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Hoyer Advance 340 lift

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  • #16
    But, then again, this often results in CHAOS (Can't Have Anyone Over, Syndrome)
    That's funny

    How accessible would it be, for you, there? If it's going to be a PITA to use, then is it really worth the effort? Similarly, will any "assisted living" facility that you end up in have room to accommodate it? (or, would you rely on them providing whatever you needed?)
    Won't be a PITA for me I won't be the one bringing it in the house. lol Actually my place is well ramped, just a small lip coming through the patio door.

    Believe me, LOOKS is very low on my list. My house is all about functionality. A quad doesn't live independently for over 41 years worrying about looks. The problem is I can't think of a place inside the house where those long legs of a lift wouldn't be in the way. To be honest, except for emergencies, a lift wouldn't function in my house. Wouldn't work with my bed/toilet/bath/hallways/doorways. But I own my house so if I need to knock a wall out, I'll knock a wall out.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by automation View Post
      The problem with all battery systems (battery powered devices) is matching the actual usage with the usage patterns for which the system was designed.

      For example, battery powered tools are designed for rapid recharge -- because a "worker" doesn't want to have to wait around for a battery to charge (so, you'd like the battery to charge in the time that your "spare" takes to "run down").

      I have lots of UPSs, here. We rarely have outages so the need for the batteries is very "occasional". And, when there is an outage, it is often brief (lights flickering, etc.). Even if it is extended, I can arrange to shut down the computer promptly. So, I can tolerate batteries having "reduced capacity".

      I'd prefer the UPSs to treat the batteries very gently -- with a goal towards maximizing their useful life. But, the UPS designers want the batteries to be recharged quickly (to protect against any OTHER outages). And, they are in the business of selling batteries so the idea of making the batteries last longer just doesn't fit with their mindsets!

      If you're designing a lift, you are probably assuming it sees daily usage. So, you want the batteries to "always" appear to be fully charged. You probably DON'T plan on a lift sitting in the corner, on its charger, WAITING to be used at some future date. As a result, you design the battery pack and charger for the "regular usage" case -- at the expense of the "maximal lifespan".

      [I hate batteries -- because they "always" need replacing when you need them! (how often do you notice the batteries in your flashlight are dead when you AREN'T USING the flashlight?! ]
      All I know is I don't understand how batteries work. I don't know when to charge my cell phone. Charge it everyday or when it dies? Everyone has an opinion on it.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by HACKNSACK44 View Post
        All I know is I don't understand how batteries work. I don't know when to charge my cell phone. Charge it everyday or when it dies? Everyone has an opinion on it.
        Battery care is primarily dictated by the particular chemistry involved. E.g., "flashlight batteries" were carbon-zinc. NiCads are nickel-cadmium. NiMH are nickel-metal hydride. Etc. What a particular battery chemistry "likes" and dislikes is a function of its chemistry (and mechanical design).

        Most batteries do not like to be deeply discharged -- ~80% of their capacity used. (An exception is batteries expressly designed to TOLERATE deep discharge -- like "marine" batteries). The deep discharge alters the internal composition of the components in a way that adversely affects the battery's ability to take (and hold) a charge. Lead-acid batteries (like the sealed "gel" cels common in power/wheel-chairs) tend to consider ~30% to be a "normal" discharge (the sort that has a smaller affect on long-term reliability).

        Most battery chemistries don't like to "go flat". This can precipitate the (premature) end of a battery's life.

        [This suggests you'd want to recharge often. But, that means having lots of excess/unused capacity which translates into extra cost, weight, etc. And, why HAVE that excess capacity if you aren't going to USE it??!]

        Most battery chemistries are temperature sensitive. You would charge a battery differently at 70 degrees than at 85 degrees. Or, 95 degrees! Batteries "self-discharge" (go flat) at different rates depending on the temperature at which they are stored. (A car battery can lose ~4% of its charge in a day or two "just sitting") Note that this ignores the discharge effects of devices that never COMPLETELY power off (e.g., anything that doesn't have a mechanical power switch is draining SOME power even when OFF).

        Most batteries prefer "cool" to "hot". E.g., operating a (lead-acid/gel) battery at 85 degrees HALVES its expected lifespan at 70 degrees.

        Most batteries prefer to be charged at slower rates; "don't rush me!" E.g., gel cells prefer to be recharged at a ~10% rate (10% of their discharge/usage rate). This isn't often compatible with how quickly their users want to put them back into service.

        Most batteries don't like being OVER-charged. But a charger can take this into account (if it has been designed properly and can monitor the TRUE state of the battery -- THIS battery).

        You also have to consider the ease/cost of battery replacement and the possible (profit?) motives of the device manufacturer. There's obviously more incentive to preserve as much battery life as possible for a device where the battery is hard to replace (embedded pacemaker) than one where it can be easily replaced with an OTS part (flashlight).

        [I have a lot of UPSs because, IME, people/businesses just toss the things out when the batteries fail rather than dealing with the hassle -- and inflated costs -- or replacing the batteries. You're not likely to do that with a powerchair or a phone!]

        When deciding how to treat a battery, you have to think of the application and how "most folks" would EXPECT the battery to perform IN THAT APPLICATION. Phones tend to see lots of regular usage. So, you would expect the phone to need (based on usage) to be recharged more frequently than that "emergency flashlight" you purchased. You would HOPE the manufacturer had a similar usage concept in mind when choosing the battery (chemistry, capacity), the charging algorithm and the charger technology.

        E.g., I have a bunch of giant flashlights (the sort you can use to illuminate trees on the mountain across the valley). These aren't very expensive (compared to a telephone). And, see intermittent use. So, the chargers are pretty simplistic -- and can easily "cook" the battery if left plugged in too long (more than a day).

        By contrast, your phone has a computer in it and lots of smarts to figure out how to eke out every last bit of "usage" from your battery. It knows how much "energy" it has sucked out of the battery and, therefore, can predict when the battery will "go flat" - and shut itself off before that happens. It can use this information to control HOW the battery is recharged (if the battery has only had a little "energy" sucked from it, it can opt for a gentler charging cycle than if the battery is deeply depleted and the user is likely to want to be able to USE the phone, again, SOON!)

        But, this "smarts" comes with some additional costs. The little computer has to be periodically retrained to know the PRESENT characteristics of the battery. If you're always just "topping off" a barely depleted battery, it has no idea of the overall capacity of the battery, at this point in its life. So, there is an advantage to letting the battery MORE DEEPLY discharge before being recharged. This lets the computer "see" more of the battery's characteristics and better update its internal (mathematical) model of the battery -- to better predict running time and recharging needs.

        Of course, deep discharges have consequences -- see above. So, you need to strike a happy medium.

        I don't use a cell phone. I only carry one (with no cell service) when I am away from home. It serves as my wristwatch, camera, magnifying glass (take photo, zoom), music player, portable WiFi terminal, note pad, etc. In a pinch, I could use it to dial "911".

        I tend to use it in this manner for ~5 hours at a time. When I return home, I turn it OFF (not "standby) and toss it on a shelf until just before I am expecting to need it, again. Then, recharge it. In this way, it is always fully charged when I use it and yet never really discharges significantly between charges (cuz I'll probably use it again next week).

        OTOH, I keep an iPhone (again, no service) in the center console in one of the cars. Primarily as a camera/911 phone. It sits (OFF) in the car for a month or more at a time before I remember to check to see if it needs to be charged. (I keep a charging cable in the console so I can plug the phone in -- USB ports in the car -- while driving if I suspect I'll forget to bring it into the house to charge).

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        • #19
          Originally posted by wes4dbt View Post
          Hack, Do you use your on a regular basis?
          We only use it when on vacation. Usually every couple of months. Last time we used it was in July. We are hoping to go on vacation Thanksgiving weekend.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by HACKNSACK44 View Post
            We only use it when on vacation. Usually every couple of months. Last time we used it was in July. We are hoping to go on vacation Thanksgiving weekend.
            rarely use our molift but keep battery on charger always. use it for vacations and 1 or 2x per month to get in my recliner.
            Bike-on.com rep
            John@bike-on.com
            c4/5 inc funtioning c6. 28 yrs post.
            sponsored handcycle racer

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            • #21
              Originally posted by fuentejps View Post
              rarely use our molift but keep battery on charger always. use it for vacations and 1 or 2x per month to get in my recliner.
              And how long do the batteries usually last??

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              • #22
                Ive had it 5-6 years now. Original battery
                Bike-on.com rep
                John@bike-on.com
                c4/5 inc funtioning c6. 28 yrs post.
                sponsored handcycle racer

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by fuentejps View Post
                  Ive had it 5-6 years now. Original battery
                  I suspect you keep it at a nice "comfortable" temperature (70-75 degrees) and don't try to store it out on the porch, garage, etc.?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by fuentejps View Post
                    rarely use our molift but keep battery on charger always. use it for vacations and 1 or 2x per month to get in my recliner.
                    Can you operate the lift WHILE the battery is being charged?

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by automation View Post
                      I suspect you keep it at a nice "comfortable" temperature (70-75 degrees) and don't try to store it out on the porch, garage, etc.?
                      yep, always in the closet at current house temp
                      Originally posted by automation View Post
                      Can you operate the lift WHILE the battery is being charged?
                      no, the battery drops in to charge base
                      Bike-on.com rep
                      John@bike-on.com
                      c4/5 inc funtioning c6. 28 yrs post.
                      sponsored handcycle racer

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by fuentejps View Post
                        rarely use our molift but keep battery on charger always. use it for vacations and 1 or 2x per month to get in my recliner.
                        Do you have a case for your Molift?

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                        • #27
                          yes hard case.
                          Bike-on.com rep
                          John@bike-on.com
                          c4/5 inc funtioning c6. 28 yrs post.
                          sponsored handcycle racer

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by fuentejps View Post
                            yes hard case.
                            Looks like the hard case makes it easier to transport. I wish they made one for the Hoyer Advance.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by HACKNSACK44 View Post
                              Looks like the hard case makes it easier to transport. I wish they made one for the Hoyer Advance.
                              its solid. i only use when i ship lift to hotel we are staying at. when we drive it folds small and we just stand it up in the van.
                              Bike-on.com rep
                              John@bike-on.com
                              c4/5 inc funtioning c6. 28 yrs post.
                              sponsored handcycle racer

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by automation View Post
                                You should be able to replace the battery located inside the battery pack. I'll have to check, to be sure, but I think these are just normal gelled electrolyte batteries (in a fancy case).
                                The lift I was thinking of appears to have found a new home so I was unable to examine it (and verify it doesn't operate when connected to mains power).

                                However, I found the power pack from another lift (Invacare somethingorother) which had apparently been removed from its lift (mechanism) -- no doubt salvaged in case another such lift materialized but needed a battery. As suspected, it contains COTS batteries -- two 12V 2.9AHr AGM batteries. A quick google shows these should be available for < $25/ea.

                                This particular case came apart with 6 Torx screws. The white stuff is a bit of foam rubber that I moved out of the way to expose the batteries.

                                [If you ever have to replace these sorts of batteries (having "faston" connectors -- look like a screwdriver BLADE), be sure you note the width of the connector blade -- they come in 0.187" and 0.25", typically.]

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