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    Permobil F3/M3

    I'll be ordering a new power chair within the year and would appreciate members opinions on the Permobil F & M series chairs. I'm specifically interested in the F3 and M3 but would be interested in what users have to say about the F5 also. I'll be switching from a mid drive Quantum 6000Z and realize there'll be a transition period if I go with the front drive F3. Anything that you can tell me about the quality of the chairs or how they ride would be most helpful.

    #2
    Here is a good place to start: /forum/showthr...M300-Corpus-G3

    Many members have contributed to this thread that is about 4 or 5 months old. There are opinions about the F3 and the M300. The M3 has only been out for a few weeks, and there is little discussion anywhere on this forum about it. F3, have you had front wheel drive power chairs before. M3, have you have mid-wheel drive chairs before. Have your driven both?

    Take a look at the thread above and then ask some questions that may not have been answered there for you.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by criordan View Post
      I'll be ordering a new power chair within the year and would appreciate members opinions on the Permobil F & M series chairs. I'm specifically interested in the F3 and M3 but would be interested in what users have to say about the F5 also. I'll be switching from a mid drive Quantum 6000Z and realize there'll be a transition period if I go with the front drive F3. Anything that you can tell me about the quality of the chairs or how they ride would be most helpful.

      Its night and day difference front wheel drive vs mid wheel drive. I have said this before the industry created a demand for mid wheel and the customers followed. But there is no advantage other then marketing and industry PR.

      Front wheel is better in out door environments, front wheel can get you in and out of tight areas so much better with out those front casters getting in the way.

      Build quality in Permobil is so much better then the cheap path Pride takes in plastic parts and Chinese motors.

      Its always good to start a new tread vs reading old threads as each use is different and you may have needs others do not have.

      That thread mostly focused on the m300 which now is older technology and the ride difference is so much smoother with true independent suspension of the F series and now the m3 and m5 coming in a few months.

      Let me know if I can help in any other way...

      Comment


        #4
        I have a front and mid wheel chair and I love the mid wheel maneuverability. My mid wheel is bigger then my front wheeler but is more agile in tight spaces. I like it better indoors and out doors. With the front wheel drive I'm always hitting things with the back end because of the way it swings back and forth when turning. The one thing I prefer about the front wheel drive it does allow you to get a little closer to things, which makes transferring easier. I use it when I go for some type of medical exam and I know I'll have to transfer onto an exam table and I use it when I go to the dentist.

        Comment


          #5
          i have a F3 and and mid wheel and the mid is just gathering dust. The ride is way better and it is different to drive. Permobil has a video to show how to drive the different models.

          Comment


            #6
            Permobil F3/M3

            Originally posted by criordan View Post
            I'll be ordering a new power chair within the year and would appreciate members opinions on the Permobil F & M series chairs. I'm specifically interested in the F3 and M3 but would be interested in what users have to say about the F5 also. I'll be switching from a mid drive Quantum 6000Z and realize there'll be a transition period if I go with the front drive F3. Anything that you can tell me about the quality of the chairs or how they ride would be most helpful.
            I'm sitting in a loaned F3, corpus seating with all power options. It was brand new a month ago, has 60+ miles on it now. It's an extremely well made machine.

            This week I saw the new M3 I'm waiting for. Needs the back changed, waiting for new back. Said it will take about three weeks. I've been told M3 is a smoother ride, has better suspension. That's an issue for me due to muscle spasms induced by even small bumps.

            My impressions and the differences I know of between the F3 and M3

            1) M3 = 6.5 mph vs 5 mph on F3

            2) M3 will turn around in elevators at the hospital, F3 won't unless you can get everyone to wait outside

            3) M3 elevates to 12" at the same rate as F3, I tested side by side, took 15 seconds

            4) M3 runs 3.5 mph at 12", F3 barely moves at all

            5) M3 has no real chance of climbing curbs, I've managed 2.5" curbs without issue in F3, could not make it climb 3"

            6) Was told the M3 locks out front caster suspension at some elevation, they didn't know how high

            7) F3 electric Corpus seating is almost a standing chair, seat bottom is still angled back a bit. Great at the urinal, saves trying to get into the toilet stall.

            8) M3 won't stand even though it's the same seat, doesn't have big wheels out front so functionality is limited.

            9) M3 has anterior tilt, not certain but the F3 standing function seems to go far further, but it's also reclining and extending the foot rest so becomes uncomfortable seating position

            10) I can't use the F3 at home, it won't get in the kitchen or bathroom, bedrooms, anywhere beyond the hallway. I bludgeon my way around the house in a great Aero Z.

            11) Adjustability on Corpus seating is fantastic. Got the chair and played with arm and foot rests for a couple hours, it's perfect

            I'm a guy with 38 years designing and building robotic machinery & large automated systems. Really picky about quality but both these machines impress me far more than anything else I've seen.

            Hope that helps make your choice.

            Birdman
            Twizzle, Twazzle, Twozzle, Twome; time for this one to come home.

            Be what you is, not what you is not. Folks what they is, is the happiest lot.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Birdman View Post
              I'm sitting in a loaned F3, corpus seating with all power options. It was brand new a month ago, has 60+ miles on it now. It's an extremely well made machine.

              This week I saw the new M3 I'm waiting for. Needs the back changed, waiting for new back. Said it will take about three weeks. I've been told M3 is a smoother ride, has better suspension. That's an issue for me due to muscle spasms induced by even small bumps.

              My impressions and the differences I know of between the F3 and M3

              1) M3 = 6.5 mph vs 5 mph on F3

              2) M3 will turn around in elevators at the hospital, F3 won't unless you can get everyone to wait outside

              3) M3 elevates to 12" at the same rate as F3, I tested side by side, took 15 seconds

              4) M3 runs 3.5 mph at 12", F3 barely moves at all

              5) M3 has no real chance of climbing curbs, I've managed 2.5" curbs without issue in F3, could not make it climb 3"

              6) Was told the M3 locks out front caster suspension at some elevation, they didn't know how high

              7) F3 electric Corpus seating is almost a standing chair, seat bottom is still angled back a bit. Great at the urinal, saves trying to get into the toilet stall.

              8) M3 won't stand even though it's the same seat, doesn't have big wheels out front so functionality is limited.

              9) M3 has anterior tilt, not certain but the F3 standing function seems to go far further, but it's also reclining and extending the foot rest so becomes uncomfortable seating position

              10) I can't use the F3 at home, it won't get in the kitchen or bathroom, bedrooms, anywhere beyond the hallway. I bludgeon my way around the house in a great Aero Z.

              11) Adjustability on Corpus seating is fantastic. Got the chair and played with arm and foot rests for a couple hours, it's perfect

              I'm a guy with 38 years designing and building robotic machinery & large automated systems. Really picky about quality but both these machines impress me far more than anything else I've seen.

              Hope that helps make your choice.

              Birdman
              Wow not sure where your coming up with your information but it is very inaccurate and my guess is its because your not comfortable with the front wheel drive and dont understand how to maneuver it to maximize performance.

              Some of the information you posted incorrectly is my F3 goes 6.0 mph not 5, if one is wanting faster which the original poster in not interested in Permobil will have a high speed option but that is not normally covered in funding.

              You compare an apple to an orange in seat lifts, the F3 is older and with a 12" lift similar to the m3 but the m3 is newer and has a new actuator so its can go to 12" lift in 11-12 sec. The F3 has an older set up and will rise to 12" in 21 seconds.

              When you post information its important to explain details your leaving out.

              The m3 and m5 will roll elevated at 3.5 at 12" and 14" fully elevated for the new m5 and can do so safely because they are mid wheel so the bulk of the weight is over the drive wheels. The F3 is a front wheel drive so the bulk of its weight is forward of the drive wheels so for safely its slowed to 1.2 mph fully elevated out 2.5 mph (normal walking speed) at 6" lift.

              My experience is most people will not roll ongoing elevated but will use seat elevation as we have in the past for reaching for things, seeing above others, being able to sit at taller tables and bars, pushing buttons on a elevator, etc.

              Other information you posted is also not correct. Once you get comfortable and can judge your back end castors front wheel drive is much more effective in tight areas then a mid wheel drive because you dont have the castors in front to get in the way.

              So you can pivot in tight areas so much better. When your not comfortable with front wheel drive you turn to late and end up clipping things, people, pets, doorways etc.

              You mention about the m3 vs the f3 in elevators made me laugh because it shows you are not comfortable yet but it comes in time.

              I just came from a trip to Las Vegas and on a busy Friday and Saturday night my Wife and I went in and out of very crowded elevators with no issues what so ever.

              One just needs to understand where you place yourself to turn effectively and not have do disrupt others with in tight areas.

              We also have a much smaller Honda Element wheelchair accessible car/suv and can maneuver in and out much better then a mid wheel drive.

              Active reach by Permobil is a great feature that allows a user to tilt forward giving you the ability to decrease ones challenges in reaching.

              Its available on the F3, F5, m3 and m5

              One can determine what tilt is best for them from 10%-30% forward tilt.

              Active tilt is not a standing feature you mention but the F5 can be a standing option if you need.





              Last your number #6 "Was told the M3 locks out front caster suspension at some elevation, they didn't know how high"

              100% wrong that is Pride with the 2.0 that locks out the suspension. Both the m3 and m5 and the F3 have full suspension that is the reason they ride so smooth elevated.

              ** on a side note the m5 a little bigger and faster was released today and its the big brother of the m3

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by RollPositive View Post
                Wow not sure where your coming up with your information but it is very inaccurate and my guess is its because your not comfortable with the front wheel drive and dont understand how to maneuver it to maximize performance.
                Let's examine what I said which was "inaccurate"... because I'm seriously bored enough to play the game "mess with jerk troll"...


                Originally posted by RollPositive View Post
                Some of the information you posted incorrectly is my F3 goes 6.0 mph not 5, if one is wanting faster which the original poster in not interested in Permobil will have a high speed option but that is not normally covered in funding.
                Your F3 goes 6 mph. This one is 5. I posted nothing about your F3. So no I was not incorrect and you are being a jerk.


                Originally posted by RollPositive View Post
                You compare an apple to an orange in seat lifts, the F3 is older and with a 12" lift similar to the m3 but the m3 is newer and has a new actuator so its can go to 12" lift in 11-12 sec. The F3 has an older set up and will rise to 12" in 21 seconds.
                I do not compare an apple to an orange in seat lift. The F3 I'm in and the M3 I'm waiting for... have the exact same seat lift capability, both height and speed. I sat in the F3 next to the M3 and operated them both at the same time. The F3 ran the same height as the M3 and did it in the time I stated, timed with a stopwatch app on my phone. My weight on the F3 didn't seem to make one bit of difference in elevation rate. So no I was not incorrect and you are being a jerk.


                Originally posted by RollPositive View Post
                When you post information its important to explain details your leaving out.
                No details were left out. I stated the information as tested, as told to me and as my opinion or observation. I think the nickname "RollPositive" might be erroneous, least the positive bit.


                Originally posted by RollPositive View Post
                Other information you posted is also not correct. Once you get comfortable and can judge your back end castors front wheel drive is much more effective in tight areas then a mid wheel drive because you dont have the castors in front to get in the way.
                It's clearly stated in the documentation that the F3 has a larger turning radius. It's fact that I can't turn the chair in the elevator if anyone is standing in it. The M3 front castors are FAR behind the footrests so your claim is bogus. My statement is correct and you're being a jerk.


                Originally posted by RollPositive View Post
                You mention about the m3 vs the f3 in elevators made me laugh because it shows you are not comfortable yet but it comes in time.
                Unless you've been watching the security feed for that elevator, you have no clue. You're being a jerk.


                Originally posted by RollPositive View Post
                Active tilt is not a standing feature you mention but the F5 can be a standing option if you need.
                As personal observation I stated "7) F3 electric Corpus seating is almost a standing chair". That's a fact, as I correctly stated. And you are being a jerk, also correctly stated.


                Originally posted by RollPositive View Post
                Last your number #6 "Was told the M3 locks out front caster suspension at some elevation, they didn't know how high"

                100% wrong that is Pride with the 2.0 that locks out the suspension. Both the m3 and m5 and the F3 have full suspension that is the reason they ride so smooth elevated.
                My statement is 100% correct. The DME clearly told me that it locks out the suspension. They may be wrong. I'll find out when I get the chair. A reasonable person would not be a jerk, they would have been capable of comprhending the words I wrote.


                Now... I'll rewrite some of your jerky post to show how it would have been written by a non-jerk.

                "F3 also offers a higher speed option." That would have been written by a non-jerk instead of your mouth overflowing.

                "F3 turning radius is larger, requiring more experience with the chair to be confident around other people's feet & toes. It's great to be concerned about hospitalizing someone with crushed toes." Oh, uhm, yes... that would have been a jerk free statement.

                BTW, you don't know me, you have no idea how many decades I've got in front wheel drive.

                I made one misteak... I saw a request for insight into F3/M3 differences. I posted to help the OP, since I'm currently dealing with both of the chairs he asked about. I hope MY post helped him. A non jerk would have replied in a thoughtfull manner instead of egotistism, beligerance, arrogance and jerkdom.

                I'm starting to remember why I don't post here. My bad. Heading back to jerk free zones.
                Twizzle, Twazzle, Twozzle, Twome; time for this one to come home.

                Be what you is, not what you is not. Folks what they is, is the happiest lot.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Which is more maneuverable, M3 versus F3 really depends on the footplates one needs to be positioned without frogging. If you can tolerate narrow footplates, the M series will be more maneuverable in tight areas. If you need the wider footplates, caster interference issues will require the legrests to be elevated 20-30 degrees for normal driving. The M3 also seems a little faster than advertised--I'm tending to see ~6.3 MPH.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I have a very small kitchen and bathroom. The M3 has a great turning radius and I can get into these tight places easily.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by SCI_OTR View Post
                      Which is more maneuverable, M3 versus F3 really depends on the footplates one needs to be positioned without frogging. If you can tolerate narrow footplates, the M series will be more maneuverable in tight areas. If you need the wider footplates, caster interference issues will require the legrests to be elevated 20-30 degrees for normal driving. The M3 also seems a little faster than advertised--I'm tending to see ~6.3 MPH.
                      For me the footplate doesn't make a difference because I got a F3 with a wider footplate and due to not having front castors I can get to things more easy and the castors do not get in the way.

                      Closer to doors, sink, refrigerator, oven, bathroom etc.

                      I know for me it took 90 days to get comfortable with front wheel drive but one I did it totally out maneuvers my m300 or my Pride edge 1.0.

                      Again personal experience coming from mid wheels with 15 years experience.

                      Last mid wheels still have a tendency to get stuck in challenging places with elevation, gravel, dirt rock or wet grass or steep short inclines. Never an issue with front wheel F3/F5

                      Comment


                        #12
                        With respect to maneuverability in close quarters, I stand by my post.

                        If the wheelbase is shorter and approximately half the chair is on either side of the axis of rotation, it will turn in a tighter space. One real world example is the aisles between the wire racks in the storage room at work. I can turn an M3 around in the aisle while an F3 turned sideways exceeds the width of the aisle.

                        One has to be careful about about making generalizations. It all depends on the specific model and configuration.
                        Attached Files

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Case in point. There are significant differences the footprints of the M3 and the M5. The differences between the M3 and M5 are much greater than the differences between an F3 and F5. There are definitely trade offs that should be carefully weighed
                          Attached Files

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Birdman View Post
                            Let's examine what I said which was "inaccurate"... because I'm seriously bored enough to play the game "mess with jerk troll"...




                            Your F3 goes 6 mph. This one is 5. I posted nothing about your F3. So no I was not incorrect and you are being a jerk.




                            A non jerk would have replied in a thoughtfull manner instead of egotistism, beligerance, arrogance and jerkdom.

                            I'm starting to remember why I don't post here. My bad. Heading back to jerk free zones.

                            BIRDMAN;

                            Now I will say I do not always agree with Roll Positive, but he is a long time chair user. I see his opinions on a couple of sites. However, your chair can likely be programmed to move/ travel at 6 MPH.

                            You seem to place a lot of faith in your DME supplier. I don't know him/her. But as a general rule I think of them as sales people, not knowledgeable mechanics, but parts changers and sales people. Further sales people will say whatever suits their purpose, actual; knowledge and truth has little or nothing to do with their spoken words. Now be aware that some (damned few) of these people know of what they speak. There are a larger smattering who actually know a bit but are often blinded by their sales commissions, not the service they can provide.

                            I have no real interest in the models you have written about but in my opinion you have been very rude to Roll Positive. HE gave you his opinion and perhaps some actual experience with one of the models. Fact; SPEED of most chairs can be set with a controller programmer. The motors are simple DC permanent magnet motors the amount of volts permitted by the controller regulates to get to the motor. The amperage actually creates the drive power developed by them. If you had an electronic controller that "Could" allow more than 24 volts to access these motors they could gain far more RPM's. They are just DC motors (variable speed according to voltage) I do hope I haven't bored you or confused you.

                            Calling a person a jerk is rude. You had a difference of "OPINION" with him and he with you. Most of us are pretty definite in our opinions. Especially when it comes to our chairs, since we spend most in not all of the waking moments of our lives in one. In my home I use a now ancient Invacare X without any front riggings, to make my home more accessible. There well be another kind of chair which would be better for my use. However, MOST dealerships, and their vultures make reasonable shopping for me impossible. I supply my own financing, NOT Government or private Insurance financing. SO I do not have the resources to be an expert, and from my limited experience the sales force of the Manufacturers are not honest (In MY Opinion) Nor are most "SALESPEOPLE" their prime interest is sales and money. Not their false sympathies.

                            Roll Positive can often come across as stern, but when he had an opposing opinion, and experience, you could not accept that. Give it a rest! Few if any of us are absolute experts on all sorts of Powered wheelchairs. Just read and learn what others opinions are.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Bob Sullivan View Post
                              BIRDMAN;

                              Now I will say I do not always agree with Roll Positive, but he is a long time chair user. I see his opinions on a couple of sites. However, your chair can likely be programmed to move/ travel at 6 MPH.

                              You seem to place a lot of faith in your DME supplier. I don't know him/her. But as a general rule I think of them as sales people, not knowledgeable mechanics, but parts changers and sales people. Further sales people will say whatever suits their purpose, actual; knowledge and truth has little or nothing to do with their spoken words. Now be aware that some (damned few) of these people know of what they speak. There are a larger smattering who actually know a bit but are often blinded by their sales commissions, not the service they can provide.

                              I have no real interest in the models you have written about but in my opinion you have been very rude to Roll Positive. HE gave you his opinion and perhaps some actual experience with one of the models. Fact; SPEED of most chairs can be set with a controller programmer. The motors are simple DC permanent magnet motors the amount of volts permitted by the controller regulates to get to the motor. The amperage actually creates the drive power developed by them. If you had an electronic controller that "Could" allow more than 24 volts to access these motors they could gain far more RPM's. They are just DC motors (variable speed according to voltage) I do hope I haven't bored you or confused you.

                              Calling a person a jerk is rude. You had a difference of "OPINION" with him and he with you. Most of us are pretty definite in our opinions. Especially when it comes to our chairs, since we spend most in not all of the waking moments of our lives in one. In my home I use a now ancient Invacare X without any front riggings, to make my home more accessible. There well be another kind of chair which would be better for my use. However, MOST dealerships, and their vultures make reasonable shopping for me impossible. I supply my own financing, NOT Government or private Insurance financing. SO I do not have the resources to be an expert, and from my limited experience the sales force of the Manufacturers are not honest (In MY Opinion) Nor are most "SALESPEOPLE" their prime interest is sales and money. Not their false sympathies.

                              Roll Positive can often come across as stern, but when he had an opposing opinion, and experience, you could not accept that. Give it a rest! Few if any of us are absolute experts on all sorts of Powered wheelchairs. Just read and learn what others opinions are.


                              Thank you Bob for the kind words....not trying to come off as anything other then just an experienced user...many times we talk to people that get bad advice from manufactures, DME ATM or just other users that really dont understand what there chair can do or is capable of doing.


                              When you read Birdmans 1st post you can tell being a user of an F series that his issues are from not understanding how front wheel drive works to his advantage or the chair is not programmed for his skill set and or maximum performance.

                              The fact that the chair comes standard at 6mph tells me he as a temporary user didnt understand the DME should have reprogrammed it to 6 and then the user can slow it down at the joystick to match his talent.

                              If mid wheel is a preference then by all means go for it!

                              Having come from 5 years in an Pride Edge and 2 years in a m300 the F3 will out preform in every measurement from maneuverability in tight areas, not get stuck in short steep inclines, not get stuck in wet grass, mud or deep gravel.

                              Comment

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