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    Question to those practiced in chair scripting (Tilite Permobil)

    I am about to submit my script requirements for my chair.
    The script form asks for the Custom Frame Depth.
    Well, I do not know that dimension; I could hazard a guess but that would not give me an accurate
    chair.
    I am confident of the Occupied Frame Length (OFL) that I require. I am not confident that the Custom Frame Depth will result is an ideal frame configeration.
    It would be nice if clients had access to a working computer model ....

    My question is this; do Tilite/Permobil accept the OFL dimension (along with the front frame angle(FFA)) and re engineer to arrive at the Custom Frame Depth?
    My preference is the OFL & FFA along with the seat depth will provide a more accurate and satisfactory result.
    My thinking is that either the CFD & FFA or the OFL & FFA ( along with the seat depth ) are what is required but not both.
    Can anyone confirm? Thanks

    #2
    What is a "script form"? Is that the TiLite order form? All that really matters are the numbers entered on the official order form, so I assume that's what you're using.

    OFL isn't on the order form, but it is on the CAD drawing they produce for your sign off on the design. How I dialed in mine, and it came out correct, was to submit the order form with the specs best as I understood them, without the CFD spec, then reviewed the CAD to see how all the finer dimensions (several not on the order form). Once I saw what the OFL was, and the wheelbase, etc, on the CAD, I used the additional frame length adjustment of Custom Frame Depth to get it as close to perfect as possible, down to 1/4" increments (their tolerance) on the follow up review, re-submitting the same order form with the CFD adjustments made after reviewing the first CAD.

    "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

    "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

    Comment


      #3
      On my order form, there's the TSD1 which is the standard depth. I have 18" for the standard depth. This is the depth from the front of the back post to the front edge of the seat sling or seat pan.

      Also checked off is the TSD3 custom Frame depth: +1". Which means. an added inch from the front edge of the seat to the beginning of the frame bend. Gives and added inch to help grabbing the frame for transferring. If you add more than 2" there is an upcharge. An inch is perfect. You can be as specific as 1/4" increments.

      Comment


        #4
        Oddity .
        Hi ya Odd.
        Yes, that is the one, the TiLite order form. 26.5' OFL is what I am hitting for. I have done some calcs on distance gain using 90, 85, and 80 front angle at the FSH. The bend appears to be a radius of 4". To avoid that up-charge for reaching / exceeding 20", I have the max + 2.75" frame depth over my 17" seat depth.
        14" front end tube width and 22.25" castor centres. I have viewed a few and it looks like that caster centres are front lower frame width plus 4" (?)I think that 22.25 is doable, maybe less if they can. Lowest footplate position at 16.5" to keep the front frame tubes as low as possible.
        The chair worksheet I am working from gives OFL, Caster width and wheelbase as options.
        https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/16243...0Worksheet.pdf
        Last edited by slow_runner; 1 Jul 2021, 7:31 AM.

        Comment


          #5
          Patrick Madsen.
          Hi there Patrick.
          Reference to the TSD1 SEAT DEPTH "Measure from front of back post to the front edge of seat sling. Frame bend will start .5” in front of seat sling unless Custom Frame Depth is specified, or the combination of specifications affect the rolling dynamics of the chair. TSD1 ❑ 12” ❑ 13” ❑ 14” ❑ 15” ❑ 16” ❑ 17” ❑ 18” ❑ 19” STD
          TSD2 ❑ 20” $555
          TSD3 ❑ Custom Frame Depth: ________” Frame Depth Longer or Shorter Than Seat Depth (Measure from front of seat sling to beginning of frame bend. Ranges from 0.25” to 3” and can be given as specific as 1/4” increments. A negative Custom Frame Depth or specified above 3” may be available through our Creative Mobility Division. A Custom Frame Depth of 20” will have an additional charge) NCO

          I am reading that and seeing that I can go 17" + 2.75" without incurring a charge (?) 85 front frame at 18.5" FSH will gain me near enough to +1.62" - 80 will give me +3.3". I could be wrong but it is as near as until a CAD is presented.

          Anyone; critique away, I am happy to be corrected. Far better than ploughing on and stuffing up.
          Last edited by slow_runner; 1 Jul 2021, 3:11 AM.

          Comment


            #6
            Yeah, that sounds right, 17 + 2.75" for avoiding the up charge.

            Also, since neither the order form, nor the Creative Mobility Division options, include a spot for any of those additional "TiFit" measurement options on the "worksheet", I'd worry about using them without someone from TiLite explaining how they're used. Each of them has knock on effects to other standard measurements that aren't made clear, or related on any of the order forms or product catalogs. Seems weird.

            Regardless, I think you've just about exhausted the benefits of the mental exercise, and done a great job figuring out how things might turn out. Now it's time to get a CAD and see! You aren't on the hook for anything (in the US, at least), until you sign and return the CAD. There is no risk in having one worked up for you, other than any subsequent CAD images for review if you want them aren't free, like the first one. (~$75USD.)
            Last edited by Oddity; 1 Jul 2021, 8:15 AM.
            "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

            "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

            Comment


              #7
              Stating the OFL or other and relying on Tilite reverse engineering using CAD would work Ok. I think that option is for when a person wishes to transfer their old chair specs to a Tilite?
              Some mention of it is here in this good news blog
              https://permobil.co.nz/blog/month/2018-9

              You are correct, I believe that I have a clear comprehension now and it is true, I have definitely been labouring on this for long enough 😉
              Most serious matters above those of this chair have needed attention our attention.
              I know my Trig but for ease and efficiency, this calculator has helped a lot.
              https://www.calculator.net/right-tri...erv=&x=75&y=21
              Interstingly, I contacted our Permobil today. no follow up. no reply so just moved on with what I needed to do using a bit of common.
              I am comfortable with my numbers and as you stated Odd, the CAD will reveal. first is free, the subsequant ones are NZ$150 a pop.
              As far as I know, is the same rules apply here.
              Be well.

              Last edited by slow_runner; 1 Jul 2021, 9:09 AM.

              Comment


                #8
                Cool. I didn't mean to say you'd been doing it long enough, already! Rather, that you've been very thorough in covering all the bases, and I can't think of anything you haven't considered.
                "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

                "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

                Comment


                • slow_runner
                  slow_runner commented
                  Editing a comment
                  No offense Odd, nor did I read that you were inferring. The truth is, it has taken a while....since April and thinking on before then

                #9
                Are you saying you want to add and extra 2.75" to the regular length to the frame bend? If so that is going to make the chair extremely long. Or, are you making the length to the bend from the front of the seat 2.75"? You have to make that clear or it'll be a very long frame.

                I don't think TiLite offers a CAD for an adjustable ZRA or TRA. Especially since Permobile took over.

                Comment


                • slow_runner
                  slow_runner commented
                  Editing a comment
                  The ZRA trial chair had a measured OFL of 24.5". My feet sat out over the footplate and I want to have them more protected. Granted, the ZRA had a solid back that did not allow me to sit back further into the chair.
                  Last edited by slow_runner; 1 Jul 2021, 2:00 PM.

                #10
                Originally posted by Patrick Madsen View Post
                Are you saying you want to add and extra 2.75" to the regular length to the frame bend? If so that is going to make the chair extremely long. Or, are you making the length to the bend from the front of the seat 2.75"? You have to make that clear or it'll be a very long frame.

                I don't think TiLite offers a CAD for an adjustable ZRA or TRA. Especially since Permobile took over.
                (They do offer CADs for adjustable chairs. There are a few in the CAD repository here, and my most recent one was for an Aero Z, with full adjustability. There are still important measurements for the client to verify, so they changed the practice of limited CAD drawings many years ago.)
                "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

                "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

                Comment


                • slow_runner
                  slow_runner commented
                  Editing a comment
                  That is a sensible practice as it provides clarity and offers a 'protection' for both the vendor and client. There can be no arguement unless Tilite have not followed the CAD or the quality is not up to standard and I haven't heard of that.

                #11
                Yes CAD drawings are available and recommended for the TRA and the ZRA.
                Bike-on.com rep
                John@bike-on.com
                c4/5 inc funtioning c6. 28 yrs post.
                sponsored handcycle racer

                Comment


                  #12
                  Originally posted by slow_runner View Post
                  I am about to submit my script requirements for my chair.
                  The script form asks for the Custom Frame Depth.
                  Well, I do not know that dimension; I could hazard a guess but that would not give me an accurate
                  chair.
                  I am confident of the Occupied Frame Length (OFL) that I require. I am not confident that the Custom Frame Depth will result is an ideal frame configeration.
                  It would be nice if clients had access to a working computer model ....

                  My question is this; do Tilite/Permobil accept the OFL dimension (along with the front frame angle(FFA)) and re engineer to arrive at the Custom Frame Depth?
                  My preference is the OFL & FFA along with the seat depth will provide a more accurate and satisfactory result.
                  My thinking is that either the CFD & FFA or the OFL & FFA ( along with the seat depth ) are what is required but not both.
                  Can anyone confirm? Thanks
                  When you specify your wheelchair, you are specifying a right quadrilateral. There are 5 parameters of a right quadrilateral. Only 3 must be given and the other 2 can be calculated. Specifying more than 3 parameters can be conflicting.

                  For example, if you specify Seat Height, Seat Depth (which includes the Custom Frame Depth), and Front Frame Angle, then the Occupied Frame Length and Seat to Footrest can be calculated. But what if you specify Occupied Frame Length and Seat to Footrest too? You better be sure to get it right or else you may specify an impossibility. Hence, you're better off specifying only 3 that matter the most to you and let TiLite determine the rest.

                  I am sure TiLite design engineers get this. But it's not clear on the order form. In fact, the order form will lead you to specify all 5. This is an area where you need a DME in the know or else you have to take control. Otherwise, if there is a conflict, then TiLite will make a judgement call that may or may nor be to your liking.
                  Click image for larger version  Name:	Seat depth.png Views:	0 Size:	2.8 KB ID:	2910852




                  That's the theory. They may require some specs regardless. For example, if you specify Seat Height, Seat Depth, and Occupied Frame length, that determines the angle but they may still want you to specify Seat to Footrest. But at least you're in the know and can carry on a meaningful conversation if they come back with questions.

                  Last edited by August West; 1 Jul 2021, 5:50 PM.

                  Comment


                  • slow_runner
                    slow_runner commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Thanks August. That was expressed more succinctly than I 😃

                  #13
                  What the hell is this about?
                  I just noticed that on both the International and US ZR order form the ZSD3 has been reduced to 0.5"-2" but the Canadian remains at 0.5 - 3"(2.75").
                  The T series International and Canadian TSD3 remain at 0.1" - 3", the US order form is reduced to 0.5"- 2"
                  A recent change without consistency?
                  Available seat depths range all the way to 19.5", so what the heck are they playing at? I cannot see any logic in this except that orders for chairs above +2" are less ordered OR that Permobil may wish to have you hooked into an upcharge? I suspect the later.
                  So, to over come this should a person have to screw around & order a seat depth 1" deeper, or more, slip the seat sling back or fabricate a custom solid seat pan.
                  I suspect that the OT or who is scripting will cough for the upcharge.
                  I have been listening to the older experience members and what they have to say about the decline in customer consideration since Permobil swallowed TiLite appears to be a valid observation.
                  Last edited by slow_runner; 3 Jul 2021, 7:29 AM.

                  Comment


                    #14
                    Order form has wiggle room. Good idea to submit a CAD with the order form. In the CAD specify the frame depth you want.

                    Comment


                      #15
                      You're right about TiLite customer service going downhill. They weren't even being friendly. I guess we have to rely more on our reps and DMEs.

                      Comment

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