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  • #46
    Originally posted by SCI-Nurse View Post
    In my experience, I have never encountered anyone with a SCI who was unable to find a way to end their own life if they really were determined to do so. We take suicidal comments very seriously, even from our high tetraplegic patients. I am not going to go into the methods that we have seen used successfully, but yes, a number have found a permanent solution for their situation in spite of a high level injury.

    (KLD)
    well I guess I just haven't thought about it hard enough, or I'm just not as creative. I guess I am biased to the traditional ways that you hear about able-bodied people using. Im imagine for the most part they're forced to use more extreme or undignified methods though without getting into it of course.

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    • #47
      What is dignified to the traditional ways that able-bodied people use? Ya pulled me into it.
      I have had periodic paralysis all my life. I lost my ability to walk in 2011 beginning with a spinal block, which was used for a hip fracture caused by periodic paralysis.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Garyis View Post
        "...Suicide is selfish, and easy, why draw others into your drama?..." How do you figure that it is selfish?

        Suicide is no longer a crime in Canada as it was removed from the Criminal Code of Canada in 1972 by the Parliament of Canada. I'm certain that the same is true in the U.S. 'Assisted suicide' is a crime. Even though it is a crime, it doesn't make it wrong. There are those who fully appreciate the reasons for the decision of a loved one to end their life and do what is necessary to make it happen so as no one is deemed responsible. I'm not saying I fully support this but I see the logic in it.

        My two kids and sister all understand my intention at some point in my life to do just that. It may be years down the road or it may be sooner, the pain will be the deciding factor. I've been living with pain for 30 years, and 24/7 chronic pain for the past 15 years; I'm tired of it. Ex-rays yesterday at my Orthopedic doctors office showed severe deterioration of my left ischial bone, rough edges, no fat no muscles, just skin over rough bones; "Your skin will break down, I can't possibly predict when, but at your age it could be any time. Stay off your butt is all I can say, and this isn't reasonable or realistic I know."

        I
        occupational therapist next Tuesday to see what she can do to help.
        I figure suicide is selfish for a number of reasons.


        First I want to draw a distinction between giving one's life for others (e.g. Thic Quang Duc's self-immolation to draw attention to the Christian massacre of Buddhists in 1960's Vietnam), and killing oneself as a result of existential crisis (e.g. judging one's continued existence void of meaning, purpose, value, or merit).


        There is no doubt in my mind our lives are our own to live, or not to live. I support suicide being a legal option.


        I don't think I really need to explain why existential suicide is selfish. However, since you asked, I'll let you answer: To what extent would you allow anyone else's ideas about the value of life, in general, or your existence, in particular, to influence a decision to commit suicide?


        As usual I'm prepared to be wrong, but I strongly suspect no one else's opinion, or feelings, would matter more than your own. That's a pre-requisite of selfish. Especially if we knowingly cause an other's pain, to relieve our own.

        Ownership of our life is integral to being a sovereign individual; being so, does not relieve us of owning (or acknowledging) the extent to which we act to exclusively benefit ourselves, meaning: without regard to any consequences other than the satisfaction of our desire.

        To be clear: I don't believe suicide is "selfish" as a value judgement; I see it being selfish as a necessity.

        Whether anyone thinks that's a "good" thing or a "bad" thing is their call to make.

        To cling to life is selfish; to take one's life is selfish. It's a paradox worthy of a Zen treatment, so I'll leave my post on this topic quoting from the Shobogenzo Shoji, chapter 1: Genjo-Koan. In which, Dogen Zenji says,


        It is a mistake to think that life turns into death. Life is a position at one time [...]. Death is a position at one time [...]. In life there is nothing other than life. In death, there is nothing other than death. Therefore, when life comes, just live. And when death comes, just die. Neither avoid them nor desire them.
        Last edited by Oddity; 10-03-2014, 11:53 PM. Reason: To clarify
        "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

        "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

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        • #49
          Originally posted by JamesMcM View Post
          well I guess I just haven't thought about it hard enough, or I'm just not as creative. I guess I am biased to the traditional ways that you hear about able-bodied people using. Im imagine for the most part they're forced to use more extreme or undignified methods though without getting into it of course.
          At-a-boy! "Always look on...the bright...siiiide...of life! Dee-doo, dee-doo-pee-doo-pee-doo!"

          "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

          "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by JamesMcM View Post
            well I guess I just haven't thought about it hard enough, or I'm just not as creative. I guess I am biased to the traditional ways that you hear about able-bodied people using. Im imagine for the most part they're forced to use more extreme or undignified methods though without getting into it of course.
            I don't seem to have thought about it hard enough either James as like you I'm a high level quad who intends to end my own life. Ventilated so I have 24 hour carers, don't have much privacy and the method I would chose Sodium Nembutal is impossible to administer without assistance. It's bad enough being tortured in a non functioning shell of a body then tortured again trying to find a way to end it without suffering.

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            • #51
              As I said in an earlier post, I believe as humans we are self-centered by nature. Everything we do is internalized--every feeling. Even when we convince ourselves we are doing things only for the good of others, we are still really satisfying our own need. I do believe suicide is ultimately a selfish act. Or you can call it "self-centered," if that makes you feel better. Either way suicide is about yourself. Even in Oddity's Thic Quang Duc's self-immolation example, where ending your life is about "giving one's life for others," it's still really about the person committing the act. There are many other ways to effect change other than just killing one's self for attention, even if it's attention to a cause that helps others.

              There are people on CareCure that obviously believe in suicide. They're here talking about it. And I'm hearing some strong opinions. It sounds to me like they're looking for external validation of those internalized opinions. I hear people saying that suicide is a personal choice. Isn't a personal choice always about "you."

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              • #52
                Originally posted by ala View Post
                As I said in an earlier post, I believe as humans we are self-centered by nature. Everything we do is internalized--every feeling. Even when we convince ourselves we are doing things only for the good of others, we are still really satisfying our own need. I do believe suicide is ultimately a selfish act. Or you can call it "self-centered," if that makes you feel better. Either way suicide is about yourself. Even in Oddity's Thic Quang Duc's self-immolation example, where ending your life is about "giving one's life for others," it's still really about the person committing the act. There are many other ways to effect change other than just killing one's self for attention, even if it's attention to a cause that helps others.

                There are people on CareCure that obviously believe in suicide. They're here talking about it. And I'm hearing some strong opinions. It sounds to me like they're looking for external validation of those internalized opinions. I hear people saying that suicide is a personal choice. Isn't a personal choice always about "you."

                In my view there is a distinction between selfish and self-centered, in your context. It has to do with the extent to which the individual acting is considering, or values, or is being motivated by the act's potential affects on others. I think this distinction applies to most thoughts and actions. E.g. Eating is self-centered. Eating the last food knowing others will suffer for it is selfish. Perhaps it is a distinction too subtle (or maybe too obtuse!) for some to appreciate. To fit within my world views, intentions (maybe better "motivations") are almost everything. My world view paves the road to Hell with inconsideration, intolerance, malice, and contempt. Not good will toward others.

                There is also a distinction of opposites in the valuation of life, between an act like Duc's and existential suicide. Self-immolation pre-supposes a high value on life, otherwise it could not compel witnesses to seek change. (Whether, or not, it actually does this is open for debate, but the mindset of a cause motivated "self-immolator" is predicated on his life having value.) In contrast, someone in the midst of existential crisis has presupposed his life (and often life in general) to have no value.

                Regardless, and in nearly any context, I think suicide is an act of desperation; whether its authentic intention is to benefit others, or in disregard of others. That given, considering desperate acts does inspire within me a certain skepticism; for reasons I'm not yet able to articulate well, including self-immolation.
                Last edited by Oddity; 10-04-2014, 10:50 AM.
                "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

                "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

                Comment


                • #53
                  It's wonderful to have a dialogue with so many opinions.

                  Please don't vote for any laws that compromise my choices for my life/death.
                  And the truth shall set you free.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Oddity View Post
                    At-a-boy! "Always look on...the bright...siiiide...of life! Dee-doo, dee-doo-pee-doo-pee-doo!"

                    Can't see your video, based on your personality from your previous post towards me, it is some type of smart ass satire to express an empty point. That's fine and dandy, I'm just a little confused as to your earlier posts were easily viewed as clearly an opposition towards suicide, especially assisted suicide, your tone in your writing really expressed this. Then another member pitches in his opinion disagreeing with you and then all of a sudden you're all for one having the right to their own life. Weren't we talking about oxymorons, with an extra dose of moron?

                    You talk about Brightside well I'm a realist, by being a realist sometimes you borderline being cynical, and by being cynical sometimes you're just being realistic. Not all the time but on average. I find an optimist to basically be acting in denial, to only focus on what we will call the "positives" in life, is completely hiding from the other half of life in a sense. light does not exist without darkness, happiness without sadness, positive without negative. Something I think people fail to realize, it's all relative, completely subjective to how you feel at that moment. So realize it's there and live with both, you're going to anyways whether you want to or not, delusions, denial, pretending doesn't change anything. Talk about being really cynical, high on the real.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by nonoise View Post
                      What is dignified to the traditional ways that able-bodied people use? Ya pulled me into it.
                      It's done efficiently, guaranteed and by their own means. Usually quick and painless, but some go for the long and arduous.

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                      • #56
                        Let's get this in perspective the planet is 15bn years old,we exist for a tiny fraction of that it is unimportant whether we die now or in 10yrs or whatever other than ones own desire to experience that time, if you are happy with your life experiences and exist in a world you cannot tolerate then it is not unreasonable to look at the options. If you discuss this with your loved ones and they understand your pain and still expect you to live for them who is being selfish? I'm no tt in that position, my family understand my reasons but cannot assist me ,the penalty of a murder charge is too great for me to allow them to risk. I admit mine is a selfish decision but I am the one living as a C3 quad unable to do anything for myself including breathe, the choice to live or die should be mine, selfish or not. Not everyone posting in threads like this is looking for affirmation of their decision, some might be trying to make others aware that we need changes in law to allow for individual choice and its only by discussion and finding other like minded folk that can understand the subject.

                        I've read James's posts here and on Apparelyzed and can totally relate to what he is going through but then maybe as an independent active able bodied person pre injury to now living life as a high level quad totally dependent on others it is because we share the same view on the value of our lives and the price we pay for living like this mainly for other people.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by ala View Post
                          As I said in an earlier post, I believe as humans we are self-centered by nature. Everything we do is internalized--every feeling. Even when we convince ourselves we are doing things only for the good of others, we are still really satisfying our own need. I do believe suicide is ultimately a selfish act. Or you can call it "self-centered," if that makes you feel better. Either way suicide is about yourself. Even in Oddity's Thic Quang Duc's self-immolation example, where ending your life is about "giving one's life for others," it's still really about the person committing the act. There are many other ways to effect change other than just killing one's self for attention, even if it's attention to a cause that helps others.

                          There are people on CareCure that obviously believe in suicide. They're here talking about it. And I'm hearing some strong opinions. It sounds to me like they're looking for external validation of those internalized opinions. I hear people saying that suicide is a personal choice. Isn't a personal choice always about "you."
                          Exactly you're right, it is just part of being human to be self-centered. Alan Watts describes it as you are the center of your universe, and technically that is true. Really what are we arguing about here, most (if not all) of The people that had the most influence on our history were really just the most selfish. Conquerors, presidents, royalty, tyrants, whatever you call them it's true. Name one billionaire people that have the money to influence the society we live in today that didn't have to be selfish to get where they are, it is almost a necessity. Even to be shall we say moderately successful in today's society lawyer, Dr. you have to spend a ridiculous amount on school, well you're doing that there's people starving to death, working harder than you'll ever work for $.10 a day. So I generally laugh when someone calls me selfish, especially another pampered westerner. Turn on your air-conditioner selfish, turn on your heat selfish, fill your fridge selfish, turn on your Warmwater selfish...

                          Let's just look at suicide though, I agree it's selfish to end your life because you feel you're suffering. The reason it is selfish is because you hurt the people around you friends family whatever. What if we turn the tables around we find ourselves in the paradox, don't we because is it not selfish for them to want you to live a life where you are in mental and physical pain suffering, life you deem not worth living. So who's more selfish? Is it just the one killing themselves because it's just one of them against a majority, greater number of people equals more damage shall we say, is that it? Well we could look at the fact that they're walking well I'm forced to sit is that selfish? to flaunt your ability to walk in front of me while I sit?? but is that selfish of me to find that selfish??? Uh oh seems like we're kind of on a stupid topic...

                          Here's the thing when I was injured, I was conscious I knew what happened i'm not going lose fighting and have people touching me helping me with everything including going to the bathroom, no no. So I told them to leave me in the field, let me die naturally multiple times before I went unconscious. Of course they didn't, why is this? They did it because in general society sees death as the ultimate fear, the ultimate consequence, must be avoided at all costs, no matter what. Well that is a massive matter of opinion. And in my opinion a massive bowl of shit double layered, build on and created by foundation of cowardliness. But I must keep in mind we live in a time where being a coward is encouraged, and being brave is frowned upon. Someone breaks in your house, threatens you, shits on your lawn etc you're supposed to call someone else that is equipped with special equipment and greater numbers to deal with it, rather than deal with it yourself. If you do try to deal with it you face conviction. I once had a man spit my face, once I proceeded to beat the living piss out of him (to stand up for myself, repair, defend my honor and integrity) I almost faced an assault charges hahaha that's something else. But look at me I'am ranting I've express my point.
                          Last edited by JamesMcM; 10-04-2014, 02:14 PM.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by mrb View Post
                            Let's get this in perspective the planet is 15bn years old,we exist for a tiny fraction of that it is unimportant whether we die now or in 10yrs or whatever other than ones own desire to experience that time, if you are happy with your life experiences and exist in a world you cannot tolerate then it is not unreasonable to look at the options. If you discuss this with your loved ones and they understand your pain and still expect you to live for them who is being selfish? I'm no tt in that position, my family understand my reasons but cannot assist me ,the penalty of a murder charge is too great for me to allow them to risk. I admit mine is a selfish decision but I am the one living as a C3 quad unable to do anything for myself including breathe, the choice to live or die should be mine, selfish or not. Not everyone posting in threads like this is looking for affirmation of their decision, some might be trying to make others aware that we need changes in law to allow for individual choice and its only by discussion and finding other like minded folk that can understand the subject.

                            I've read James's posts here and on Apparelyzed and can totally relate to what he is going through but then maybe as an independent active able bodied person pre injury to now living life as a high level quad totally dependent on others it is because we share the same view on the value of our lives and the price we pay for living like this mainly for other people.
                            One or two might be killing time until someone comes to help them do something (thanks to SCI). And likes to debate, express opinions. Let's not forget the completely disgusting, pathetic, unnatural things that need to be done to us to stay alive you might not feel that way but if you feel the same way as me that's how I feel. Just saying.

                            I swore I was only going to stay on this website for research purposes for a cure, sadly I've made this thread before that commitment and my desire to debate has overpowered me yet again.

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                            • #59
                              In the US and Canada the job of 911 responders is to do everything possible to save the person/people at the address they are sent to. This is why home hospice never calls 911 when the person receiving pallative care dies. They call the coroner or an on call doctor to come and declare death and then the body can be released to either an ME or a funeral home. Unfortunately for you someone called 911.
                              Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, "I will try again tomorrow."

                              Disclaimer: Answers, suggestions, and/or comments do not constitute medical advice expressed or implied and are based solely on my experiences as a SCI patient. Please consult your attending physician for medical advise and treatment. In the event of a medical emergency please call 911.

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                              • #60
                                "I figure suicide is selfish for a number of reasons." -Oddity

                                First I want to draw a distinction between giving one's life for others (e.g. Thic Quang Duc's self-immolation to draw attentionto theChristian massacre of Buddhists in 1960's Vietnam), and killing oneself as a result of existential crisis (e.g. judging one'scontinuedexistence void of meaning, purpose, value, or merit).

                                Okay, but no need to draw this distinction. This looks to be a fun conversation but I most likely won?t carry it any further. Everyone hasthe right to their own beliefs. I enjoy your writing.

                                "There is no doubt in my mind our lives are our own to live, or not to live. I support suicide being a legal option."

                                Okay.

                                "I don't think I really need to explain why existential suicide is selfish. However, since you asked, I'll let you answer: To whatextentwould you allow anyone else's ideas about the value of life, in general, or your existence, in particular, influence adecision to commitsuicide?"

                                None. But "existential suicide" "...anyone else's ideas about the value of life” Should be written as 'anyone else's ideas about the valueof 'mylife', as it is ‘my' life that ought to be respected by others.

                                Camus, the great French absurdist said that suicide is the only truly serious philosophical problem. Man's courageous quest to find the reason behind his own personal existence forms the core of existential philosophy. The existential hero grapples with the absurdity of the universe and decides to take complete responsibility for his actions.The inability to find this reason or the 'meaning' of one's life is what leads to existential angst. Suicide is an extreme form of existential angst where man rejects the freedom begotten by the act of being responsible for his actions and gives in to the inherent meaninglessness of the world. Thus, suicide is not absurd as far as existentialists go, as much as it is succumbing to the absurdity of the universe.

                                I laugh at this "Man's courageous quest to find the reason behind his own personal existence…"

                                Leave existentialism out of this please, it was a big part of my life during my - searching for meaning years - a 'courageous quest' which ended decades ago. I found my true path in Non-Dualism - Adviata - as are some of my close friends. Possibly the 180 degree opposite of Existentialism.

                                "As usual I'm prepared to be wrong, but I strongly suspect no one else's opinion, or feelings, would matter more than your own. That's a pre-requisite of selfish. Especially if we knowingly cause an other's pain, to relieve our own."

                                "Especially if we knowingly cause an other's pain, to relieve our own.?

                                Wow! This I would never do, it isn’t even in the equation.

                                "I strongly suspect no one else's opinion, or feelings, would matter more than your own."

                                How do you figure this? Myself personally, if this statement refers to me, I place a high value on others opinions and feelings and have talked intimately about this with my family and a number of close friends and not one expressed any emotions of being caused any pain by my future intentions, sadness yes, a sense of loss yes. I dig life, I love life, I want to live. I have been blessed with a good life. I am grateful for what I have and what I have done. I am not ready to leave, but, the option is on the table, and yes, unless an accident comes first, I have a plan.

                                "Ownership of our life is integral to being a sovereign individual; being so, does not relieve us of owning (or acknowledging) the extent to which we act exclusively to benefit ourselves."

                                "... the extent to which we act exclusively to benefit ourselves."

                                Still don’t get the point here and I do consider myself somewhat intelligent, but getting into philosophical discussions regarding a simple question "why is committing suicide selfish" can lead to endless words, on and on, as I have done here.

                                "To be clear: I don't believe suicide is "selfish" as a value judgement; I see it being selfish as a necessity."

                                Don't get what you are saying here; "...I see it being selfish as a necessity."

                                "Whether anyone thinks that's a "good" thing or a "bad" thing is their call to make."

                                "In life there is nothing other than life. In death, there is nothing other than death. Therefore, when life comes, just live. And when death comes, just die. Neither avoid them nor desire them.?

                                Amen to this, says it like it is!

                                Dogen Zenji says "To cling to life is selfish; to take one's life is selfish."

                                The sound of one hand clapping. I have zen in my blood, it is an integral part of my life.


                                Gary


                                It's a paradox worthy of a Zen treatment, so I'll leave my post on this topic quoting from the Shobogenzo Shoji, chapter 1: Genjo-Koan. In which, Dogen Zenji says,
                                Last edited by Garyis; 10-04-2014, 05:42 PM.
                                Gary Is = L-1 Para for 34 years.....................
                                ~~~~~~~~~~

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