Cats. I hate cats. So does my Roho.

[August West]

Like just about every company who makes a product, the Roho cushions come with limited warranties that cover workmanship and defective materials, but does not cover an item if it has been abused, misused, subject to accident or damage or due to natural disasters. I have used Roho cushions for over 25 years and have had only 3 times when I exercised the warranty process. Proper use and care are the responsibility of the user. Lecture over!

No shit Sherlock. Rather than call us a bunch of irresponsible little shits, maybe you should get out more and then you'll see it ain't so simple.

[August West]

This post started as a tongue-in-cheek comment about a flat in a Roho from a cat. Just blowing off a little steam. Nothing wrong with that. But like most other posts, there were subtopics. Perhaps the most important subtopic is how to prevent flats. Of course, you can use a Roho cover. But not everyone has one. Plus small grains of sand can easily get through a Roho cover. So, I ask my question again, what's wrong with using a pillow case (properly sized) as a cover in a pinch (when you know you're at risk of a particle getting in there)? This question is directed to KLD. Legitimate question on skin care deserves an answer.

[gjnl]

This post started as a tongue-in-cheek comment about a flat in a Roho from a cat. Just blowing off a little steam. Nothing wrong with that. But like most other posts, there were subtopics. Perhaps the most important subtopic is how to prevent flats. Of course, you can use a Roho cover. But not everyone has one. Plus small grains of sand can easily get through a Roho cover. So, I ask my question again, what's wrong with using a pillow case (properly sized) as a cover in a pinch (when you know you're at risk of a particle getting in there)? This question is directed to KLD. Legitimate question on skin care deserves an answer.

I know this is directed at KLD and you don't want to hear from me, but... I can't see anything wrong with using a pillow case in a pinch...and no not as a substitute on a regular basis. What makes you think grains of sand or other debris can't/won't penetrate a cotton, cotton/poly pillow case with the same result you mention?

"Irresponsible little shits"..your words not mine.

From Permobil FAQs http://permobilus.com/support/seating-positioning/faq/

Can I place an incontinence pad, towel, draw sheet or Hoyer lift sling over a ROHO? cushion or mattress?

Anything you place over a ROHO cushion or mattress — or any cushion or mattress — can interfere with its effectiveness. ROHO cushions and mattresses increase the contact area through immersion and envelopment when you sink into them, redistributing the weight so there are limited peak pressures. When anything is placed between you and the cushion or mattress, surface tension is increased and you will have a more difficult time effectively sinking into the cushion or mattress, or you may create a high pressure point from the pad, towel, etc.
We also realize that your individual needs, like incontinence, safety during transfers, etc., need to be considered. A licensed healthcare professional should weigh the risks of placing a pad, towel or Hoyer sling versus the risk of not employing these items.
If a pad, towel or draw sheet is required, we recommend that you use the fewest layers possible. Pads or sheets should lay very loose over the cushion or mattress, not tight.
If removing a Hoyer lift sling is going to increase shear and friction, which may be detrimental to skin, a licensed healthcare professional should weigh the risks of keeping the sling in place versus removing it.
Can I use my ROHO cushion without a cover?

It’s true that anything that you place over a ROHO cushion — or any cushion — can interfere with its effectiveness. ROHO cushions work by increasing the contact area through immersion and envelopment when you sink into the product, redistributing weight so there are limited peak pressures. Anything placed between you and the cushion, even a ROHO cover, can limit that immersion and envelopment by increasing surface tension and makes it more difficult to effectively sink into the cushion. ROHO has gone to great lengths to provide covers that allow immersion with the least amount of surface tension created. From a scientific standpoint, ROHO cushion inventor Robert Graebe would recommend a ROHO cushion, with the exception of Air/Foam combination cushions, be used without the cover.
Our covers are made so that there is little, if any, interference with pressure distribution, immersion and envelopment. When other products are used instead of ROHO provided covers, surface tension increases and the cushion may be less effective.
Bottom line: Can a ROHO cushion be used without a cover? All Air/Foam combination cushions must be used with their ROHO cover. All other cushions may be used without the supplied cover, especially if there is no risk that the cells will be caught in something.
Should the cushion be used with something other than ROHO covers?

No.

[August West]

I can't see anything wrong with using a pillow case in a pinch.

Glad we agree. It's only common sense.

"A licensed healthcare professional should weigh the risks of placing a pad, towel or Hoyer sling versus the risk of not employing these items." - Roho Company

That's what I said earlier. Far riskier to get a flat than to cover the cushion. Again, common sense.

So we're in total agreement. If only you had agreed in the first place, we wouldn't have gone through this rigmarole.

[August West]

What makes you think grains of sand or other debris can't/won't penetrate a cotton, cotton/poly pillow case with the same result you mention?

Fair question. Of course, there is no guarantee. But a tighter weave will provide more protection. It's a matter of appropriate measure. There are more aggressive measures, like an impermeable membrane (plastic, vinyl). Trade off is that it won't breathe. But then again, neither does rubber. Use common sense and judge each situation on it's own.

[slow_runner]

Beautiful cat tiger!

He certainly has a malevolent appearance. Who is the boss when he(?) is about?

[gjnl]

My definition of "in a pinch" would be an emergency, i.e., while the cushion cover is being laundered after a bowel or bladder accident in the chair or if the dog chewed the cover to shreds and you had to wait for a new cover to be delivered. But, certainly not any longer or regularly as a substitute for the real thing.

Breathable fabrics, whether knit (as the ROHO cover is) or woven like a pillow case or towel are going to allow infiltration of dust and particles. Then of course, take a look at the cushion cover. Mine has an open slot to accommodate the air flow valve and all four bottom corners are cut out to accommodate the filler valve and three alternative locations for filler valves. Taking care to protect the cushion inside the cover by regularly cleaning it, (vacuum and/or washing it) are only common sense practices. It probably has little to do with your level of activity or the behaviors in which you engage (or getting out more often). But, if you have greater exposure to activities that create a more hostile environment for the rubber cushion cells, then it is reasonable that you are more vigilant about keeping the cushion clean.

[August West]

My definition of "in a pinch" would be an emergency, i.e., while the cushion cover is being laundered... [or] you had to wait for a new cover to be delivered. But, certainly not any longer.

Roho's says to use your (licensed healthcare professional) judgement with alternate covers. Because they realize life isn't so rigid as to say use our cover and only our cover. Being as rigid and inflexible as you are being is not a good recipe for surviving SCIs. You don't seem to have an understanding about what others are up against. That's why I said you should get out more.

For example, you wrote "But, if you have greater exposure to activities that create a more hostile environment for the rubber cushion cells, then it is reasonable that you are more vigilant about keeping the cushion clean." Like what, every 5 minutes? Ridiculous.

[SCI-Nurse]

August, it is certainly your choice to take risks like this, but advising others to do so, about whom you know very little, without any scientific evidence is irresponsible at best.

Advice provided here by the SCI-Nurses and Tom from Roho is evidence-based (that is based on scientific research) and many years of experience with a wide variety of people with SCI/D. Similary, gjnl (who is actually two people with SCI/D) also provides advice based on evidence, and many more years of experience dealing with their own SCI/Ds than you.

(KLD)

[August West]

August, it is certainly your choice to take risks like this, but advising others to do so, about whom you know very little, without any scientific evidence is irresponsible at best.

Advice provided here by the SCI-Nurses and Tom from Roho is evidence-based (that is based on scientific research) and many years of experience with a wide variety of people with SCI/D. Similary, gjnl (who is actually two people with SCI/D) also provides advice based on evidence, and many more years of experience dealing with their own SCI/Ds than you.

(KLD)

It isn't irresponsible to share ideas. The final choice is up to the user.

You still haven't answered my question. What's wrong with a pillow case or a chux? Even Roho said it's ok. Of course, it doesn't let you sink in if it's too tight. But if it is not too tight, what's wrong with it? It may not provide optimal performance. But if you're in a situation that has much greater risk of getting a flat, then the risk of a flat may be far worse than the risk of a pillowcase or chux.

Should I add a legal disclaimer that this is no way a recommendation and only an idea and that you should do this at your own risk? This is getting even more ridiculous.

[gjnl]

Similary, gjnl (who is actually two people with SCI/D) also provides advice based on evidence, and many more years of experience dealing with their own SCI/Ds than you.

(KLD)

gjnl, "two people with SCI/D." Just to be clear. GJ is spinal cord injured at c6/7 complete. NL is not spinal cord injured. She is able bodied. She has been my sole caregiver for over 35 years and my wife of over 50 years. NL doesn't come here or respond very often. Although she does help me with photos and we talk through issues that come up here.

For example, you wrote "But, if you have greater exposure to activities that create a more hostile environment for the rubber cushion cells, then it is reasonable that you are more vigilant about keeping the cushion clean." Like what, every 5 minutes? Ridiculous.

Look at it this way. You and I each are able bodied. You own an SUV capable of off road activity, and you go out most weekends and enjoy climbing rock formations and bombing around in the dunes. I own the same SUV capable of off road activity, but spend most of my weekends carting kids to soccer and baseball games and hauling home loads of mulch for the garden. It stands to reason that you are going to have to be more vigilant about changing your air filter, oil and filter, putting more wear and tear on the tires, keeping the front end in alignment, and cleaning the windows and body than I have to be.

Who said anything about every five minutes? But, yes if you spend a day in the shop woodworking or a day off road in your chair, yes, it is probably the reasonable thing for you to clean between the cells of your cushion and wipe down the tires, casters, and frame when you come home.

[August West]

This is getting tired. You two remind me of religious fundamentalists here who are so consumed with the letter of the bible that they miss the intent of the bible and often end up working against its intent. You two are so consumed with following scientific based studies to the letter that you miss it's intent. Even Roho says to use your judgement on improvising. Of course, they say in more legal terms. I'm doing the same thing without the legal disclaimers. Perhaps I should consult with council before posting. That's all. Have a good day.

[gjnl]

This is getting tired. You two remind me of religious fundamentalists here who are so consumed with the letter of the bible that they miss the intent of the bible and often end up working against its intent. You two are so consumed with following scientific based studies to the letter that you miss it's intent. Even Roho says to use your judgement on improvising. Of course, they say in more legal terms. I'm doing the same thing without the legal disclaimers. Perhaps I should consult with council before posting. That's all. Have a good day.

Ya know...maybe we have all missed the point in all of this discussion. Maybe those of you who complain that Roho cushions are too fragile and don't hold up under the way you use them and the activities in which you participate should reconsider the whole issue of what kind of a cushion you are using. There are good cushions out there that don't have air cells that can be punctured, cushions you can use a variety of covers with. No one is breaking your back (pardon the expression) to use a Roho cushion. Maybe you should think more in terms of "I'll use a Roho cushion for my regular routine of daily activities, but maybe cushion xxx or zzz is better suited to me when I engage in the more active things I like to do."

Instead of complaining about the Roho cushion, maybe you need to find something that suits your needs better.

[SCI-Nurse]

counsel (if you mean an attorney or psychologist and not and advisory board).

(KLD)

[Rustyjames]

I like cats. I used to use a ROHO. I stopped using them because I do stuff that can puncture a ROHO.