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    Originally posted by gjnl View Post
    [IMG]/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png[/IMG] Originally Posted by gjnl [IMG]/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]
    The Permobil c300 is an older model of the Permobil mid wheel power chair. The model that replaced it was an m300. This is the chair I demoed and I felt had a superior ride to my 7 year old TDX-SP. Sometime, probably about mid 2017, the Permobil m300 will be replaced with the m3, also a mid wheel power chair.

    I took the m300 over 3 inch curbs, rumble strips (for the blind) at curb cuts, gutter grates, into and out of my van, on cobbles and pavers, and I did not experience the jarring and teeth rattling bumpiness that I have with my TDX-SP.

    All the best,
    GJ
    I have an Invacare TDX-SP and I am trying to go with a Permobil F3. It's helpful to hear about someone else making the change. Glad you like the M300 so far. I hope you will keep reporting in. When I demo'd the F3 I found it very smooth too.

    Comment


      Originally posted by grommet View Post
      I have an Invacare TDX-SP and I am trying to go with a Permobil F3. It's helpful to hear about someone else making the change. Glad you like the M300 so far. I hope you will keep reporting in. When I demo'd the F3 I found it very smooth too.
      I didn't have time to write about the delivery of the chair yesterday.

      The sales rep and a wheelchair technician brought the chair to my home. I sat in the chair while the sales rep checked measurements comparing them to my old chair. The chair had to go back to the shop to tweak some things, so I haven't taken delivery and am not using it just yet. Likely, I will get it the middle of next week.

      I'll have to have to get used to is the flat seat. My TDX-SP has some built in dump to it (higher at the front of the seat pan than the back of the seat pan). I can achieve something similar by playing with the tilt, albeit it will raise my knees a bit, but I think I'll work that through once everything has been tweaked.

      More later.

      All the best,
      GJ

      Comment


        Originally posted by gjnl View Post
        I didn't have time to write about the delivery of the chair yesterday.

        The sales rep and a wheelchair technician brought the chair to my home. I sat in the chair while the sales rep checked measurements comparing them to my old chair. The chair had to go back to the shop to tweak some things, so I haven't taken delivery and am not using it just yet. Likely, I will get it the middle of next week.

        I'll have to have to get used to is the flat seat. My TDX-SP has some built in dump to it (higher at the front of the seat pan than the back of the seat pan). I can achieve something similar by playing with the tilt, albeit it will raise my knees a bit, but I think I'll work that through once everything has been tweaked.

        More later.GJ
        This is great, hearing the step-by-step. I haven't had a new chair since 2007 so it's been a while since I went through the delivery. That's neat that you are using your old chair's measurements because that is what I am telling them to do with mine. I am very comfortable in my TDX-SP and I want to copy it as close as possible. The demo didn't fit me, oh that hurt. Everyone has a different body and I actually need a seat back fabric/foam that is firmer not deep and soft like the demo. Well, I won't know if I will get it until this application process is all over but I am going step by step and knowing what you are doing is good for reminding me what to pay attention to. Hope you get your final delivery next week.

        Comment


          Originally posted by grommet View Post
          This is great, hearing the step-by-step. I haven't had a new chair since 2007 so it's been a while since I went through the delivery. That's neat that you are using your old chair's measurements because that is what I am telling them to do with mine. I am very comfortable in my TDX-SP and I want to copy it as close as possible. The demo didn't fit me, oh that hurt. Everyone has a different body and I actually need a seat back fabric/foam that is firmer not deep and soft like the demo. Well, I won't know if I will get it until this application process is all over but I am going step by step and knowing what you are doing is good for reminding me what to pay attention to. Hope you get your final delivery next week.
          No the demo chairs didn't fit me either. I couldn't have spent any more time in them than the 45 minutes I did. I can tell you that even without the tweaking needs to be done, I was much more comfortable in the chair that was ordered to my measurements. The optimum seat pan to floor height I can achieve in the m300 is 17-1/2 inches to accommodate the group 24 batteries which are taller than group 22 batteries which would allow for a 16-1/2 inch seat to floor height. Group 22 batteries don't seem to have good reviews when used with the m300 and I would suppose the same would go for the f3.

          All the best,
          GJ

          Comment


            Originally posted by gjnl View Post
            No the demo chairs didn't fit me either. I couldn't have spent any more time in them than the 45 minutes I did. I can tell you that even without the tweaking needs to be done, I was much more comfortable in the chair that was ordered to my measurements. The optimum seat pan to floor height I can achieve in the m300 is 17-1/2 inches to accommodate the group 24 batteries which are taller than group 22 batteries which would allow for a 16-1/2 inch seat to floor height. Group 22 batteries don't seem to have good reviews when used with the m300 and I would suppose the same would go for the f3.

            GJ
            Thank you for telling me that. I feel so much better knowing it's not only me who doesn't fit the demo. It took me a long time to figure out what worked for me, I spent years in pain with the wrong configuration. My Quickie hurt every day for 7 years. My Invacare is really comfortable. I will do everything I can to make my next chair fit the same.

            Regarding 22NF batteries, I have never heard anything good about them except that they are lighter and so good for use in a smaller chair but not the big ones like a Permobil or TDX-SP. I have always had Group 24, I don't know much about the next group up, 30 somethings. I would always want to fit the largest I can but you made some really good points about how the chair is affected because of the battery size. I hadn't thought of that.

            I am guessing that by now you have your chair or are pretty close. I don't know if I will get approved, it would be great but I am at the start of the process, waiting to see and sign off on the application. I'll see what 2017 will bring. It's a silly thought that I keep having over the years, being so rich that I could just get whatever chair I need as easy as making a call to the dealer. That would be pretty neat :-)

            Merry Christmas.

            Comment


              Originally posted by grommet View Post
              Thank you for telling me that. I feel so much better knowing it's not only me who doesn't fit the demo. It took me a long time to figure out what worked for me, I spent years in pain with the wrong configuration. My Quickie hurt every day for 7 years. My Invacare is really comfortable. I will do everything I can to make my next chair fit the same.

              Regarding 22NF batteries, I have never heard anything good about them except that they are lighter and so good for use in a smaller chair but not the big ones like a Permobil or TDX-SP. I have always had Group 24, I don't know much about the next group up, 30 somethings. I would always want to fit the largest I can but you made some really good points about how the chair is affected because of the battery size. I hadn't thought of that.

              I am guessing that by now you have your chair or are pretty close. I don't know if I will get approved, it would be great but I am at the start of the process, waiting to see and sign off on the application. I'll see what 2017 will bring. It's a silly thought that I keep having over the years, being so rich that I could just get whatever chair I need as easy as making a call to the dealer. That would be pretty neat :-)

              Merry Christmas.
              For me there isn't even a question that I would get the Group 24 batteries for this chair. I can live with the trade of of 1 inch in height. That said, my DME supplier was under a mistaken impression that 16 -1/2 inch seat to floor height could be achieved using Group 24 batteries. While at my home, he had an argument with a Permobil tech about the issue, and admitted he was mistaken. Since the Group 34 batteries are shorter than the Group 24 batteries, I am exploring whether or not I could swap the 34s for the 24s. I know the f3 chairs use the Group 34 batteries, especially when anterior tilt is on board.

              Here is an interesting chart and brief discussion of batteries most commonly used in wheelchairs:
              Attached Files

              Comment


                Originally posted by gjnl View Post
                For me there isn't even a question that I would get the Group 24 batteries for this chair. I can live with the trade of of 1 inch in height. That said, my DME supplier was under a mistaken impression that 16 -1/2 inch seat to floor height could be achieved using Group 24 batteries. While at my home, he had an argument with a Permobil tech about the issue, and admitted he was mistaken. Since the Group 34 batteries are shorter than the Group 24 batteries, I am exploring whether or not I could swap the 34s for the 24s. I know the f3 chairs use the Group 34 batteries, especially when anterior tilt is on board.

                Here is an interesting chart and brief discussion of batteries most commonly used in wheelchairs:
                I am getting a m300 also. The seat to floor height is 17.5'' 18.25'' 19'' with either group 34 or 24. So get the 24 last much longer. My C300 with the group 34 batteries well go dead before the 12 hours if I stay up that long. My Invacare with group 24 will still be going strong. And the permobile chair has more 4 functions were my Invacare only has tilt. Which will even take more power. As far as dump in your chair you have tilt or recline to do that. I love that on my c300 cause you can adjust it. I hate my Invacare because the back is not power. On my m300 I need the 19 inch seat to floor height for my long legs and wanted the seat elevator also. Well with the seat elevator it only comes 17.5''. I said that can be fixed easy....he said no I said yes. He contacted the permobile rep and the rep said it can be done its just not on the order form. On my c300 when I got it it was set for 17.5''. Well under the seat were the tube is there is a clamp. Loosening the clamp then take a screw out you can raise the seat to floor height there. 17.5'' 18.25'' 19'' and there was one more height there to even higher than 19'' but did not go there. Note this is without the seat elevator. My DME guy told me about that trick. The permobile is so adjustable you could spend days moving things around. The m300 the seat without elevator works the same as the c300. My C300 has everything but the elevator which I really need since my bed to floor height is 30'' and even in my van with my roho cushion I have to go up higher on the transfer also. After 42 years my shoulder don't like that. And if am having a bad day the transfer is hard and have lost my balance a few times and broke a tooth once hitting the steering wheel. The Permobil you can recline much more than the Invacare also. The only thing I do not like on the Permobil is the arm pads. They are sharp and when you bend over sideways they hurt your ribs unless you use some sort of pad. The Invacare has the tear drop sides with padding so it does not bother me. Permobil needs to make a tear drop on there arm rest. BTW the F3 comes with 34 or 24 by there info. Group 22 nf is not a good battery for a power chair unless you don't use it much.
                Art

                Comment


                  Originally posted by gjnl View Post
                  For me there isn't even a question that I would get the Group 24 batteries for this chair. I can live with the trade of of 1 inch in height. That said, my DME supplier was under a mistaken impression that 16 -1/2 inch seat to floor height could be achieved using Group 24 batteries. While at my home, he had an argument with a Permobil tech about the issue, and admitted he was mistaken. Since the Group 34 batteries are shorter than the Group 24 batteries, I am exploring whether or not I could swap the 34s for the 24s. I know the f3 chairs use the Group 34 batteries, especially when anterior tilt is on board.

                  Here is an interesting chart and brief discussion of batteries most commonly used in wheelchairs:
                  Thanks for the info on batteries. There is so much to know. Until recently when I started the process of getting the Permobil, I thought I knew a lot. Realizing how much more there is to know. It's like you have to take a course in wheelchairs, tech design and DME's, to know how to do it right.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Art454 View Post
                    I am getting a m300 also. The seat to floor height is 17.5'' 18.25'' 19'' with either group 34 or 24. So get the 24 last much longer. My C300 with the group 34 batteries well go dead before the 12 hours if I stay up that long. My Invacare with group 24 will still be going strong. And the permobile chair has more 4 functions were my Invacare only has tilt. Which will even take more power. As far as dump in your chair you have tilt or recline to do that. I love that on my c300 cause you can adjust it. I hate my Invacare because the back is not power. On my m300 I need the 19 inch seat to floor height for my long legs and wanted the seat elevator also. Well with the seat elevator it only comes 17.5''. I said that can be fixed easy....he said no I said yes. He contacted the permobile rep and the rep said it can be done its just not on the order form. On my c300 when I got it it was set for 17.5''. Well under the seat were the tube is there is a clamp. Loosening the clamp then take a screw out you can raise the seat to floor height there. 17.5'' 18.25'' 19'' and there was one more height there to even higher than 19'' but did not go there. Note this is without the seat elevator. My DME guy told me about that trick. The permobile is so adjustable you could spend days moving things around. The m300 the seat without elevator works the same as the c300. My C300 has everything but the elevator which I really need since my bed to floor height is 30'' and even in my van with my roho cushion I have to go up higher on the transfer also. After 42 years my shoulder don't like that. And if am having a bad day the transfer is hard and have lost my balance a few times and broke a tooth once hitting the steering wheel. The Permobil you can recline much more than the Invacare also. The only thing I do not like on the Permobil is the arm pads. They are sharp and when you bend over sideways they hurt your ribs unless you use some sort of pad. The Invacare has the tear drop sides with padding so it does not bother me. Permobil needs to make a tear drop on there arm rest. BTW the F3 comes with 34 or 24 by there info. Group 22 nf is not a good battery for a power chair unless you don't use it much.
                    My chair has been delivered and is being tweaked at the durable medical supply dealer. It has the group 24 batteries. The dealer talked with tech support at Permobil last week when the chair was delivered to my house. He was told a 16-1/2 inch seat to floor height could be achieved without the seat elevation feature on board using group 24 batteries. It is the elevating feature that adds one inch.

                    I will likely stick with the group 24 batteries. I am a tall guy too, 6 foot 3 inches, with long legs, but the 17-1/2 inch seat to floor height works well for me. It may have something to do with where you like the position of your feet, i.e., at a 90 degree angle or if you don't mind having them kicked out in front of you a bit. And, my footrests are very close to the ground, closer than most folks like them. Any higher seat to floor height and I just can't manage to get under tables at restaurants, at many friends houses, or at libraries.

                    My TDX-SP had "tear drop" or "waterfall" armrests. My complaint about them is they peeled, cracked, and/or split within 6-8 months of being new. I was always replacing them. I hope the Permobil armrests last longer.

                    All the best,
                    GJ

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by gjnl View Post
                      My chair has been delivered and is being tweaked at the durable medical supply dealer. It has the group 24 batteries. The dealer talked with tech support at Permobil last week when the chair was delivered to my house. He was told a 16-1/2 inch seat to floor height could be achieved without the seat elevation feature on board using group 24 batteries. It is the elevating feature that adds one inch.

                      I will likely stick with the group 24 batteries. I am a tall guy too, 6 foot 3 inches, with long legs, but the 17-1/2 inch seat to floor height works well for me. It may have something to do with where you like the position of your feet, i.e., at a 90 degree angle or if you don't mind having them kicked out in front of you a bit. And, my footrests are very close to the ground, closer than most folks like them. Any higher seat to floor height and I just can't manage to get under tables at restaurants, at many friends houses, or at libraries.

                      My TDX-SP had "tear drop" or "waterfall" armrests. My complaint about them is they peeled, cracked, and/or split within 6-8 months of being new. I was always replacing them. I hope the Permobil armrests last longer.
                      GJ
                      That is so cool that your chair was delivered and it's only a little while before you get it home.

                      Regarding the armrests, I had waterfall armrests for years and they are softer when leaning, the padded plastic frames ones I have now do dig into my ribs when I am reaching. The waterfall's that came with my TDX started breaking down in two weeks. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I never had them wear out like that. I like waterfall but I don't remember how much support they gave me when I leaned. I remember some flexing and maybe that they were a little slippery, my elbow coming off when I braced, but it's been so long I can't be sure.

                      This thread has given me so much good stuff to think about.

                      Comment


                        The C300 is a front wheel drive. I have tremendous elbow pain in my C 300 that I do not have when I in my power assisted extender system on my quickie chair. Especially when working on a computer. When using the joystick on the power chair one is locked into a static position puts a lot of pressure on the elbow and when at a desk working on a computer the armrests get in the way of comfortable keyboard/trackball use. I've tried everything. One can try the Roho accessory pad for the power chair armrests. Simply notch out the rear section on the inside so it doesn't catch between the chair and the armrest and use additional double back Velcro patches to secure place. The Roho accessory pad wraps from the inside to the outside giving pretty decent padding. One can also try T foam under a sheepskin armrest pads. The best ones, and only ones I can find that are somewhat serviceable are made by a company in New Zealand. They are thick and plush. They are not cheap and do need to be cared for properly as it is high-quality sheepskin. One may need to modify the Velcro attachment straps underneath. I had a local shoemaker do it.

                        My DME rep doesn't take too well to clients that do their homework, question certain features and want to be sure you're getting the correct product and features. I was not even told about certain features and given the option to self-pay. I doubt mine is going to go the extra yard and try to get certain features covered.

                        What I can't figure out is this. It takes a long time to even get a wheelchair clinic appointment at my local provider, sometimes months. The clinic appointments are only held on a certain day. As far as I am aware, only one DME provider and rep from that provider does the fittings. Whenever I go to the clinic for PT, it is never really busy. Therefore, I think the long delays in getting a clinic appointment is because they just don't want to have more clinic days by allowing another DME provider and/or additional reps from that DME provider. It seems that the clinic has given sole rights of exclusivity to this one DME provider and this one rep. This clinic does have a decent reputation, but from my experience it is satisfactory, provided you take whatever they determined "you need". It is not easy to find decent clinics and once you decide to go elsewhere it is my impression that they will have determined you no longer deemed them to be qualified should you need to come back to them with your tail between your legs could be in for a rougher experience.

                        Here is the website for the skin armrest pads.

                        https://www.kiwisheepskins.com/sheep...overs-skuMD009

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by gjnl View Post
                          My chair has been delivered and is being tweaked at the durable medical supply dealer. It has the group 24 batteries. The dealer talked with tech support at Permobil last week when the chair was delivered to my house. He was told a 16-1/2 inch seat to floor height could be achieved without the seat elevation feature on board using group 24 batteries. It is the elevating feature that adds one inch.

                          I will likely stick with the group 24 batteries. I am a tall guy too, 6 foot 3 inches, with long legs, but the 17-1/2 inch seat to floor height works well for me. It may have something to do with where you like the position of your feet, i.e., at a 90 degree angle or if you don't mind having them kicked out in front of you a bit. And, my footrests are very close to the ground, closer than most folks like them. Any higher seat to floor height and I just can't manage to get under tables at restaurants, at many friends houses, or at libraries.

                          My TDX-SP had "tear drop" or "waterfall" armrests. My complaint about them is they peeled, cracked, and/or split within 6-8 months of being new. I was always replacing them. I hope the Permobil armrests last longer.

                          All the best,
                          GJ
                          They make two different ones. The plastic ones on the sides and the pad does spilt. They make a foam rubber type and they last years.
                          Art

                          Comment


                            On the M300, 17.5 is the lowest STF. Going higher is possible as a custom option, but the top speed of the chair may be limited.

                            The F3/F5 is also 17.5". Battery size has no effect on the STF or power seating.

                            With the F3/F5, I recommend 17.5" for nearly every chair I spec (85% of which will be for men). Selecting the higher STF values may result in circumstances where the chair may drive at a reduced speed event though there is no clear safety risk. If this happens, it may not be correctable in the field. If I need a taller STF on the F series, I'll select 17.5" and program myself to 18.5. If it is set at 17.5, it is possible to drive without any speed reduction with the seat elevated 1-2".

                            You just need to be aware of footplate clearance.

                            It is also possible to use waterfall style arm pads by selecting the 7/8" Arm Trough Adapters and specifying that they be mounted using the "inside hole of the bracket". This chair on the left has them and uses Quickie waterfall style arm pads to reduce the overall width by 3" or so.
                            Attached Files

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by crags View Post
                              The C300 is a front wheel drive. I have tremendous elbow pain in my C 300 that I do not have when I in my power assisted extender system on my quickie chair. Especially when working on a computer. When using the joystick on the power chair one is locked into a static position puts a lot of pressure on the elbow and when at a desk working on a computer the armrests get in the way of comfortable keyboard/trackball use. I've tried everything. One can try the Roho accessory pad for the power chair armrests. Simply notch out the rear section on the inside so it doesn't catch between the chair and the armrest and use additional double back Velcro patches to secure place. The Roho accessory pad wraps from the inside to the outside giving pretty decent padding. One can also try T foam under a sheepskin armrest pads. The best ones, and only ones I can find that are somewhat serviceable are made by a company in New Zealand. They are thick and plush. They are not cheap and do need to be cared for properly as it is high-quality sheepskin. One may need to modify the Velcro attachment straps underneath. I had a local shoemaker do it.

                              My DME rep doesn't take too well to clients that do their homework, question certain features and want to be sure you're getting the correct product and features. I was not even told about certain features and given the option to self-pay. I doubt mine is going to go the extra yard and try to get certain features covered.

                              What I can't figure out is this. It takes a long time to even get a wheelchair clinic appointment at my local provider, sometimes months. The clinic appointments are only held on a certain day. As far as I am aware, only one DME provider and rep from that provider does the fittings. Whenever I go to the clinic for PT, it is never really busy. Therefore, I think the long delays in getting a clinic appointment is because they just don't want to have more clinic days by allowing another DME provider and/or additional reps from that DME provider. It seems that the clinic has given sole rights of exclusivity to this one DME provider and this one rep. This clinic does have a decent reputation, but from my experience it is satisfactory, provided you take whatever they determined "you need". It is not easy to find decent clinics and once you decide to go elsewhere it is my impression that they will have determined you no longer deemed them to be qualified should you need to come back to them with your tail between your legs could be in for a rougher experience.

                              Here is the website for the skin armrest pads.

                              https://www.kiwisheepskins.com/sheep...overs-skuMD009
                              Thanks for the info.
                              Art

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by SCI_OTR View Post
                                On the M300, 17.5 is the lowest STF. Going higher is possible as a custom option, but the top speed of the chair may be limited.

                                The F3/F5 is also 17.5". Battery size has no effect on the STF or power seating.

                                With the F3/F5, I recommend 17.5" for nearly every chair I spec (85% of which will be for men). Selecting the higher STF values may result in circumstances where the chair may drive at a reduced speed event though there is no clear safety risk. If this happens, it may not be correctable in the field. If I need a taller STF on the F series, I'll select 17.5" and program myself to 18.5. If it is set at 17.5, it is possible to drive without any speed reduction with the seat elevated 1-2".

                                You just need to be aware of footplate clearance.

                                It is also possible to use waterfall style arm pads by selecting the 7/8" Arm Trough Adapters and specifying that they be mounted using the "inside hole of the bracket". This chair on the left has them and uses Quickie waterfall style arm pads to reduce the overall width by 3" or so.
                                They look like they don't fit to well. How do they hold up?
                                Art

                                Comment

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