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Dialing in chair fit- Frame length and angle

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  • Dialing in chair fit- Frame length and angle

    Well, looks like my Ki Rogue will be remade a third time, hopefully the charm. I'm curious about frame length and angle degree in front. I have had on the past few chairs 90 degrees, and there's not enough room for my feet to sit right, they're too far back. I'm getting an extra long frame, so I have something to grip on beyond the cushion (My ZR supposedly has 2" extra but it doesn't feel like it). Does having it be 85 degrees help with getting up into the chair from the floor without it being tippy?? I need VERY short seat to footrest length, which is super hard for companies to do. Would 85 help that? It does look better with 90, and some taper. But I only have like 9" height to play with. Does anyone have photos of their chair that might be extra long for this? I've always been able to get up in a chair from the ground until the last several chairs, and there's just not enough to hold on to, and they tip forward easily.
    My Rogue came being super short, with 1" dump and 24" wheels. I couldn't reach anything, the counters were up to my neck practically. I'm also iffy on dump. I felt like more than an inch would make more pressure, but less for sure I feel not stable and falling forward. The Supracor contour cushion made the dump more though, and it felt too much. I'm getting the XS next, not sure if that is higher in front than back, too? Which makes for even shorter length for my legs to reach footrests of course. But my Roho hybrid on 1" dump felt like I was falling forward again. Sigh. I can't believe I still can't dial in a chair! WTH.
    This is what I look like in my ZR, that I feel very much ON not IN, and falling forward. See even with Docs on, which give me more leg height, they're not high enough, and the footrests are not far enough forward.
    Attached Files

  • #2
    For the time being until you figure out what to do, why not try to reverse your footplate?

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    • #3
      The measurement you're referring to is colloquially known as "Occupied Frame Length". It's not an 'industry standard' wheelchair measurement (you won't find it on an order form), but a few prominent seating OTs have been pushing to make it so, and a few manufacturers have acknowledged it, and will/can spec around it. TiLite is one. I don't know about Ki. HoC could, no doubt. Lasher can too.

      OFL is the distance from the front of the backrest to the leading edge of the footrest. It is a critical dimension, and forms the basis of a well fit frame every bit as much as seat width and depth do.

      I'd recommend you nail down exactly what you need your OFL to be, then work adding frame length and adjusting the front angle to meet this need. This is a much better approach than working from angle and depth to try to hit a vague notion of where you want your feet to be.
      "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

      "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

      "Even what those with the greatest reputation for knowing it all claim to understand and defend are but opinions..." -Heraclitus, Fragments

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      • #4
        Interesting Oddity. So if having an aftermarket back, you would account for where that would sit, all the way to footrest. Not sure if Ki does it. This is what I got back today. *you will go from 15.5 to 17, which is an inch lower than your current Ti chair, and adding the 25" rear wheels. this is the closest we are going to get to achieve all of the goals, and the custom footplate H style.*
        And I'm already confused. It's worrisome to go off my Ti, because I'm sitting also on a seat pan board, that's pretty thick. The sling effect made me too low and added more pressure to my rear. I don't know how to even measure for this, because my back is not a clamp on, and the footrests aren't out far enough. I wish there was some sort of model chair they could adjust with you and go off that!

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        • #5
          I would say this one is too long. The seat sling is longer than the seat cushion. I am 5 ft 4in tall. My legs fall to the inside and almost look like they are on tippy toes when they sit on the footrests. Trying to open doors is tricky because it feels like I have to reach too far. I wish you could back out of this deal.
          Attached Files
          Last edited by Sugarcube; 08-29-2018, 06:02 AM. Reason: need to fix photo too big

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          • #6
            They don't have demo chairs for fitting?!?!?!!!?! That's bad. Is this normal?! I've been to 3 places for chairs over my 12 years of SCI and they each had all manner and sizes of chairs to try out during the evals. Well, now you've got one to use as a basis so I'd start there. Use it as the base and tell them exactly what you want moved where. Don't let them tell YOU.
            "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

            "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

            "Even what those with the greatest reputation for knowing it all claim to understand and defend are but opinions..." -Heraclitus, Fragments

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            • #7
              That's what I THOUGHT was happening! LOL. Interesting, I put on the 24" wheels on my Ti, that's got 5" casters and configured for a 25" wheel, and it feels good. The wheels are probably a tad low, but if I get another inch dump that would fix that. Are you supposed to be able to reach the ground from in front? It's been so long I don't remember if I used to be able to or not! I can reach to the side, but the sideguards are higher than the wheels, so it makes it a bit hard. I guess as long as I can pick stuff up it's good. But I do want 4" casters I think. Flutter less, yes?

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              • #8
                Yeah usually the cushion is an inch past the seat. On mine, the wheels moving forward more would nearly be touching the casters! That makes it super tippy I'm sure. (Forward). I think my scissor brakes are rattling a lot. I don't like them, cuz you have to reach way under. But don't like those kind either above. Does yours bulge out a lot where the Rogue badge is?? Dang, how does one keep from bumping all sorts of things and scratching that up?? So you must have shorter legs, too. Yet they managed to do footplates without risers or an H mount weld that they're talking about. (Makes it weak with a Freewheel). Is your dump an inch, or more?

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                • #9
                  Wow, so the smaller wheels feels perfect, but then I put the Supracor contour on it and the amount of dump makes my neck sit weird, like pushed forward. It feels like I'm squished in, and slumping. I'm not so sure dump is good for spina bifida users. At least with short bodies. I'm really wanting to try having the Supracor, but this one is way too slanted. Is the XS just as slanted? Anyone have the dimensions on the back thickness of it? I wonder if they can customize one a bit, like put the plush layer on the rear part only. I'm definitely not comfy in it. The Roho is much better. I took the board out and so I'm in a sling seat that's hammocked a tad, that doesn't help I'm sure. Trying so hard to figure out how to make this new chair before we talk tomorrow! Bleh!

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                  • #10
                    Getting items to demo has been an issue for me as well.

                    Looking at the top photo - and I'm certainly no expert and leave it to the people here that are - but I wonder if your cushion was just a bit smaller in height and shorter in length if that chair wouldn't be perfect? The cushion appears to be pushing on the back of your legs forcing them to 'dangle' instead of sit properly on the footrest?
                    Roses are red. Tacos are enjoyable. Don't blame immigrants, because you're unemployable.

                    T-11 Flaccid Paraplegic due to TM July 1985 @ age 12

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                    • #11
                      Stimulite makes a full line of cushions. They make flat ones as well. And thin ones. Classic and Sport are both flat. XS refers to the top layer. It's softer, and more 'therapeutic' for sensitive skin, than the normal top layer.
                      "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

                      "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

                      "Even what those with the greatest reputation for knowing it all claim to understand and defend are but opinions..." -Heraclitus, Fragments

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Although our body types are way different (I'm 6'-2 with a T6 SCI) this is an example of an extended frame depth (1.5" I think). This gives me plenty of room to grab the frame in front of my cushion. The front frame angle is 85 degrees. The closer this is to 90 degrees the more you can extend the frame depth and keep the footplate in the same place.

                        There is about 2.5" between the back of my legs and my cushion which allows me to tuck my legs further underneath about even with my knees (I prefer this to minimize the square footage of my chair, as well as keep my feet from sticking off the front of the footplate and smashing my toes into things). I agree with Lynnifer that your cushion looks too long and shouldn't be touching your legs. If you don't want to tuck your feet underneath you'll need to extend the frame depth to get your footplate further forward for a longer occupied frame length like Oddity mentioned. I would not suggest a 25" wheel due to your height, it's going to take more effort to push.

                        Like I mentioned in another thread of yours, you need to set your rear seat to floor height so that you're sitting as low as you can without having to raise your shoulders to push. This will be the most efficient setup with the least amount of effort. Most of the time that puts the tip of your fingers about at your axle if you hang your arms straight down. Once you have the rear seat to floor height set, I usually adjust the dump so that my lap is fairly flat (maybe slightly tilted toward me) so that I can carry things without them sliding around too much. For me its around 2", but my legs are really long. More dump doesn't give me more balance since I have no trunk control. Lastly, I think the angle and height of your backrest is what is making you feel like you're falling forward, but you can either lower it or tilt it back to fix that.

                        Last edited by Brad09; 08-30-2018, 11:58 AM.

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                        • #13
                          How do cushions work with ergonomic seats? Do they just bend? I'm super curious how one feels. Not sure if Ki does that, though. I LOVE the frame above, how much there is to grip. Is that an 85 degree angle front, too? My cushion actually (the roho) feels fine behind my knees, they don't tuck any more naturally, because of my range of motion. They definitely need to be higher up. My lap slants downward, so that's why I probably feel like I'm falling. If I raise the footplates up even more, the Freewheel still won't fit, cuz then my floor to footrest height is significantly higher. I guess I gotta decide whether to be shorter, or not use the wheel. I think it's going to be super hard for them to have the footplates high enough.
                          Attached Files

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                          • #14
                            Here I put some foam under the front of the cushion to simulate an inch more of dump, or maybe half inch when squished. My feet on a tug to raise them where I feel comfortable. That's really short. Like 9" My knees hit my desk, so maybe I could come down an inch all around, or get a slimmer cushion. The wheels feel perfect here.
                            Attached Files

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by heartdog View Post
                              How do cushions work with ergonomic seats? Do they just bend? I'm super curious how one feels. Not sure if Ki does that, though. I LOVE the frame above, how much there is to grip. Is that an 85 degree angle front, too? My cushion actually (the roho) feels fine behind my knees, they don't tuck any more naturally, because of my range of motion. They definitely need to be higher up. My lap slants downward, so that's why I probably feel like I'm falling. If I raise the footplates up even more, the Freewheel still won't fit, cuz then my floor to footrest height is significantly higher. I guess I gotta decide whether to be shorter, or not use the wheel. I think it's going to be super hard for them to have the footplates high enough.
                              The cushion bends with the ergo frame, I use a Ride Java cushion. I can't feel a difference with the ergo frame, but they are supposed to help keep your hips in a more neutral position. That is an 85 degree front frame angle. I'm not sure how the rear seat to floor height differs from your ZR to the Ki, but it needs to be a few inches lower so that the tip of your fingers are down around your axle. That would increase your dump and flatten out your legs on top, which would keep you from feeling like you're sliding off the front. Even if your legs can't bend back any further, its probably better on your Ki to decrease your cushion length so it doesn't rub on your legs. I don't think there is any way you're going to get a freewheel to work with the height you need your footplate at. You will probably have to set the regular footplate down low (2-3" off the ground) for the freewheel to attach, and then use a separate footplate for your feet that is spaced off the lower one. Just make sure the spacer is not coming up from the center of the footplate so there is room for the freewheel to clamp in the center.

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