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Tuning in a trial ZRA chair

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    #16
    Originally posted by Patrick Madsen View Post
    Oh boy, hate hearing that SR. If it's not healing as expected, get the flap done and save yourself months or years of grief laying down. I think of the years wasted because I didn't want to get laid up for 6 weeks laying down 24/7 in a Clinitron. Once, it got resolved, I haven't had an issue going on 5 years now. I thought laying down for a couple hours a day then up for the rest of the day was okay; it wasn't. First thing is to get a seating eval and proper cushion, what may good for your wife, may be the opposite for you. Rohos are not necessarily the best cushion to use. For me, they were the worst in the eval.
    Stay strong; you'll get thru this.
    Thanks for your kind thoughts and words Patrick. It is not major at this point(fingers crossed), it is the bed rest that irks me and the fact that some other person is responsible. Cannot be proved but I am confident due to previous marks and scratches.

    Originally posted by pfcs49 View Post
    Yes! Injured in 95, I played on the tracks with my butt and though I was better than that. Then, after 17 years, the shit hit the fan: stage IV ischial ulcer. I got the flap surgery and spent 2 months on my back in a Clinitron. Can't imagine how I could do it but it wasn't terrible! Since then I'm a whole lot more careful. Don't want to go through it again.
    Yeah, I was a whole lot careful Phil. Trouble is that at his point I rely on others for this care and one of them does not excell or come close. The others are brilliant in what they do.
    Like everyone, "Don't want to go through it again".

    Onto the chair. I slammed my 18 x 18 cushion further back to give me an inch of clearance behind my knees - a good difference. I changed casters to 4" softs, lifted the camber tube and now have it with 3 3/4" dump. The camber tube is at its highest now with no more frame lowering adjustment unless I reverse the camber clamp arms. COG is 3 11/16".
    I am looking at a possible +1" frame and 80* front , Straight taper front to minimise contact with my lazy right leg. Maybe a higher back so I can shorten it to my liking later if required. I still feel like I need/want to sit further back into the chair.
    TiLite already make adjustable chairs for small folks to grow in- perhaps they could look further?
    This sample chair already has the floating front caster you mentioned Patrick.
    Well, I'm reasonably heavy and rolling along top heavy on a frame with so much inherent spring energy potential when stopping abruptly doesn't appeal much. And I still like to go fast whenever the opportunity arises.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao6bI21QAAc
    Plus I like the extra frame of the TRA for carrying under-sling items.
    1" diameter tube will also give me more options for clamps and such, plus I get another 1/2' of clearance between the frame tubes for that lazy leg.
    A sample TRA would be nice so I can feel the difference and trial load it into my car to see what the fuss is about. A few videos show them being stowed without much trouble; none of them into a GTI though Phil
    Last edited by slow_runner; 17 Apr 2021, 9:25 PM.

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      #17
      Listening to the arguements and discussion on the pros and cons of transferring ZRA and TRA chairs into vehicles, I decide to trial them out. Using a friends TRA and his old TR2, the trial ZRA and my 2GX I set about my real time education yesterday.
      Our car is a '95 Toyota Corona (Carina). With the drivers seat moved back on the runners and tilted well back I tried the ZRA first. The immediate difference/ obstacle I found was removing the wheels - I am used to the ease of my collapsible 2GX. Removing the solid back was easy enough but another component to stow.
      I found it a bit of a mission moving the ZRA across to the front passenger seat but doable. The chair was placed on the seat upside down with the footplate to the front. Securing it in place with the seatbelt was achieved by means of the axle assembly strut. Not ideal but better than it sitting loose.
      Next was the TRA which I found to be no more difficult to transfer than the ZRA.The extra tubing did not impede the transfer, rather they were useful for the handling.
      Next , for curiosity sake, was the TR2. What I noticed immediately was the light frame, what a difference.
      Lastly I reacquainted myself with transferring my 2GX folder. The previous time was prior to my recent fresh spinal injury back in November 2020.
      Transferring the 2GX wins hands down. However, it loses in the handling stakes
      This exercise has reinforced my preference for the TRA.
      Last edited by slow_runner; 22 Apr 2021, 11:11 AM.

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        #18
        Something I discovered transferring 8-10 different chairs into vehicles (as a T12 para) is the front end angle makes a HUGE difference. Closer to 90 is harder. Closer to 75 is easier, by a wide margin. The chair itself has a longer wheelbase with a shallower angle but can be inches shorter, caster to top frame rail, which is the dimension that matters a lot for me pulling it between my body and steering wheel. I settled on 85, since it was noticeably easier than 90 but still tucked my feet. 80deg was easiest. 75 was too long.

        "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

        "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

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          #19
          Originally posted by Oddity View Post
          Something I discovered transferring 8-10 different chairs into vehicles (as a T12 para) is the front end angle makes a HUGE difference. Closer to 90 is harder. Closer to 75 is easier, by a wide margin. The chair itself has a longer wheelbase with a shallower angle but can be inches shorter, caster to top frame rail, which is the dimension that matters a lot for me pulling it between my body and steering wheel. I settled on 85, since it was noticeably easier than 90 but still tucked my feet. 80deg was easiest. 75 was too long.
          Both of my chairs are 90* frames. Perhaps that's why, on car transfers, I put my leg (formerly legs) in first. Where the downside of a 90* frame really shows up is in my bed transfers; the leg stays in the front bay of the wheelchair and limits how far I initially get onto the bed until I go back for it and then hump further onto the bed.
          69yo male T12 complete since 1995
          NW NJ

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            #20
            QUOTE=slow_runner;n2908819]Listening to the arguements and discussion on the pros and cons of transferring ZRA and TRA chairs into vehicles, I decide to trial them out. Using a friends TRA and his old TR2, the trial ZRA and my 2GX.................. This exercise has reinforced my preference for the TRA.[/QUOTE]
            My preferred option of the TRA has been ruled out.
            quote "He does not meet the EMS Access Criteria for a non-list option, as the increased rigidity of the TRA frame is not something that can be considered under the Access Criteria he meets (get around, remain or return to home), . It is important to consider that the ZRA is a Band List ULW w/c, it is more configurable, parts readily available" and " you (my OT) have assessed that the ZRA will meet his essential mobility needs."

            The ZRA is more configurable? Increased rigidity cannot be considered under the access criteria?
            Good grief, what could be the underlying reason that the ZRA is purported(?) to be the only choice when the unit frame costs are equal?
            I await your opinion and experience. Thanks.
            Last edited by slow_runner; 26 May 2021, 6:13 PM.

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              #21
              I thought the TRA was a couple hundred dollars more expensive. That's the only reason I can think of.

              Who is that a quote from?
              "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

              "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

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                #22
                Originally posted by Oddity View Post
                I thought the TRA was a couple hundred dollars more expensive. That's the only reason I can think of. Who is that a quote from?
                Hi Odd. Pricing is direct from Permobil for the TRA and ZRA (frame only).They are both quoted at NZ$4700 retail per unit
                Last edited by slow_runner; 26 May 2021, 7:45 PM.

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                  #23
                  Ahhhhhh. New Zealand prices. They aren't the same in North America. Who is telling you this info? I have no idea how NZ DME coverage works. Never heard of "Band List ULW" before. Sorry. Seems like the only reason to deny is because cost would be different. Maybe the retail pricing is the same but the behind the scenes reimbursements are not. The TR chairs cost more to manufacture, so that would not surprise me.
                  "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

                  "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by Oddity View Post
                    Ahhhhhh. New Zealand prices. They aren't the same in North America. Who is telling you this info? I have no idea how NZ DME coverage works. Never heard of "Band List ULW" before. Sorry. Seems like the only reason to deny is because cost would be different. Maybe the retail pricing is the same but the behind the scenes reimbursements are not. The TR chairs cost more to manufacture, so that would not surprise me.
                    Band List ULW. Band is the circle of available items(?) ULW is ultra light wheelchair.
                    EMS (Equipment and Modification Service)
                    I am not sure that they operate with a conflict? Mission Statements that are at variance with what actually happens, bonuses paid etc. It is all new to me. Under legislation and the Health and Disability Strategy, the rights of the client and the clients best interest is supposed to have heavy weight. Perhaps the margin on a ZRA is more attractive to the dispenser? It is supposition, as information that could illuminate is under wraps and cannot be disclosed to the client. Interesting.
                    Last edited by slow_runner; 27 May 2021, 2:44 AM.

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                      #25
                      I'm still mucking about configuring my trial chair and have (almost) settled at 26.5OFL and 3.5" COG.
                      I am dropping my original FSH/RSH to enable me to pick items off the ground that inevitably fall off my lap.
                      I was out on the trial chair yesterday and found the 19"/16.5" was a touch too high. So I intend to drop to my 2GX spec or near enough. If I set the 5" casters at the central position I figure that it will afford some more adjustment by switching between 4" and 5" soft rolls. I don't want to go too low; reaching the upper shelves at the supermarket is difficult enough 😄

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                        #26
                        Depends on your level of injury and stability in the chair SR. For average, a higher para say T2 down to T6 or 7 usually has a 3 or 4" drop. Those with lower injuries and better balance may go for a 2-3" average drop. I'm a T6/7 and use a 4" drop for better stability. I think my FSH to RSH was 18"FSH and 14"RSH. Went that low to accommodate transferring to the drivers seat in my van. The previous chair was 19.5 and 15.5", I found it a bit high for my level.

                        Also I like my fingertip length ending around the middle of the wheel axle button for maximum efficiency pushing the chair. I like an 80o front end angle.

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by Patrick Madsen View Post
                          Depends on your level of injury and stability in the chair SR. For average, a higher para say T2 down to T6 or 7 usually has a 3 or 4" drop. Those with lower injuries and better balance may go for a 2-3" average drop. I'm a T6/7 and use a 4" drop for better stability. I think my FSH to RSH was 18"FSH and 14"RSH. Went that low to accommodate transferring to the drivers seat in my van. The previous chair was 19.5 and 15.5", I found it a bit high for my level.
                          Also I like my fingertip length ending around the middle of the wheel axle button for maximum efficiency pushing the chair. I like an 80o front end angle.
                          I'm T10 Pat. My 2GX is 19" 17" and just a notch too high for tables and reaching to the ground with any degree of comfort-if I shed a few kilos it would make a difference. So I have gone for 18.5" - 16" and that will allow some adjustment with castor size selection and camber tube height. Using an app, I calculated 10degrees with 2.5" dump. I think it is nearer 8.5degrees
                          17" + 2.75" + 4"r + 3.3" (@80degree) gives me 27.05 OFL(rough calc) If I need to knock it back I will reduce the custom frame depth by 0.5". It probably makes not much difference; better than sitting in a chair that is too short. This is assuming That I get funded for a TRA. If they insist on a ZRA the dimensions will be marginally increased I assume .........
                          Last edited by slow_runner; 1 Jul 2021, 7:09 AM.

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