Permobil M300 Corpus G3

[gjnl]

I received this from Permobil/Roho regional representative today by email.

The CAT (Climbing and Traction) Link system is the M300’s suspension system that links the drive wheels with the caster swing arms. When the casters encounter an obstacle either going forward or backward the swing-arms connect to the drive wheel directing force to keep it on the ground and improve traction. Many mid-wheel drive chairs are susceptible to something called “high centering”. High centering is when the drive wheel loses traction usually when transitioning from one obstacle to another (example down one ramp and up another causing casters to get suspended and drive wheel to just spin). The CAT Link system is designed to keep traction on the drive wheel and reduce the risk of high centering. You should be able to feel how the system works during your test ride. The CAT Link system will work well with either a pneumatic or solid drive tire. The solid tire is specifically designed for Permobil power bases to optimize performance of the chairs and comfort of the ride. We do not use a foam or gel filled tire rather the specially designed sold tires and casters. As for caster size the 6” will provide a slightly smaller turning radius and allow the footplates to be kept in closer to the base, but the 8” will climb larger obstacles and handle greater terrain.

All the best,
GJ

[SCIfor55+yrs.]

Eight inch casters will raise the height of the chair 1 inch higher than six inch casters, unless the caster wheels can be mounted higher in the caster forks.

All the best,
GJ

I think they use different forks but I will check that out. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

[SCIfor55+yrs.]

It appears to have a limit regarding ramp slope but this has never happened to me.

[CowboyCrip]

Is it just me or would that F5 look better configured as a rear wheel?

[crags]

It's no secret that front wheel climbs better over obstacles than mid-wheel. Rearwheel are becoming obsolete.

I have front wheel and tried the mid-wheel in my Honda Odyssey and noticed very little difference in entering and exit maneuverability.

I have the C 300 presently and I don't think it has any suspension, hence the right can be rough. I see the F3 has spring-loaded independent suspension and would be looking forward to that.

If you get the F series, drive from your wheelchair using EZ lock and have trouble with the lockdown bolt catching on things such as thresholds, you may need to switch to the qstraint system, namely the 150. My dealer says that that resolved issues for some of their clients.

[landrover]

I recently received the F3 after 22 years of using an Invacare Arrow. Needless to say the adjustment from rear- to front-wheel drive took some time, but the front-wheel is so much more maneuverable. I am 6'4", so have been used to needing a lot of space to turn around. The F3 allows me to turn around in such tighter spaces. And I've been very impressed with the suspension.

[SCIfor55+yrs.]

Eight inch casters will raise the height of the chair 1 inch higher than six inch casters, unless the caster wheels can be mounted higher in the caster forks.

All the best,
GJ

I checked with the rep and they do used different forks. The groumd clearance is the same as the wc with 8" tires.

[RollinPositive]

Turning radius is meaningless. If you take 3 chairs, all the same overall length and compare them

Lets say each one is 50 inches from end to end.
The front, rear, mid drive can all turn around in a corridor that is 51 inches wide...

The mid drive one will have 25 inch turning radius.
The rear drive, and front drive in extreme cases, can have the drive wheel right at the rear or the front. But they are now measured at about 45 inches turning radius. Even though they can turn in the same place.
So what does it tell us? Nothing useful!

It quite possible to have a mid drive chair that's 60 inches long that cannot turn in that corridor. And its got a shorter turning radius than the two that can...


Front drive will be great at turning into a doorway because the longest part where it swings around is behind you where there's no obstruction is irrelevant. Likewise a rear drive is worse here, since all of the chair is in front of the drive wheels making it harder to turn into a doorway. You need to go almost past it, then turn...

So what matters is good design. Central footplate, short chair. Anti tips or rear casters narrow. And wheels wherever you want them.

And the central footplate has no "corners" to hit door frames as you turn. That makes it great in vans or indoors.

[gjnl]

I spent a few hours today with the durable medical equipment supplier trying various chair manufacturers and configurations. I like the Permobil m300 for my needs. I was amazed at the difference between the ride of my 7 year old Invacare TDX-SP compared to the Permobil m300 (both mid-wheel drive). Even slightly irregular surfaces, like concrete aggregate were a better ride in the m300 vs the TDX-SP. There were a variety of surfaces in the parking lot and the surrounding streets that rode incredibly differently between the two chairs.

Getting into my van was no problem, in fact, first time up the ramp (I didn't use the van kneel system), it seemed easier to maneuver the m300 vs the TDX-SP into the passenger side, over the EZ lock tie down.

The m300 had a Roho Agility Deep Contour Back system on it. Then the supplier swapped that back for the Roho Agility Mid Contour Back. Mid contour is the way to go for me. At my level (c6/7 complete), I don't need all the lateral support of the Deep Contour. In fact it limited my range and movement in the chair.

Finding a way to hook my current back pack on the chair or going to some other kind of back pack is going to be a challenge. On the TDX-SP, I use quick release buckles on the "towel bar" support between the canes. I don't have to be able to get into the back pack. NL is usually with me and can get what I need. I'd rather hook a pack to the chair than have her carry it.

I've specified the joy stick bracket that articulates to the outside and inside of the arm rest. Likely, I will have to pay an up charge for the bracket, but I know of a number of situations where this feature will be helpful. The control buttons for power recline, tilt, and foot rests will be replaced with toggle switches to compensate for my inability to push buttons. The control button module will be mounted in back of the joy stick and move out of the way inside/outside (right or left) to allow for closer access to tables, desk, under sink.

I've looked around for pro/con lists and comparisons of front, mid, and rear wheel power bases. This one from Northwest Regional Spinal Cord Injury System (http://sci.washington.edu/info/forum...kills_2011.asp) is a pretty good summary. In the end each of us needs to select the power base that suits most of our needs the best. Hope you find what works for you.

Power Bases
Different power bases handle a little bit differently, and one may work better for you than others.

Mid-wheel drive (the large drive wheel is located in the middle of the base, under the seat)

• Tightest turning radius, excellent maneuverability; good for indoor use and tight spaces.
• Requires auxiliary wheels (two casters in front, two in back) to limit tipping.
• Handles obstacles smoothly with front caster suspension.
• Hill management is good, but traction decreases with steeper inclines, so it’s better to take slopes at an angle.

Rear-wheel drive

• Handles the most like a car, with the largest turning radius and least maneuverability of all power base types.
• Highest outdoor speed and power.
• Rough but powerful obstacle handling.
• Anti-tippers needed with steep inclines.

Front-wheel drive

• Good maneuverability, smallest front turning radius.
• Back end fish tails at high speeds, difficult to learn backing up.
• Stable uphill/downhill without anti-tippers, but loses traction with steep incline.
• Smooth obstacle handling, but there is a possibility of getting stuck on the middle portion of the frame (high centering) when going over some obstacles. For example, certain bumps or curbs could potentially create this problem.

This You Tube video produced by Permobil Australia gives a good synopsis of each power platform and power seating options:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNTfbJ-L02c

All the best,
GJ

[Brent K]

That's great to hear, GL.

[RollinPositive]

I spent a few hours today with the durable medical equipment supplier trying various chair manufacturers and configurations. I like the Permobil m300 for my needs. I was amazed at the difference between the ride of my 7 year old Invacare TDX-SP compared to the Permobil m300 (both mid-wheel drive). Even slightly irregular surfaces, like concrete aggregate were a better ride in the m300 vs the TDX-SP. There were a variety of surfaces in the parking lot and the surrounding streets that rode incredibly differently between the two chairs.

Getting into my van was no problem, in fact, first time up the ramp (I didn't use the van kneel system), it seemed easier to maneuver the m300 vs the TDX-SP into the passenger side, over the EZ lock tie down.

The m300 had a Roho Agility Deep Contour Back system on it. Then the supplier swapped that back for the Roho Agility Mid Contour Back. Mid contour is the way to go for me. At my level (c6/7 complete), I don't need all the lateral support of the Deep Contour. In fact it limited my range and movement in the chair.

Finding a way to hook my current back pack on the chair or going to some other kind of back pack is going to be a challenge. On the TDX-SP, I use quick release buckles on the "towel bar" support between the canes. I don't have to be able to get into the back pack. NL is usually with me and can get what I need. I'd rather hook a pack to the chair than have her carry it.

I've specified the joy stick bracket that articulates to the outside and inside of the arm rest. Likely, I will have to pay an up charge for the bracket, but I know of a number of situations where this feature will be helpful. The control buttons for power recline, tilt, and foot rests will be replaced with toggle switches to compensate for my inability to push buttons. The control button module will be mounted in back of the joy stick and move out of the way inside/outside (right or left) to allow for closer access to tables, desk, under sink.

I've looked around for pro/con lists and comparisons of front, mid, and rear wheel power bases. This one from Northwest Regional Spinal Cord Injury System (http://sci.washington.edu/info/forum...kills_2011.asp) is a pretty good summary. In the end each of us needs to select the power base that suits most of our needs the best. Hope you find what works for you.

Power Bases
Different power bases handle a little bit differently, and one may work better for you than others.

Mid-wheel drive (the large drive wheel is located in the middle of the base, under the seat)

• Tightest turning radius, excellent maneuverability; good for indoor use and tight spaces.
• Requires auxiliary wheels (two casters in front, two in back) to limit tipping.
• Handles obstacles smoothly with front caster suspension.
• Hill management is good, but traction decreases with steeper inclines, so it?s better to take slopes at an angle.

Rear-wheel drive

• Handles the most like a car, with the largest turning radius and least maneuverability of all power base types.
• Highest outdoor speed and power.
• Rough but powerful obstacle handling.
• Anti-tippers needed with steep inclines.

Front-wheel drive

• Good maneuverability, smallest front turning radius.
• Back end fish tails at high speeds, difficult to learn backing up.
• Stable uphill/downhill without anti-tippers, but loses traction with steep incline.
• Smooth obstacle handling, but there is a possibility of getting stuck on the middle portion of the frame (high centering) when going over some obstacles. For example, certain bumps or curbs could potentially create this problem.

This You Tube video produced by Permobil Australia gives a good synopsis of each power platform and power seating options:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNTfbJ-L02c

All the best,
GJ

I have to tell you what you posted on front wheel drive vs mid wheel drive is totally wrong.

1st the front wheel drive is going to give the tightest turning because you dont have front casters.

Permobil has gyros on their F series front wheel drives which controls that rear castor wobble or fish tailing.

Mid wheel can get stuck easy due to a loss in traction on dirt, gravel, mud, snow or steep inclines.

Front wheel drive doesn't do that because your weight is over the drive tires for maximum traction.

I tell people it will take 90 days to get comfortable going from rear wheel or mid wheel to a front wheel but once you get comfortable you will never go back!

Also please take a demo home use it in your real world environment. So many times end users will roll around a show room that is smooth and flat, in and out of there van and then buy or fund a $20,000 to $45,0000 chair get it home and it doesn't work.
If your someone that miles are important take a chair for a long roll 5 miles one way and 5 miles back see how your charge is.

If your someone that uses public transportation demo on a bus, light rail, train, or cab.

If you drive from your chair spend a weekend doing that in your demo.

If your a student try it at school.

Always try a 2nd model so you can compare. Technology is amazing a new chair will aways run better then a 4, 5, 6 year old chair but compare one model to another apple to apple.

Last drum roll please....





The last 2 years Permobil has invested a ton of money on the F series chairs in advertising so they have been vey tight lipped on this but I am going to leak it.

There is a new version m300 that I would say 99% of DME's will not know and not tell you because they want to sell current inventory. Its hoping to launch 1st of the year or 1st quarter.

It should be a major improvement on handling just like its big brother F3 F5!!

[landrover]

I can second the adjustment period when going from rear- to front-wheel drive. I couldn't wait for my F3 to arrive. When it did, I spent the first weeks absolutely questioning my decision. I felt like I had never operated a wheelchair before. But now I love it, and could never imagine returning to rear-wheel drive.

[SCIfor55+yrs.]

The last 2 years Permobil has invested a ton of money on the F series chairs in advertising so they have been vey tight lipped on this but I am going to leak it.

There is a new version m300 that I would say 99% of DME's will not know and not tell you because they want to sell current inventory. Its hoping to launch 1st of the year or 1st quarter.

It should be a major improvement on handling just like its big brother F3 F5!!

How certain are you that this is correct? I know they announced a new joystick module and have a black tire option, but that is as far as it goes. http://permobilus.com/pjsm.php

[crags]

I would recommend driving in a demo chair since it does not have a lockdown and even a minor collision will have absolutely catastrophic consequences. What I did with my demo chair is I got in to the driving area on level ground to see visibility, reach, etc.. I then did take a chance and drive around my block which is completely quiet (still no excuse) at about 5 miles an hour. Even under that circumstance I felt unsafe and thought of the severe consequences and criticisms should even something totally unusual happened in my 1/16 of a mile trip.

Most important thing is field of vision, reach, etc.. What on earth do people do with joysticks on the left-hand side? The joystick with it the dashboard if left forward and it can't be swung out to the left because I'm right against the drivers door. I have retractable mount on the right-hand side and when swung out to the right there is empty space between me and the passenger seat.

I was curious about which back to get. Of the three aftermarket backs possible on the F3, I did not think Roho was one of them. The options as listed on the Permobil website are J3, Invacare matrix elite and varilite icon. Roho is not listed. The Invacare matrix elite appears to be an excellent back many options and configurations, including a variety of depths. I would double check with your rep about this point and if a change needs to be made I would go with the matrix elite. I'm sure it will give you everything you need. The Invacare website has a PDF file with all of the information and options for this back. I agree that too much wraparound lateral support prevents even the most mundane activities such as reaching to the side for something. The necessary aftermarket rail system which Permobil now offers is advertised as fitting only these three backs. We want to make sure the roho fits the rail system. I would call Permobil to double check on this.

I too am a C6/C7 is wondering whether to get the mid-or deep contour back. The Invacare matrix elite offers lower wraparound lateral support, midline higher support crucial when tilting and reclining, and most important cutaway areas behind each shoulder joint allowing freedom of movement.

[gjnl]

Roho is owned by Permobil. The Roho/Permobil regional representative brought a m300 with a Roho Agility Deep Contour back mounted on the chair for me to try at the durable medical equipment supplier's location. She also brought out a mid contour and the supplier swapped them out for me to try both. Mid contour is the best for me. I "demoed" the chair with Roho backs and my Roho cushion.

Permobil offers a retractable mount for the joystick that swings to the left of the armrest and to the right of the armrest (all in the same mount - articulates right and left).

All the best,
GJ