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    #16
    For the same amount of money or less to pay tech, you could buy a used programmer of Ebay and do what needs to be done. Others have bought them and then rented them out with the refund going to them once it's returned and in good shape. I have one I use on my ZX-1's. I use it rarely but is handy when I want to fool around with the settings.

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      #17
      They are the worst that company literally has no care for it?s cus they won?t help you at all. And if you owe them anything they will definitely not help but if you owe that?s almost the only way to get ahold of them. Take it from me please find a different dealer they will treat and talk to you like crap

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        #18
        Problem found. Got a new F3 which allowed me to work on my C300's (disabling both during work).

        Here's what I was working with;
        2007 C300, >PERFECT programming<, bald tires, seat frame at leg lift pivot repair/weld, a few other repairs, basically well worn.
        2008 C300, got it as a back up for the times I worked on 07 chair, nice chair, horrible programming = delayed/slow steer.
        Both have R-Net joy sticks.

        I noticed 08 chair had an ESP module (small separate/additional module).
        My dongle would NOT work on 08 chair w/ESP (Enhanced Steer Program) but would work on 07 chair w/o ESP.
        Both control modules (book calls them output modules) were the same #.
        So I swapped them around, putting module I couldn't program in worn 07 chair, the one I could (w/nice programming) in 08 chair.

        Brief as possible, this isl what I learned.
        The ESP is paired with main module (both factory programmed, can not separate) and can NOT be programmed with dongle only.
        Without ESP connected and a module that is programmed for ESP, chair will not go into drive profile.
        Output module that is programmed for ESP is useless without ESP connected.
        So if you a C series w/R-Net and ESP, you'll need factory CD, computer & interface cable, and dongle to get deep into system (dongle only will not work w/ESP).
        Not sure if this applies to F series.

        Now a happy camper, my worn 07 chair now has ESP (slower steer) and is a shop chair. 08 chair with perfect program is a back up house chair.

        I have a C500 w/ESP & Pilot+ joystick. It's ESP can be programmed with a series of manual button pressing. Love it for the street.
        The R-Net w/ESP is a different bird.
        Last edited by Gearhead; 7 Dec 2019, 2:54 PM.
        Attack life, it's going to kill you anyway
        Steve Mcqueen (Mr Cool)

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          #19
          Forgot to mention, my new F3 needs a few programming tweaks.
          Joystick forward is jerky and faster than steer.
          Two techs have told me, Permobil (factory) doesn't like techs reprogramming chairs in the field.
          I requested more anterior tilt. Tech made a phone call, I listened in.
          Permobil said to send them output module & $2000 for VS (stander) leg rests to get 50 degrees anterior (they won't allow more than 20 deg w/o VS legrest).
          I'll be dongling it soon, hoping it has no ESP. I doubt it'll let me add more anterior, hoping it'll let me change steer & accel.
          Attack life, it's going to kill you anyway
          Steve Mcqueen (Mr Cool)

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            #20
            I might be wrong but I dont think NuMotion is set up like a lot of DMEs to accept cash payment.

            Shop around smaller mom and pop dmes will do it for you

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              #21
              Originally posted by RollinPositive View Post
              I might be wrong but I dont think NuMotion is set up like a lot of DMEs to accept cash payment.

              Shop around smaller mom and pop dmes will do it for you
              Colloquially what I was saying, it cost an additional $2k for 50 degrees forward tilt for a F3.
              I payed for elevate, $1500 which is required to get more anterior tilt of 20 degrees verses only 10 degrees w/o elevate.
              "More anterior tilt with elevate", as salesman said. I learned how much "more" actually is after I got the chair.
              Optimist part of me must have heard/thought/assumed I'd get the full anterior.
              Lesson learned. 50 degrees forward tilt will cost out of pocket $3500 (elevate $1500 and VS legrests $2k).
              Attack life, it's going to kill you anyway
              Steve Mcqueen (Mr Cool)

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                #22
                Numotion does indeed take cash.

                I was looking into ESP myself and found out it's standard on an F3 and can't be removed or turned off.

                My guess is they make you buy the VS leg rest package because it comes with the knee blocks that keep you from sliding out of the chair when tilted. Also, I think the foot plates have to lower or raise somehow as well.

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by beatscookin View Post
                  Numotion does indeed take cash.

                  I was looking into ESP myself and found out it's standard on an F3 and can't be removed or turned off.

                  My guess is they make you buy the VS leg rest package because it comes with the knee blocks that keep you from sliding out of the chair when tilted. Also, I think the foot plates have to lower or raise somehow as well.
                  Yes, VS leg rests are more complicated. Knee bolsters, foot plate, and they are programmed to work in sync with tilt. I read somewhere that VS leg rests can't be raised fully when doing pressure relief (fully laid back).

                  I'll be pulling cover on my F3 soon. I hope it doesn't have ESP. If it does, I'm locked out of making changes.
                  Attack life, it's going to kill you anyway
                  Steve Mcqueen (Mr Cool)

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Aaaa Haaa.
                    Hooked dongle to F3. On screen it shows ESP and it allows me to make adjustments. Tweaking fwd accel and turn speed for a few days for those tight areas in my home.
                    Conclusion; Generation 2, F3 W/ESP will allow adjustments w/dongle.
                    I feel like I'm in control now which almost eliminates dependency on DME.
                    Attack life, it's going to kill you anyway
                    Steve Mcqueen (Mr Cool)

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by Gearhead View Post
                      My back up chair is a like new Permobil C300.
                      I bought it because my main chair is really worn everywhere. I have had to do four serious repairs to it, of which two required assistance for most of a day.
                      Problem; Back up is nice except it has a delayed/slower steering speed. Frustrating navigating through a few tight spaces in my home.
                      I talked with Numotion today to jump thru hoops to get a new chair. While I had their attention, I asked if they would reprogram my back up ride and I will pay them.
                      No, was their answer. I had to >pry< out of them the reason. They will only service a chair that they sold to me.
                      That's the 2nd time I've got that reply in 7 years so apparently it's their policy. They don't offer their reason for "no" freely, must pry it out of them. This is such BS.

                      I am familiar (but not an expert) with how to set the parameters but without the unobtainable tools, my knowledge is useless.
                      What to do?
                      * I may take controller out of worn chair and put it in back up chair. They are basically identical and only 1 year difference (2007 & 2008). Maybe this will work.
                      * Option 2, use nice back up chair as a donor to refurbish my worn one. Lot of work.
                      * Option 3, find someone in Alabama that can reprogram Permobil's.
                      Whatca' think?

                      What city and state is the NuMotion your using?

                      Was taking with the service manager in Phoenix and she didnt know of a policy and said she would do it because it creates a more positive customer experience...

                      Have you talked to the GM??

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by RollinPositive View Post
                        What city and state is the NuMotion your using?

                        Was taking with the service manager in Phoenix and she didnt know of a policy and said she would do it because it creates a more positive customer experience...

                        Have you talked to the GM??
                        No, I didn't go any higher up the ladder. If I have to beg or argue to get any company to take my money, I'd rather do it myself or do without.
                        I was told "no" 3 or 4 times in reference to a used chair and they'd only do chairs they sold to original end user.
                        Forcing a company to take money for a job they obviously don't want to do would cause more problems than it's worth.
                        I wanted some changes in my new chair too. After a few request, their reluctance was obvious.
                        Research and a little DIY solved my issues.
                        Attack life, it's going to kill you anyway
                        Steve Mcqueen (Mr Cool)

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Gearhead, I understand your reluctance to go up the chain of command, and that you solved your own issues. However, I'm just gonna leave this here for anyone else interested in doing battle.

                          From Numotion's web site under "Service Technicians":
                          "We’re always here to help — even if you didn’t buy your product from Numotion."
                          https://www.numotion.com/products-se...ice-and-repair

                          I recently went all the way up to the CEO and Executive VP of Numotion to get results. Long story I may choose to tell here eventually.
                          Last edited by beatscookin; 11 Dec 2019, 10:32 PM. Reason: clarity

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                            #28
                            Originally posted by Gearhead View Post
                            No, I didn't go any higher up the ladder. If I have to beg or argue to get any company to take my money, I'd rather do it myself or do without.
                            I was told "no" 3 or 4 times in reference to a used chair and they'd only do chairs they sold to original end user.
                            Forcing a company to take money for a job they obviously don't want to do would cause more problems than it's worth.
                            I wanted some changes in my new chair too. After a few request, their reluctance was obvious.
                            Research and a little DIY solved my issues.

                            Then thats the problem...when one takes no for the answer then there is no point. Like any other company that has turn over not everyone understands and interprets polices right.

                            If you do one research NuMotion is a DME that has a lot of turn over, conflict and sometimes delivers a questionable customer experience.

                            As an advocate I cant tell you how many times I get emails or messengers from people that a ATP from NuMotion has turned them down.

                            Only to start over with using different levels of management and even Mike Swinford Numotion CEO to get things addressed and now many of those same people are rolling in new mobility.

                            Never take no for an answer.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by RollinPositive View Post
                              Then thats the problem...when one takes no for the answer then there is no point. Like any other company that has turn over not everyone understands and interprets polices right.

                              If you do one research NuMotion is a DME that has a lot of turn over, conflict and sometimes delivers a questionable customer experience.

                              As an advocate I cant tell you how many times I get emails or messengers from people that a ATP from NuMotion has turned them down.

                              Only to start over with using different levels of management and even Mike Swinford Numotion CEO to get things addressed and now many of those same people are rolling in new mobility.

                              Never take no for an answer.
                              Sometimes "no" multiple times means we don't have anyone that knows how to do anything and/or we don't care. This is a management issue with out a doubt. Managements primary goal is cost cutting. Labor being their biggest expense, that's where they focus. Rush newby/cheap labor techs through training, throw them to the wolves (real world). When things don't go well, techs are the scapegoat managers hide behind.

                              Only 3 ways to handle any obstacle; 1- work through it, 2- go around it, 3- accept it is what it is.
                              I try #1 first, if that doesn't work I try #2, and if all else fails #3.
                              In the case of my chairs, I worked around the obstacle to get what I needed.

                              My last experience where I was having to do a managers job was when I had a roof replaced on my home. Paid 1/3rd to get them started. They tried using inferior materials despite what contract stated. Talking in person and phone got me nowhere. On the third call with the roofing company manager, I went to stage 3 (the asshole stage). I asked him how much should I deduct from the end price for being the foreman and manager. Of course he pretended to not understand (a management tactic), so I told him $50 per hour of my time starting after end of call @ 8 hr min per day. His lazy/management ass was here in an hour. He made roofers replace inferior wood they installed. Job finished (almost) I called him about damage workers caused (2 exterior lights knocked off walls and damaged paint on exterior walls, also paint was rubbed off where they tried cleaning the 1 yr old paint). He came and saw damage, said they would fix. 1 week later he called, wanting balance due. I told him he would not see a dime till damage was repaired. If issue was not addressed in 1 week, I would hire someone to fix their damage, deduct cost from my bill, pay him remainder, see him in court if needed. They finished job and fixed damage but were forced to do so. My nerve pain level was up 3 points during and a week after completion.

                              The above abridged scenario, I had the advantage (leverage), I owed them money. This allowed me to force them to do what we mutually agreed on, verbally and contractually.
                              In Permobils case, they have the cash before you get a chair (end user has no leverage). I can understand why they need to do it that way. If I was in their business, I would do it that way too. I'm old school, I pay my bills, many people don't. Tis' the world we live in these days. Workers and companies have to be forced to do an average quality job. I'm not unhappy with Permobil or NuMotion now that I've learned what to expect.

                              I got my two C series sorted, still tweaking my F series. Probably best I program the F myself because it would take techs multi trips to get it like I'd like it. As a former "tuner" I can appreciate subtle improvements that most would see as insignificant.

                              Summary: I heard "no" several times but didn't accept it. Going around the "no" was probably faster and netted better results than going through it (Permobil/NuMotion).
                              It was a "choose your battles" kinda' thing. Enjoyed the learning curve and application. Also no management induced pain level increase.
                              Attack life, it's going to kill you anyway
                              Steve Mcqueen (Mr Cool)

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                                #30
                                Try National Seating & Mobility Inc. They bought out some of the people that use to be a independent dealers. Have had good luck with them so far.
                                Art

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