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Mutilation of daughter as disability treatment

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    #91
    LOL
    oh geez.

    I addressed issues raised in this thread, and criticized the points/opinions expressed.

    If one is unable to hear criticism or prefer their thoughts be left alone, why bother expressing them in a public forum where a DISCUSSION on the issues is taking place?

    Oh well. I guess it is easier to attack typos and to make threads personal, than to actually have a thought.

    HaHa. Silliness. Waste of time.

    Comment


      #92
      Originally posted by Scorpion
      Ah, the intelligent retort I expected.
      I thought you liked the visual aspect of cartoons??
      T12-L2; Burst fracture L1: Incomplete walking with AFO's and cane since 1989

      My goal in life is to be as good of a person my dog already thinks I am. ~Author Unknown

      Comment


        #93
        For the life of me I can't see why my conceding that I don't know everything about the motivations of strangers makes me "disgusting".

        I must be though, because first chick said so, then Scorpion did. I don't mind having the opinions criticized, that's why we were having the discussion.

        I know several of us don't agree on this one. That's ok, it's not our kid, nor our problem. I don't understand the need to dismiss people that dare to disagree as "disgusting".

        Antiquity asked if we could discuss this without calling names and that's what we did until somebody got "disgusted". It was a good discussion.
        Blog:
        Does This Wheelchair Make My Ass Look Fat?

        Comment


          #94
          Just a thought... Do those who think it is disgusting actually have children? I could not imagine having to do this to my child but I would not want to put her in an institution when she got too big for me to care for either. Either way would be absolutely heartwrenching. I would also like to offer a response to the statement earlier that "Ashley was being subjected to treatment that even AB's wouldnt be subjected to". Many able bodied people choose to have hysterectomies for comfort whether it be to relieve cramps or the menses.
          T12-L2; Burst fracture L1: Incomplete walking with AFO's and cane since 1989

          My goal in life is to be as good of a person my dog already thinks I am. ~Author Unknown

          Comment


            #95
            The opinions were disgusting.

            Not my responsibility when people choose to internalize criticism of an opinion.

            Bethany, you choosing to single me out says quite a bit, especially when posts have been directly made personally against me.

            Again, silliness.

            Comment


              #96
              Originally posted by betheny
              For the life of me I can't see why my conceding that I don't know everything about the motivations of strangers makes me "disgusting" . . .
              Oh, geeze, somebody call the Waaaambulance! C'mon, Bethany, I didn't call anyone names or call you or anyone else "disgusting". I don't think chick did either. Read my post again. I said "disgisting" in reference to the apparent ease of which so many people in this thread support the parents, almost without any question or hesitation. That disgusts me, and it's not simply because of someone disagreeing with me.

              Wait, I did say some people were "big babies" so I guess I did resort to name-calling. Oh well.

              Comment


                #97
                Antiquity, I guess I've ruined the discussion, which was presumably so good and decent, before my posts. I guess challenging opinions and not pointlessly pussyfooting around validating posters so they feel all good and tingly inside, is a bad thing.

                Scorp, maybe some people prefer "grunts" and "snorts", and other one syllable words in posts, rather than having to read words most grade school children can easily comprehend.

                The problem with grunting, is that it's a much less effective communication method without the all important visuals - scratching armpits, picking nose and toothless drooling.

                Have fun folks!

                Comment


                  #98
                  How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop?

                  How many posts does it take for a chick & scorpion tag team to unravel a 10 page intelligent opinionated thread all to hell?

                  uh 1
                  uh 2
                  uh 3

                  crunch!!!!

                  Do you remember this owl cartoon on Saturday mornings????
                  T12-L2; Burst fracture L1: Incomplete walking with AFO's and cane since 1989

                  My goal in life is to be as good of a person my dog already thinks I am. ~Author Unknown

                  Comment


                    #99
                    I still can't decide which decision I support. So glad I'm not in that position.

                    Ah, the spiraling of a thread when the Dictionary Duo show up.





                    Life isn't like a bowl of cherries or peaches. It's more like a jar of jalapenos--What you do today might burn your ass tomorrow.

                    If you ain't laughing, you ain't living, baby. Carlos Mencia

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by darkeyed_daisy
                      Just a thought... Do those who think it is disgusting actually have children? I could not imagine having to do this to my child but I would not want to put her in an institution when she got too big for me to care for either. Either way would be absolutely heartwrenching. I would also like to offer a response to the statement earlier that "Ashley was being subjected to treatment that even AB's wouldnt be subjected to". Many able bodied people choose to have hysterectomies for comfort whether it be to relieve cramps or the menses.
                      Hi DD, of course lots of AB's have all types of surgery everyday but with them, it's a choice, their choice. An AB wouldn't be forced to undergo the removal of an appendix, uterus or breast buds without their consent. Even in the case of AB minors, the age of consent for medical procedures is 14.

                      The last time something even remotely similar to this took place was during WWII when the Nazi's and Japanese experimented upon the Jews and Chinese respectively without their consent.

                      I honestly didn't think this was legal.

                      Comment


                        You see this is exactly the reason I tend to stay away from passionate discussions such as this ...... I hate the way they degenerate into "the black hole" of disrespect! However I simply cannot be silent here ......If I have learned nothing else in my 52 short years it is this ..... things are rarely as they "seem" to be .. and its so humbling to be wrong .... I know .... I have been wrong ... many many times before ...

                        WE DO NOT KNOW THESE PEOPLE .... however we know they are parents ... I am a parent ... parents generally LOVE their children (unless they(the parents) are mentally challenged or otherwise damaged in some way) ... these parents have made a number of decisions for their child ... we may or may not agree with their decisions but THEY live with those decisions not us ..... we can have an opinion but I do not believe we are entitled to any judgment because we do not live their lives ... I've always wondered (and I mean this in all sincerity) why are we so afraid to allow judgment to come in its own time in its own way and without our pitiful help ... IF there is judging to be done ... it will be done.... with or without us .... and for the record this is not God talk ... I believe the Universe will correct us when we do the wrong thing one way or another .... it doesn't need any help from us .... we are ALL in process .... making our own mistakes (or not) ongoing ... so what makes any of us think we know better I just don't get it .....

                        These debates are hard because they are so scary ... and there but for the grace of god go any of us .... there is no way we can make a blanket statement about a situation like Ashleys for everyone .. because as with sci every "injury" is unique and each situation so emotionally charged. This discussion has been very clinical in its description of procedures done to this child ... but for me the mitigating factor has been ..... and I'm taking a leap of faith here ... they were not made in a vaccum .. they were made out of LOVE .. hoping against hope that decision made was the right one .. FOR THEM ... maybe not the one we would have made but FOR THEM ..... let it be ... let it be ...

                        Obieone
                        There is nothing "disgusting" about our opinions because we don't agree ... they are just different ... we all deserve to be respected for our opinions ... even when they are not shared .... my husbands injury has taught me humility I never knew before and because of this I have no judgment of these parents .... absolutely none ....
                        ~ Be the change you wish to see in the world ~ Mahatma Gandi


                        " calling all Angels ...... calling all Angels ....walk me through this one .. don't leave me alone .... calling all Angels .... calling all Angels .... we're tryin' and we're hopin' cause we're not sure how ....... this .... goes ..."
                        Jane Siberry

                        Comment


                          And I thought sjeans comment would be the last. I had written a lengthy post this morning but decided against posting it.

                          Arg, as for the degeneration of this topic, I figured it was coming. There was name calling on the 2nd page of this thread, prior to posts #30 and #32 which is why I asked folks to keep it above board.

                          Anyway, here's what I was going to say.

                          I think a lot of our differences are due to perspective.

                          Some of us are speaking from the perspective of a loving parent faced with a difficult decision regarding the best course of action for a disabled child and are assuming that all other parents faced with this issue are equally capable of making purely selfless decisions.

                          Some have relatives who have institutionalized their disabled children because they could no longer care for them and have come to the conclusion that physically mutilating the disabled child in order to lessen the caregivers burden is acceptable and humane or at the least, the better of two evils.

                          Some are speaking from the perspective of a parent of a disabled child who understands that their childs disability renders them worthless in an ableist society. Because of this, their children are perceived as non human which makes them vulnerable to victimization and objectification by the medical establishment. As advocates, these parents fight daily battles to ensure that the rights of their children are upheld and respected.

                          Others are speaking from the perspective of the disabled child who was subjected to degrading and objectifying treatment and/or had parents who outwardly appeared loving and concerned (primarily because of the misconception that only a parent who loved their disabled child would keep him, otherwise he/she would have been institutionalized) but regularly made decisions for their own benefit rather than the benefit of their children. While it is true that parents often put the needs of their children before their own, it is also true that many don't.

                          I think it's important for those of us with disabilities to remember that many of the questionable things done "for our own good" such as the forced sterilizations, not only occured in 40's, but took place within the past few decades and are still taking place today.

                          I'm not sure what the abandonment of medical procedures that were common in the 70's/80's has to do with Ashley's case. I wouldn't put something like tendon transfer or the mitronoff in the medical experimentation category. Those procedures were FDA approved after rigorous testing for safety and efficacy and the benefits were shown to outweigh the risks of the surgery.

                          With Ashley, there is no previous precedent. She IS the experiment. The safety and efficacy of the treatments she's being subjected to have not been established. This begs the ethical question of whether disabled people who are unable to give consent should be used as subjects for medical experimentation. And before someone says that parents enroll disabled children into trials all the time without their consent, it's important to realize that there's animal data to support those treatments. In Ashley's case, has anyone determined the outcome and long term effects of the "Ashley Treatment" in animal models first? If not, is Ashley doubling as both the animal and human subject?

                          I said nothing in my post suggesting that I support the institutionalization of Ashley. I am against the institutionalization of the disabled as well as the abuse and mutilation of their bodies by the medical establishment and caregivers.

                          PDnemesis, it's funny because I thought about the quote you posted in #73 earlier. One thing I can be certain of is we'll scream bloody murder when folks start suggesting that the arms and legs of quads be removed to make them lighter and easier to lift, oh and more comfortable too. We'll be begging for the intervention of disabled rights activists then.

                          Regarding judgements, we're all passing judgement and viewing this situation through our own experiences.
                          Last edited by antiquity; 13 Jan 2007, 3:02 AM.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Scorpion
                            Oh, geeze, somebody call the Waaaambulance! C'mon, Bethany, I didn't call anyone names or call you or anyone else "disgusting". I don't think chick did either. Read my post again. I said "disgisting" in reference to the apparent ease of which so many people in this thread support the parents, almost without any question or hesitation. That disgusts me, and it's not simply because of someone disagreeing with me.

                            Wait, I did say some people were "big babies" so I guess I did resort to name-calling. Oh well.
                            I take umbrage at your insistence that people are supporting the parents without question or hesitation. I have kids, I've raised other people's kids, and I think this is a haunting situation that they are in.

                            Parenthood is hard. Parenting Ashley is harder. Just because I'm not judging her parents doesn't mean I blithely support mutilation of small children. I had a difficult time having my infant son circumcised LOL.

                            It's like you can't wrap your brain around the concept of "not judging". If we don't judge those parents harshly, to you and chick we're guilty of some disgusting support of the cruel parents.

                            In fact, no. We discussed it and weighed it and found it was not our place to judge or condemn. We are not in those parent's shoes and we're grateful. We think the evidence indicates that the parents are doing the best they can in the circumstances.

                            And yes, sometimes I internalize such generalizations. I think most people probably do. At one time I considered pointing out every time chick internalized but it wasn't worth the fight...it was fairly frequent. I think it is a human reaction.

                            I think antiquity is right, it is very much a matter of perspective. The parents here are all reserving judgment. We have a different set of life experiences and in this case the sum of the experiences equals a completely different answer.
                            Blog:
                            Does This Wheelchair Make My Ass Look Fat?

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by betheny
                              In fact, no. We discussed it and weighed it and found it was not our place to judge or condemn. We are not in those parent's shoes and we're grateful. We think the evidence indicates that the parents are doing the best they can in the circumstances.
                              Who is this "we" you keep referring to? So, the "majority" rules and those of us who dissent and choose to judge despite the decision of the "we" of this thread (or any other) shouldn't post? Mob-mentality once again rears its ugly head here at CareCure.

                              I judge Ashley's parents. I judge them harshly. And yes, I judge those who let them slide because of some wishy-washy "we aren't in their shoes" mentality.

                              It's funny how some of you don't judge parents who subject their disabled child to medical experiments for the sake of convenience but you're quick to judge chick and me for thinking your opinions and the parents' actions are disgusting--all the while there are others who have posted here sharing views similar to ours, yet you don't whine about them.

                              As for the rest of your passive-agressive post, I have no desire to bother commenting on it. You're content on your high-horse, and I don't need to try and knock you off it.

                              I'm done.

                              Comment


                                We = the ones that weren't comfortable judging, the ones not sure the Ashley treatment is worthy of condemnation.

                                I still don't understand why opinions differing from your own are qualified as disgusting. Sometimes people have different opinions and they are simply "different".

                                LOL. Passive-aggressive isn't a term frequently applied to me. I usually refrain from being a full-on bitch, or not. Not a lot of middle ground.
                                Blog:
                                Does This Wheelchair Make My Ass Look Fat?

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