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The right to die--ethical dilemmas in persons with spinal cord injury. SCI Nurse?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by lynnifer View Post
    I am reminded of Christine who used to post here. A few years back, she choose to stop eating/drinking as a conscious choice. It must have been so hard. She had sisters, a mother (can't remember but I believe a male friend whom she let go as well but they remained friends) who had to respect her decision as well. She was a high quad as well but an amazing artist! I believe she was a former teacher as well. She just could not handle the dependence on others .. I can't imagine as I've been lucky as a paraplegic.

    I remember her very rational discussions on the matter. Treatments for paralysis need to be here yesterday, or we will lose more.

    Kinda wish caregivers or family members would post their experiences here ... was it the right thing to do? Regrets?
    I read Christine's blogs and checked out her art. I keep thinking I should get her book but just haven't yet. She had a way with words. Such a beautiful young lady that just couldn't recover from what the injury took. I'm sure many here can relate.
    Jason

    C5/6 Complete - water skiing accident 1994.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by lynnifer View Post
      I am reminded of Christine who used to post here. A few years back, she choose to stop eating/drinking as a conscious choice. It must have been so hard. She had sisters, a mother (can't remember but I believe a male friend whom she let go as well but they remained friends) who had to respect her decision as well. She was a high quad as well but an amazing artist! I believe she was a former teacher as well. She just could not handle the dependence on others .. I can't imagine as I've been lucky as a paraplegic.

      I remember her very rational discussions on the matter. Treatments for paralysis need to be here yesterday, or we will lose more.

      Kinda wish caregivers or family members would post their experiences here ... was it the right thing to do? Regrets?

      Christine's story is incredibly moving and powerful, IMO. Among other things, mostly positive, it is a poignant reminder that suicide can be accomplished by literally doing nothing for 3-5 days. Anyone can do nothing, if they possess a strength of will and commitment to dying similar to Christine.

      The only parents/family I've ever heard from, following an SCI suicide, was Clayton's/Ozymandias. Their pain at his loss was deep, palpable, and inconsolable. Hopefully time has brought them to a point of peace with his decision. It has been a long while since I have had any contact with them. There are some of us among his former riding buddies, while accepting his absolute right to act, are still disappointed he quit on himself and his loved ones.
      "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

      "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

      "Even what those with the greatest reputation for knowing it all claim to understand and defend are but opinions..." -Heraclitus, Fragments

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      • #33
        I assume for many, fear of death has its validity. With me, it's a choice of choosing something over nothing, which can be agonizing, because on one hand, you don't like living the way you have to, but on the other hand, it's the only existence you'll know.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Oddity View Post
          Christine's story is incredibly moving and powerful, IMO. Among other things, mostly positive, it is a poignant reminder that suicide can be accomplished by literally doing nothing for 3-5 days. Anyone can do nothing, if they possess a strength of will and commitment to dying similar to Christine.

          The only parents/family I've ever heard from, following an SCI suicide, was Clayton's/Ozymandias. Their pain at his loss was deep, palpable, and inconsolable. Hopefully time has brought them to a point of peace with his decision. It has been a long while since I have had any contact with them. There are some of us among his former riding buddies, while accepting his absolute right to act, are still disappointed he quit on himself and his loved ones.
          Suicide would devastate any family it is not a cowardly act but by all means it is a selfish one, but in certain circumstances It can be selfish to expect someone to live in a way they find unbearable or unacceptable, that's why severe disability, terminal illness there can be some clarity or at least understanding involved . to my understanding she drank a little water, very little but she did and it ended up taking months, not 3-5 days. Either way it's not right, On another note she was lucky enough to be allowed to continue that path without forceful intervention ! She also moved in to a group home, because of course she was too good of a person to subject her family to seeing that every day, airgo careful planning. had she had another option or a little more function she wouldn't have to take that route. Fact is we wouldn't even do that to a dog, that is one hell of a way to go and let's be honest very very ugly and undignified.you would lose your mind, become incoherent soil yourself but lose the physical strength to be moved to be cleaned,therefore stuck in it as you rot a way I can guarantee that neglect was definitely a factor, these kind of places aren't renowned for being on top of things as it is! But You can be sure nurses arnt going to be on top of such an unpleasant Situation , what does it matter anyways to them, she's dying anyways . Of course she had no hope she very much wanted to die, and not burden anyone or remaine dependent her story is tragic, Innoway inspiring but itvery much makes me ashamed to live the way that I do continuing to be a burden and not showing conviction, still it's really fucked up that that was her only alternative like beyond words. I respect her and Clayton . His injury was low so I have a different opinion but in regards to Christine A big part of me feels she made the right decision for the circumstance that is a life of dependency . I think it's extremely evident that Clayton didn't give up on himself he stood strong by what he believed and his principles... It might be hard for someone that knew him, but he made that perfectly clear..
          Last edited by JamesMcM; 01-04-2016, 07:07 PM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by JamesMcM View Post
            Suicide would devastate any family..
            True, but then I say fuck the family; they're not the ones with the debilitating condition.

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            • #36
              Personally I come to that conclusion too, but I think I can speak for many others as well that rationale doesn't change the fact that my fear of hurting them has played a role in my hesitation, as well as a (not the) reason to why I'm trying to take on the path of repair instead.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by JamesMcM View Post
                [...] I think it's extremely evident that Clayton didn't give up on himself he stood strong by what he believed and his principles... It might be hard for someone that knew him, but he made that perfectly clear..
                I guess I'll just chalk it up to convenience his beliefs and principles changed into exactly what they needed to once he felt compelled to justify his actions. Yeah, it is hard. I'll always defend anyone's right to make the choice, even if I don't like it, or don't agree with a particular rationalization.
                "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

                "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

                "Even what those with the greatest reputation for knowing it all claim to understand and defend are but opinions..." -Heraclitus, Fragments

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                • #38
                  Iam sorry but in my eyes That is the biggest copout I've ever heard, and all that you are using that for is to maintain your disdain for Clayton's actions. So you can keep the stance to look down upon what he did. But you know it's not my place to argue with you about this, you knew him I did not. I will say this though, after a serious spinal cord injury it is obviously common for someone's values and beliefs to change, especially to those that "adjust" to accommodate the injuried lifestyle. It seems to me most people that don't "adjust" their beliefs and principles don't change with the injury that's the battle they find themselves in as they don't want to accept or adjust. I understand you didn't read his book, understandable a lot of people wouldn't want to read something like that within the first chapters.it's ugly, it's a taboo he knew this. and I'm sure even more so since you knew him.. But once you brush the angry banter aside there is a lot of truth to the points he brings up theyre not subjective and/or Just a matter of opinion most people just don't want to address it, look at it, or at least minimize them. Ive noticed this anomaly my entire life as I'm a very harsh realistic to the point person, even in able-bodied life people blatantly lie to themselves to "soften" harsh realities, make themselves feel better to get by. This really isn't a problem I'm not going to try and burst protective bubbles they build around them selves, if that's what makes them feel better and I believe Clayton was the same way. The problem is once you become disabled the I won't call them lies i'll try and be tasteful so I'll say exaggerations, safety bubblesbecome more prominent and more troubling become the "correct" perspective you could say reality because they need to be stronger and more enforced Because living with an injury/ illiness is a harder reality, therefore for most they become even more necessary . Results Are these perspectives are shoved at us, claimed as reality mostly in rehab, but of course many fellow disabled live by them. For people like myself and obviously Clayton that's not going to fly, so of course our harsh realistic some would say cynical perspective is brushed off as a "bad attitude" obviously a defensive reActive protocol to support the backbone of these " exaggerations". The problem I see is after serious disabilities everything becomes a massive generalization this happens of course to adjust to the much smaller parameters ( categorical facts ) of disabled life. And you know what it's all simply because we don't have a better option so that's the best we can do... For now!!

                  Something I don't understand is how you can look down on what he did but say that Christies story is somehow "mostly positive ". I agree he didn't escape a life of dependency, with his function he was independent. Maybe it's that you actually knew him, where as you have a ignorant point of view towards her story other than what was chosen to be written about... Idk
                  Last edited by JamesMcM; 01-07-2016, 05:58 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by JamesMcM View Post
                    Iam sorry but in my eyes That is the biggest copout I've ever heard, and all that you are using that for is to maintain your disdain for Clayton's actions. So you can keep the stance to look down upon what he did. But you know it's not my place to argue with you about this, you knew him I did not. I will say this though, after a serious spinal cord injury it is obviously common for someone's values and beliefs to change, especially to those that "adjust" to accommodate the injuried lifestyle. It seems to me most people that don't "adjust" their beliefs and principles don't change with the injury that's the battle they find themselves in as they don't want to accept or adjust. I understand you didn't read his book, understandable a lot of people wouldn't want to read something like that within the first chapters.it's ugly, it's a taboo he knew this. and I'm sure even more so since you knew him.. But once you brush the angry banter aside there is a lot of truth to the points he brings up theyre not subjective and/or Just a matter of opinion most people just don't want to address it, look at it, or at least minimize them. Ive noticed this anomaly my entire life as I'm a very harsh realistic to the point person, even in able-bodied life people blatantly lie to themselves to "soften" harsh realities, make themselves feel better to get by. This really isn't a problem I'm not going to try and burst protective bubbles they build around them selves, if that's what makes them feel better and I believe Clayton was the same way. The problem is once you become disabled the I won't call them lies i'll try and be tasteful so I'll say exaggerations, safety bubblesbecome more prominent and more troubling become the "correct" perspective you could say reality because they need to be stronger and more enforced Because living with an injury/ illiness is a harder reality, therefore for most they become even more necessary . Results Are these perspectives are shoved at us, claimed as reality mostly in rehab, but of course many fellow disabled live by them. For people like myself and obviously Clayton that's not going to fly, so of course our harsh realistic some would say cynical perspective is brushed off as a "bad attitude" obviously a defensive reActive protocol to support the backbone of these " exaggerations". The problem I see is after serious disabilities everything becomes a massive generalization this happens of course to adjust to the much smaller parameters ( categorical facts ) of disabled life. And you know what it's all simply because we don't have a better option so that's the best we can do... For now!!

                    Something I don't understand is how you can look down on what he did but say that Christies story is somehow "mostly positive ". I agree he didn't escape a life of dependency, with his function he was independent. Maybe it's that you actually knew him, where as you have a ignorant point of view towards her story other than what was chosen to be written about... Idk
                    Yeah, my issues with Clayton's actions are entirely based on knowing him before (and after), and also knowing how much potential to help others he still had left in him.

                    Eta: FWIW, I have read his book many times. There is precious little objective truth to be found anywhere within. It may be true for you, it may resonate strongly with you, but it does not with everyone. Whether or not anyone agrees or disagrees doesn't matter much as to its objectivity. What makes it decidedly not objective is its lack of balance. When it comes to any given human's experiences in life there is no objectivity of response. There can be plenty of agreement and disagreement but subjective is all we've got when expressing our feelings.
                    Last edited by Oddity; 01-07-2016, 07:24 PM.
                    "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

                    "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

                    "Even what those with the greatest reputation for knowing it all claim to understand and defend are but opinions..." -Heraclitus, Fragments

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      What you stated cannot be argued with because an argument can be made that anything is subjective , but the completely unrealistic, ridiculous, far-fetched claims comes to that interpretation ( being suggestive ) from the perspective of not wanting to believe the opposite for example: " everything happens for a reason" I couldn't possibly put a reason As to why a child would be molested, murdered among many other things this often comes from a religious stance but when faced with tragedy it's nice to hear. And it's easy to reinforce when a few victimized childuses that tragedy to become a sexual abuse advocate or a detective that saves another child from a similar fate. But of course the child that was killed after, or the one that is scared and becomes a cycle path because of it or suicide won't get the same spot light, uglier more common sorry. Let's look at a common one among the disabled community " nothing is impossible as long as you work hard enough" so walk, jump, get a complete C1 to move his arm use dexterity wire something, knit something floss his own teetg etc. But that's ugly that's a taboo so we focus on a quadriplegic that gets lifted into a kayak has his hands strap to the paddles there you go nothing is impossible when really come on think about it that is a completely plausible and realistic thing to do with a little effort from some friends and a decent head on your shoulders simple ... for me something simple that comes to mind move my fingers Become 200 pounds of solid distributed muscle Like before, bench 300 pounds again, belatedly false, no amount of Hardwork can get me to that point now . Unfortunately as of right now it's impossible for me to do, and because your disability although far less severe than mine still there are plenty of things ( if I knew your specifics, not that I care to) I could point out many things that are impossible for you to do, want to realize that or not. whether those things mean anything to you or not or whether that point is "petty" in your eyes because someone else can do it for you is ill relevant i'm talking about you , right now on your own. i'm just telling you the reality. Or like Clayton wrote ( i'm paraphrasing not quoting ) I climbed a mountain, you didn't climb anything someone climbed the mountain before you set everything up and then you hand cycled up the rope! I was a trainer certified rig and rappel, as well as high angle rescue technician at the age of 18 under the same man that trained the JTF2! Repelling, ascending etc not only can it not be done independently without good hand function and dexterity, especially if you are trying to transition between the two well hanging. But it is not Rock climbing figuratively or literally just no haha I wanted to be a fighter pilot. My vision was not good enough and laser surgery is not an option therefore it's impossible harsh but true , now I'm a quadriplegic I cant be a ,A fighter pilot, an infantry soldier on front lines, A pro kickboxer things were almost impossible when I was healthy but I was a big defier and disbeliever in the impossible, still am to a more realistic extent. All these things are impossible now, for anyone paralyzed. I believe the treatment is possible ( many many supposed believers that nothing is impossible even though you're paralyzed on here, from rehab think the treatment is impossible ironic I know) but after chronic spinal cord injury for years I don't believe any of those things would be possible no matter what they put in you.

                      clayton Believed and I believe that living paralyzed is unacceptable, that bowel care is disgusting and undignified. Does that mean that liveing paralyzed "IS" unacceptable? Does that mean that bc "IS" disgusting and undignified? NOPE far from it!! Whether thousands agree with us or not ... So does That mean that the above are acceptable, arnt disgusting or undignified?? NOPE!! Far from it, even if billions agree with it even if the president agrees with it. WHY because it's subjective, It's a matter of perspective and a individuals decisions. But you know what if your legs are completely paralyzed ( let's just keep it simple one simplistic thing)you can't walk it's impossible, that's not subjective that's a fact. You can be thrown you can be lifted, you can Bounce, you can wheel your chair you can be placed in a machine to move your legs. But RIGHT NOW unfortunately it is impossible for any of us that have completely paralyzed legs to activate those legs and walk.

                      Believe me I could make an argument that nothing literally nothing is impossible, but it stands on thin ice to say the least , for example it probably isn't impossible to stand on the sun but that's going to involve Ridiculous technology , and the contribution of thousands of people. But the fact remains in the 1800s it's hard for us to realize but it was completely impossible for a human to touch foot on the moon, now we know that's not impossible. But back then quite literally it was completely impossible. I pray for a future where none of us are paralyzed, we can all jump and run etc. throw on a suit go for a swim in a volcano but believing, praying, hoping doesn't make er possible or realistic tho lmao
                      Last edited by JamesMcM; 01-07-2016, 10:57 PM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by JamesMcM View Post
                        for example: " everything happens for a reason"
                        Agreed. Isn't that the biggest line of bullshit you've ever heard? That's what I detest about platitudes; people say them because they sound nice and give some form of control to the person, but ultimately, they're not true. People who don't want to accept that everything is random are really just fearful of the lack of control.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by JamesMcM View Post
                          What you stated cannot be argued with because an argument can be made that anything is subjective , but the completely unrealistic, ridiculous, far-fetched claims comes to that interpretation ( being suggestive ) from the perspective of not wanting to believe the opposite for example: " everything happens for a reason" I couldn't possibly put a reason As to why a child would be molested, murdered among many other things this often comes from a religious stance but when faced with tragedy it's nice to hear. And it's easy to reinforce when a few victimized childuses that tragedy to become a sexual abuse advocate or a detective that saves another child from a similar fate. But of course the child that was killed after, or the one that is scared and becomes a cycle path because of it or suicide won't get the same spot light, uglier more common sorry. Let's look at a common one among the disabled community " nothing is impossible as long as you work hard enough" so walk, jump, get a complete C1 to move his arm use dexterity wire something, knit something floss his own teetg etc. But that's ugly that's a taboo so we focus on a quadriplegic that gets lifted into a kayak has his hands strap to the paddles there you go nothing is impossible when really come on think about it that is a completely plausible and realistic thing to do with a little effort from some friends and a decent head on your shoulders simple ... for me something simple that comes to mind move my fingers Become 200 pounds of solid distributed muscle Like before, bench 300 pounds again, belatedly false, no amount of Hardwork can get me to that point now . Unfortunately as of right now it's impossible for me to do, and because your disability although far less severe than mine still there are plenty of things ( if I knew your specifics, not that I care to) I could point out many things that are impossible for you to do, want to realize that or not. whether those things mean anything to you or not or whether that point is "petty" in your eyes because someone else can do it for you is ill relevant i'm talking about you , right now on your own. i'm just telling you the reality. Or like Clayton wrote ( i'm paraphrasing not quoting ) I climbed a mountain, you didn't climb anything someone climbed the mountain before you set everything up and then you hand cycled up the rope! I was a trainer certified rig and rappel, as well as high angle rescue technician at the age of 18 under the same man that trained the JTF2! Repelling, ascending etc not only can it not be done independently without good hand function and dexterity, especially if you are trying to transition between the two well hanging. But it is not Rock climbing figuratively or literally just no haha I wanted to be a fighter pilot. My vision was not good enough and laser surgery is not an option therefore it's impossible harsh but true , now I'm a quadriplegic I cant be a ,A fighter pilot, an infantry soldier on front lines, A pro kickboxer things were almost impossible when I was healthy but I was a big defier and disbeliever in the impossible, still am to a more realistic extent. All these things are impossible now, for anyone paralyzed. I believe the treatment is possible ( many many supposed believers that nothing is impossible even though you're paralyzed on here, from rehab think the treatment is impossible ironic I know) but after chronic spinal cord injury for years I don't believe any of those things would be possible no matter what they put in you.

                          clayton Believed and I believe that living paralyzed is unacceptable, that bowel care is disgusting and undignified. Does that mean that liveing paralyzed "IS" unacceptable? Does that mean that bc "IS" disgusting and undignified? NOPE far from it!! Whether thousands agree with us or not ... So does That mean that the above are acceptable, arnt disgusting or undignified?? NOPE!! Far from it, even if billions agree with it even if the president agrees with it. WHY because it's subjective, It's a matter of perspective and a individuals decisions. But you know what if your legs are completely paralyzed ( let's just keep it simple one simplistic thing)you can't walk it's impossible, that's not subjective that's a fact. You can be thrown you can be lifted, you can Bounce, you can wheel your chair you can be placed in a machine to move your legs. But RIGHT NOW unfortunately it is impossible for any of us that have completely paralyzed legs to activate those legs and walk.

                          Believe me I could make an argument that nothing literally nothing is impossible, but it stands on thin ice to say the least , for example it probably isn't impossible to stand on the sun but that's going to involve Ridiculous technology , and the contribution of thousands of people. But the fact remains in the 1800s it's hard for us to realize but it was completely impossible for a human to touch foot on the moon, now we know that's not impossible. But back then quite literally it was completely impossible. I pray for a future where none of us are paralyzed, we can all jump and run etc. throw on a suit go for a swim in a volcano but believing, praying, hoping doesn't make er possible or realistic tho lmao

                          Yeah, some things are impossible. This holds true for everyone, AB or PWD. Whether anyone "climbs a mountain" is some what arbitrary. Even ABs use adaptations suited to their ability. Ropes, rigging, Sherpas "pre-climbing" the route. Because it isn't done in the same way doesn't mean it is not done.

                          Everything does happen for a reason. I'd love to hear the explanation of how our universe is not causal. Being unaware of any specific causality doesn't mean there is none.

                          How we react to encouragement, whether we consider it platitude, or condescending, or uplifting, etc doesn't objectively define what it really is. That comes from our own attitudes and beliefs, which is why I think encouraging a positive mindset is important because it lays the foundation for a positive reality. We move toward what we create in our minds. We might not ever get there, but "mind is the builder". Whatever our experiences will become they begin between our ears.

                          The purpose for tragedy is plain to me. Without it there could be no human recognition of joy. "Random" is a colloquism that has no basis in a causal universe to describe experiences. It is useful in statistics, when properly defined and constrained, but that is about it.
                          "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

                          "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

                          "Even what those with the greatest reputation for knowing it all claim to understand and defend are but opinions..." -Heraclitus, Fragments

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                          • #43
                            "Everything does happen for a reason" yes of course it does! But it's not in the sense of some spiritually guided uplifting nonsense only leading to positive outcome it is in the very essence all at random, no specific purpose !!! yeah definitely casual couldn't be any more casual . The reason I am paralyzed is I didn't put my seatbelt on, The reason so many are dead in Paris is because some nut bag pulled a trigger!! The reason we made it to the moon is because many believers got together on one outlandish goal leading into its accomplishment. But say tomorrow the rabies virus finally evolves ( something virologists are very scared of ) it can now travel by air, and it now prefers humans as it's host leading to the 100% death ratio to spread like wild fire, or The gases from the ocean floor reach our atmosphere or some other kind of ungodly unimaginable nutball cataclysmic event takes place humans nah earth is gone!! A tragedy but how is this tragedies obvious, plain purpose to allow the human recognition of joy?? Because in this very very unrealistic "cough", hypothetical reality there are no more massively egotistical human minds to interpret joy??

                            The idea of what is and isn't positive thinking is subjective too. Telling someone paralyzed from the neck down that nothing is impossible in my eyes is negative it either sets them up for disappointment or delusion because it's a blatant lie. Yes many things are impossible for able-bodied people too but to a much lesser extent than that of a disabled person again that is a categorical fact. If you argue that you have lead yourself to the exact conclusion that the supposed "positive thinking" rehab fills us with leads some to delusion!! But again I'm willing to bet you see that as a positive thing, why worry about the inevitable. And that's fair... The problem I came across is since day one I have expected or at least hope for a solution to my problem. Obviously this ideology of a solution was "Massive" at first you know a treatment or you know at the very least a choice, then it became more realistic little by little instead of solutions my hope was for attempts. But Kingston general didn't provider any ( in fact they assumed that preventing death of my mind not my body thowas a solution, again talk about generalization) Toronto rehab didn't provide one and so on.
                            instead I was given nothing but accommodations, assumptions, a disregard for my individuality, leading to a massive generalization on what my attitude should and shouldn't be, and then to top it off massive exaggeration or blatant lies... Again not everyone's going to see It the same but it was really troubling when a paraplegic rolled into my room to tell me "don't worry it took me five years but eventually I adapted " I looked at her as if she was a lame darth Vader trying to pull me to the Dark side, and a kind of willy wonka character that has been in the cage too long and succumb to it parameters. That is when I vowed never to give in to the chair , and started searching for my own "attempts" despite being told how foolish or impossible it was by my fellow disable only strengthening my cause not to succumb

                            Btw The point on climbing the mountain is that to actually physically grab and climb that mountain is much more demanding to an individual, takes much more skill, is much more strenuous on the body, involves more and is more difficult etc. so yes the deed is done either way, the end goal was met by both. But the two paths were very different, One actually tests and put the human full potential and ability to the task, The other path is supported paved straight and ultimately shows what accommodations can do.
                            Last edited by JamesMcM; 01-08-2016, 06:54 PM.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Le Todd View Post
                              Agreed. Isn't that the biggest line of bullshit you've ever heard? That's what I detest about platitudes; people say them because they sound nice and give some form of control to the person, but ultimately, they're not true. People who don't want to accept that everything is random are really just fearful of the lack of control.
                              Yes it is but I hear lines like this on this on a daily basis, I don't like it but people use it to get by. Lack of control terms of my own body is always something I feared because it affects my ability to control the things around me and my day as well as my interactions with anything. And quite frankly it drives me absolutely insane, makes me miserable and angry towards my caregivers because they have complete control of me. They're trying to help, for a paycheck of course and I need to be nicer but I just can't stand it despite my best effort's I don't do well on the on being nicer. Call me a control freak, but a man needs a little control of his body. In terms of getting shot tomorrow, an astroid landing fat on my head spontaneous combustion I couldnt give two shits bring it on haha
                              Last edited by JamesMcM; 01-08-2016, 07:01 PM.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Oddity View Post
                                Everything does happen for a reason. I'd love to hear the explanation of how our universe is not causal. Being unaware of any specific causality doesn't mean there is none.
                                When assholes say everything happens for a reason, they're not meaning it in a logical way you stated; they mean the big man in the clouds foresaw it, and had it happen to them for some supernatural purpose.

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