. anything that needs to be recycled and/or reassured doesn't have much value to be called truth to me! let alone that if sci had even a slight solution it would be considered an abomination not a badge of honour wahhhh

Another logistic about spinal cord injury and coping while we're talking about it. SCI is far too vauge term a T 12 injury is not the same thing as a C1, and should not even remotely be associated! Even if one adjust to a C1 injury and is according to them "happy" I believe there would be visible alterations to their brain from living such a dormant lifestyle; and before anyone defensively tries to justify how active they are no matter how "active" you are as a high quadriplegic you are still a dormant compared to what the human body is meant to live like ( unless you were the type to be a lazy slob laying on the couch eating Chito's, in which case sci should be no problem body didn't mean much to you anyways in fact it could be used as a method to be congratulated for living a lazy lifestyle, nonetheless such a lifestyle is unnatural) ! Another very realistic factor even a part from obvious motor and sensory function still No two injuries are the same, one C-5 injury may have a bladder that just holds urine as long as it needs to no rush no urgency and a simple catheterization restarts the process; whereas another may have an extremely over active bladder which will lead them to face chronic infections, bladder stones, kidney damage which can lead to a lot of other complications and even deformities long-term,accidents will be more common, so even at the same level one person has a much easier ride then another! Then there's also things like spasticity some people have it bad enough to break bones others have it none at all, some people respond to the drugs and/or baclofen pump other people don't that would be an even bigger impact then bladder issues; because that shit will remind you every few minutes how bad the situation is through pain it'll really let you have it every time you get in your chair every time you get in bed, won't let you sleep, throw you out of your chair etc. so to an injury that just gets in bed and their body remains still May be a few tiny spasms at first even still it's like they aren't even the same disability. All of this is a moot point if you are going to focus on me so don't bother saying "I already said some disabilities are harder than others" it's still a valid point, even if minor still emphasizes your massive generalization when addressing the disability and all the individuals victim to it as a whole! But to get it out-of-the-way in my individual circumstance the only thing that matters to me is whether or not you can shit on your own, than and only then get through a day independently. When it gets down to it no matter how bad it gets the person who can just accept dependency and has no problem asking for help but more importantly has something they truly value to fall back on completely on their own like the computer analyst example Will have a light in the darkness so to speak. It Very much is a matter not of character but of individuality everything is...

There are other factors, and here's the reality you can pretend and be politically correct and deny that these are not factors but here it is One of the most prominent ( after everything I've stated above of course) is sex appeal, you take someone that is considered very attractive you then take someone that is considered unattractive. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, is a fortune cookie perspective it holds merit in select circumstances simply by chance but it's arguing against biological factors Brad Pitt is what he is, the only person that's going to call him ugly is someone that's probably not a looker them self and is quite bitter. Now to the context of the Conversation man or woman it does not matter, being physically attractive affects everything how people interact with you, peoples first impressions of you, it's easy for such people to make friends and to make sexual partners, it also open door ( some of the most famous actors were picked for their looks early on, and that doesn't only apply to Hollywood although it is more obvious than other fields) the implications are almost never ending. When you become severely disabled, you do look deformed there's no way around that in majority of settings and peoples perspectives your sex appeal is nonexistent. A good-looking person enter the room right away they will be numerous people taking second glances, there will be people talking about them if only briefly but it will happen, if alcohol is in the mix it is likely introductions will take place good first impression Will take place etc. To the rest of us ( I consider myself included ) that are just average looking that does not take place certainly not as extreme nor as frequently. So when an injury takes place and an above average attractive person they took a hit that we never did because it was never A very common daily occurrence or even there at all in the first place; we won't suddenly become excessively and drastically unnoticeable or have a complete 180 social perspective. Yes after a disability especially quadriplegia everyone's social dynamic will change what I am saying is some people naturally have a completely different social dynamic because of sex appeal that few get to experience,so it will be A far more drastic change. I remember posting a study about this on apparalyzed many years ago whether I want to believe it or not, realistically and logically it's pretty fucking obviously true. The other factor that I remember was money and power extreme wealth and power will have people looking up to you, even intimidated by you again and completely different social dynamic, after quadriplegia even if they say they look up to you they're always looking down on you; and if they're intimidated nine times out of 10 because they don't know what to say and they don't understand,which I described as more of a uncomfortable nature rather than intimidation.

You are what I call a hopscotch kind of dude, as you can tell my perspective, principles ideology viewpoint whatever you want to call it has never budged since the day of my accident, you used to spout similar stuff at me when I first joined only difference is now I have more knowledge on living with sci. Maybe outside of this online community your perspective on the subject has or hasn't, that's not my point what I do know for a fact is you were the first to call Clayton weak and cowardly for what he did to himself, yet so many times when you talk to me you often dive into my lack of strength and will to commit to suicide. You jump from one stance to the other to suit your argument when it is in defence of everything you believe about coping, this is a common very common approach to take when living with chronic spinal cord injury and being confronted about coping always contradicting always just believing what one has to believe in; to protect the foundation of their coping mechanisms depending on what is being addressed it's always as an attempt to make coping come off as the superior response to sci. Which for some it is, but for others it's not and it's not a matter of giving up, quitting, not being strong enough etc. it's not just you I've seen it in probably 100 other people on and off the Internet, and despite my mind trying to forcibly adapt and me becoming more accommodating and accepting of the injury and it's associated ilk, I always remember the deluded contradicting mentalities I've seen again and again and I just use that as motivation to never allow myself to enter such state for better or worse does not matter to me I want no part in it; often it has led me to my perspective of disdain towards other disabled! I would never think less of anyone for simply living with a disability, I certainly wouldn't think more of them either, but if they want to take up arms against me and have an argument and the fragile nature, borderline delusional written in contradictions becomes blatantly obvious and trying to make that come off as the superior, resilient, strong thing to do! that's where I start to have a problem...


p.s you have this repetitive habit of describing some people's posts on here, mostly mine as bitching and whining etc. and it's becoming a lacklustre form of irony. It used to be hilarious but now it's just so ridiculous. This is a spinal cord injury form, for discussion on spinal cord injury shit if one person despises the disability as a whole they're going to tend to talk about that rather than talking about their fantastically fantastical ceiling lift, or outstanding commode, or they're truly wonderful catheters and all the exponentially exciting fast paced places with all the wheelchair ramps and handicap parking spots you can dream of. Just an FYI You won't ever catch me saying one even slightly good thing about such a deplorable blight on the species, other people feel the same way that does not mean that we sit around crying, bitching writing crappy poetry debating whether or not to slit our wrist lmfao, goodness gracious.

[JamesMcM]

She's complete.

I'm a pretty happy quad. Do I like having my ass wiped? No. But I don't ask much else to the guy I pay to do it.

Finding happiness as a quad is about accepting a lot of shit that you would have found extremely humiliating in your previous life.

well said! But for myself humiliation is not even remotely in the Realm to correctly describe how I feel there are no words. And it's not about my previous and or future life, it's just what I expect of myself in life as a whole.

[JamesMcM]

Pretty much. What other choice is there? Live dependent or die.

In a situation like this, the ability to tune things out - if that's how you want to define "delusion" - isn't a weakness, it's a freaking superpower.

Again that would be a matter of individual perspective! But sci or not, if you lived by a certain code or had certain principles and especially made judgements based on these; lived your life with these always on your mind when analyzing things, and then had some kind of accident and all of a sudden went against your principles and/or minimal expectations of of yourself just to keep breathing; I would always described that as great weakness.

An undignified procedure is undignified,however much dignity matters to you is up to the individual; but if that suddenly changes,and you re-alter everything, and get defensive because of it, or hide from it/run from it because deep down you know the reality all just to get by I'd say that's a problem,that would be delusion in my book.

Delusion gets very troublesome when a quadriplegic changes his catheter and says to the World especially to ignorant people to analyze "see through hard work and positivity nothing is impossible" that kind of shit is delusion at its finest; spreading that shit in regards to SCI is spitting on the people that are going to be afflicted by this disability after you, not to mention spitting on yourself! Claiming you're fighting the disability by accommodating it on every corner, and or simply living with it is delusional. Fighting the disability would require aiming at defeating it,ridding the world of such filth that's the only way it can be defeated. It makes my skin crawl when I see people accommodating and accommodating constantly changing anything and everything around them, trying to change societies build and outlook on it literally condoning The disabilities continual existence in every way possible then they take to the Internet, or tell me in person " see I beat SCI". As it continues to ruin at least five people's lives every day, and then we the afflicted go in and try and generalize them not knowing one goddamn thing about them and assume hey despite 90% of his body being paralyzed there is still something out there for them, he would certainly rather do bowel care then die a natural death etc . Then just like The doctors repeatedly try to convince them it's OK living with SCI, it's OK being dependent, life can be just as great look at me I beat it ( View of a person being kept off the ground by a chair but with big smile and at least three different meds in them ) All in all Irony can be quite funny and sometimes it can be quite disturbing!