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    #16
    Originally posted by nia adha View Post
    Can this be sold under $800?
    Well, in honesty, I would have to say it depends. It could, yes, however, most people are going to want to get the cost of materials back, and to be paid for their labor. Cost of materials will differ, depending on a lot of variables, used or new, etc. And some people think there labor is worth more than other people do.

    So, my design 'could' sell for under $800. I doubt seriously 'I' would make one for sale, at any price, simply because I am just interested in making one for me, and one for my son. I have two, free, three-wheel ATVs donors, a new gas engine will run right around $100, and probably from around $25 to $100 for pieces that have to bought, i.e., tubing, welding wire, seat, etc. I will say that if I decided to sell one, or both of these at a later date, they will not be priced anywhere $800. The first one will take longer, so labor time would be more than the the second one. In truth, I really do not know if I will be wanting to make more than the two or not. I do know that if I were to make one for someone else, I would charge a lot less if they came up with the donor vehicle than if I had to round one up.

    At this point in time, all of this is in my head, I do not know if I will ever make plans (more like 'how I did it') or not. If I do it is a pretty simple design. I have been thinking of sketching some up tho, and if it gets to that point it would be pretty simple to do one. At that point, if I really wanted one, I would find a small welding shop and talk to them about making one for you. They would probably be much more enthusiastic about doing it if you searched out the major parts. I would think they would charge a very reasonable price for something like this. If you let them know you would be good with them doing work on it between other jobs, rather than one shot, they would be more flexible on price. I'd take some pictures of what my donor materials are, except my phone stopped sending photos to my computer, and my camera software is on the computer that died, so can't get pictures from it either. Bah.

    Comment


      #17
      I really should get back here oftener than I do. Still no place to work. If I do decide to go with foam filled tires, it will be on down the line. I don't plan to use one of these off-road as such, but in auto salvage yards, where there are always sharp pieces lying around, so chances of a puncture are higher than in most places; I will go with no foam for awhile and see how that goes. Ride comfort either way should be no major issue, because the ground in them is all dirt, and pretty level and relatively smooth; speed will be reasonably slow also.

      I'm going with a three-wheeler, single wheel in the rear, partly because it should prove simpler to build, and also because I have two three-wheel ATVs for parts. I'm going for gas power, mostly because the plan is to use this only outside, it will be simple enough to put together, and I have never understood electrical stuff since I was in high school - and I graduated in 1958, you do the math. Chain drive to the axle on the two front wheels. I will not be going with a scooter type engine, I'll either opt for a new 4-cycle engine from a place like Harbor Freight, or a Briggs & Stratton. There will be no electric drive for this concept.

      I have been doing some thinking on later converting the engine to run on propane. I know they run propane powered forklifts indoors, so am wondering if a propane version would be allowed indoors, for things like craft shows, boat shows, and the like. With a ultra-quiet scooter muffler, they may not even notice the difference.

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by Bob Sullivan View Post
        I'm here in NC in Hampstead, I am working on an off road electric really an all purpose Powered Chair. I do prefer a rear wheeled chair with pneumatic tires for comfort. If you use tubeless tires (4 ply) and tubeless wheels, you have to work real hard to puncture them. Then you can have the advantage of the traction of the soft low pressure tire, as well as the softer ride. Just saying! Foam filled of course are pretty much flat proof of course, but do have disadvantages. There are flat preventing products made that will allow you to use pneumatic tubeless tires that are more than 99% effective for the uses we want to put them to.

        It does seem you have set your mind on a scooter type vehicle, and that is OK, I just have little information to provide you for this kind of vehicle. I do know that all you require is a very small scooter type engine for your propulsion. And some sort of direct drive or trans-axle. The power requirements for a <10 Mph scooter are minimal.

        I want to make a beach/woods powered Wheelchair that I can still navigate in restaurants, stores, and in my home. A low center of gravity is one of the keys to such a chair. The Overall Width will still be close to 24" and length as minimal as possible (for turning in restricted spaces) with the seating as far back as possible to get as much weight off the front tires as possible, without making it "TOO" tippy. This is a problem with all wheeled vehicles. The front caster tires will also be a wider variety for better flotation on soft going. The current intention is to use a LiFePO4 battery system, much the same as is used by the Burgerman on WheelChairDriver. He has perfected a power system using this kind of battery that actually works, but hardly inexpensive, by your standards. But far less expensive than ANY factory made all purpose Powered WheelChair, both in the short run as well as the long run. He built his to operate on 48 VDC increasing his speed to 15 Mph. I need only a 6-8 Mph chair so the standard 24 volt controller is quite sufficient.

        By the way, if you use his system of battery power in a 3 or 4 wheel scooter, you can make a 10+ year life span battery. This will give you at least double the range that can be expected from a Lead Acid battery, with half the overall weight, and much more amp hour availability. Take a look at Battery University Site on your browser as well as WheelChairDriver pages. Good luck with your endeavors, and adventures.
        I plan on starting to do the exact same thing this spring as you are planning on doing. Same battery setup (if possible) even.

        My biggest hold up is I don't know where to find the battery..lol

        Plan on building my own frame, robbing controls and some gear driven motors off a donor chair. 29" wide at max with hopefully 8" wide tires on rear and whatever I can fit up front. Rear wheel drive, and hopefully around 6" minimum ground clearance.

        It is to be an all purpose chair, something I can hunt out of, goto farm auctions, yet still take into a store if needed and not full of mud or manure from cattle chores...lol
        T8/9 (2-24-06)
        IOWA

        Comment


          #19
          Try this for a web site http://www.headway-headquarters.com/ This is the USA Distributor for these batteries. You can try eBay as well. Charging this set up is tricky the first time if you make it from individual cells. "i" would not use a Battery Maintenance System (BMS) Lots of information From John Williamson, and a few others on the this site; http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/viewforum.php Some of the info is daunting if you are not an electronics freak. But if you stick it out and succeed the results will be more than simply worthwhile. There is just so much more energy available from a LiFePO4 than a Lead/Acid (Pb) battery.

          Do NOT confuse a LiFePO4 battery with a Lipo battery. Lipo's are reputed to burn up under many conditions. None of us need a battery burning up under our BUTT, that becomes more than uncomfortable quickly. And charging a Lipo beside your bed could easily kill and burn your house down. However, LiFePO4 battery's used as a power supplier for a powered Wheelchair will not burn under almost any condition, and it does not exude hydrogen gasses when it is being charged as a Pb battery may do, especially when it is in the last phases of its life span. LiFePO4 batteries have, (if you use it and maintain it properly) an expected life span of 5000 recharges until its ability to maintain at least an 80% storage capacity! 10 years or so, so that is at least to me pretty impressive. And they like to be stored at less than 100% charge. They do not self discharge if you disconnect them from your chair. The chair "may" be the source of small power drain, even if they are turned off.

          There are a lot of do's and don'ts but most are things both LiFePO4 and Pb batteries have in common. But the day to day use will extend your range as well as your full charge time. If you read the WheelChairDriver site especially the Main site not just the forum board you will be inundated with John's "how to" opinions and instructions. They are worth your time to read and make up your own mind what you want to make for an Off Road Powered Wheelchair. AND maybe just how to do it.

          The Headway site was being constructed when I last visited it. I just flashed it to copy its address and there "looks" to be more stuff on there now.

          Comment


            #20
            I have a dumb question why are there not gas power I am moving to beach looking at track chairs but I am scared to death of running out of power plus be limited to several miles

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by vjls View Post
              I have a dumb question why are there not gas power I am moving to beach looking at track chairs but I am scared to death of running out of power plus be limited to several miles
              Wondered about that myself. They are out here but you have to look, and they are not inexpensive. I consider the best ones are homemade, altho there is at least one conversion kit out there. Check here and you will likely find one you like. A number would be very simple to make, especially the little power puller.
              https://www.google.com/search?q=homemade+gas-power+wheelchair&biw=1093&bih=442&source=lnms&tbm= isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwii3oSss8TKAhVBLSYKHXwxBrsQ_AU IBygC#imgrc=_

              Looked up, a couple are homemade gas-powered, the third is commercial and electric, but plenty easy to make a gas version. I'd make one with large tires just for the beach ang such.
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4HRH1ccsPE
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQDOIOfe3Qc
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-x7qOlNh_Q
              Last edited by theoldsarge; 25 Jan 2016, 9:11 PM.

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by Jim View Post
                Maybe use this for some ideas.

                http://www.gennymobility.com/
                Thanks for sharing that site http://www.gennymobility.com/. Interesting resource.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Been thinking about cheap, easy, simple. Rototiller came to mind. Rototiller Wheelchair Puller google search came up with this almost immediately. This outside, chair inside.
                  https://www.farmshow.com/a_article.php?aid=11193
                  And
                  http://www.amsvans.com/blog/wheelcha...uit-lifestyle/
                  http://www.collegehumor.com/post/6794198/old-lady-in-wheel-chair-towed-behind-motorcylce
                  http://makezine.com/2006/04/10/wheelchair-cant-keep-coup/
                  https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...9553486&type=1
                  Last edited by theoldsarge; 28 Jan 2016, 9:09 PM. Reason: add

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by Bob Sullivan View Post
                    Try this for a web site http://www.headway-headquarters.com/ This is the USA Distributor for these batteries. You can try eBay as well. Charging this set up is tricky the first time if you make it from individual cells. "i" would not use a Battery Maintenance System (BMS) Lots of information From John Williamson, and a few others on the this site; http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/viewforum.php Some of the info is daunting if you are not an electronics freak. But if you stick it out and succeed the results will be more than simply worthwhile. There is just so much more energy available from a LiFePO4 than a Lead/Acid (Pb) battery.

                    Do NOT confuse a LiFePO4 battery with a Lipo battery. Lipo's are reputed to burn up under many conditions. None of us need a battery burning up under our BUTT, that becomes more than uncomfortable quickly. And charging a Lipo beside your bed could easily kill and burn your house down. However, LiFePO4 battery's used as a power supplier for a powered Wheelchair will not burn under almost any condition, and it does not exude hydrogen gasses when it is being charged as a Pb battery may do, especially when it is in the last phases of its life span. LiFePO4 batteries have, (if you use it and maintain it properly) an expected life span of 5000 recharges until its ability to maintain at least an 80% storage capacity! 10 years or so, so that is at least to me pretty impressive. And they like to be stored at less than 100% charge. They do not self discharge if you disconnect them from your chair. The chair "may" be the source of small power drain, even if they are turned off.

                    There are a lot of do's and don'ts but most are things both LiFePO4 and Pb batteries have in common. But the day to day use will extend your range as well as your full charge time. If you read the WheelChairDriver site especially the Main site not just the forum board you will be inundated with John's "how to" opinions and instructions. They are worth your time to read and make up your own mind what you want to make for an Off Road Powered Wheelchair. AND maybe just how to do it.

                    The Headway site was being constructed when I last visited it. I just flashed it to copy its address and there "looks" to be more stuff on there now.
                    So, basically all I would need to do is order 1-2 of these kits and it would get me where I need to be? They're priced about the same as 1 gel battery... I can assemble, that's no problem..lol

                    http://www.headway-headquarters.com/...epo4-diy-kits/
                    T8/9 (2-24-06)
                    IOWA

                    Comment


                      #25
                      No, what you really need to do is go to WheelChairDriver.com web site and read up on his battery schemes. LiFePO4 battery systems are a bit complicated. If I tried to transmit all the information you can find there I would be hogging this forum. The costs of these systems are approximately double the common Lead Acid bricks, if you are a heavy user of your chair, you may want to enlarge you AH capacity @ 24vdc. However, your actual travel distance will increase due to the difference way the chemistry works between the two types of batteries. It is far better if you yourself read and try to understand the differences yourself.

                      The life span of these batteries 10+ years, to 80% capacity, if charge maintained properly is more than (3) three times the life span of lead acid (standard sealed deep celled batteries) And at least double the distance of travel for the same AH capacity deep cell battery. These are the kind of batteries used in electric automobiles, not the Lipo's that were used in Boeing's air planes. Huge difference, entirely different chemistry.

                      His pages on "his BM3" build have a distinct page for LiFePO4 batteries and what "you" should do, to accomplish this. As you read this stuff, please realize he has actually built these chairs, he also battles with his British Health System and the rest of the British assured living income for disabled Citizens. He has established his expertise and ability to his Government Board's acceptance of his ability to serve himself better and cheaper than any standard manufacturer can supply him his mobility equipment.

                      That system pays "him" to build his own chairs and maintain his own way of life. He is totally paralyzed below his waist and does all this, in his bedroom and contracted work. What everyone needs to realize is he shares his and knowledge he, and many other folks will discuss his work, but his chair suits "him" and may not be an appropriate system for everyone, and "He" will not build one for others, he just freely lays down his plan for others to follow if the wish.

                      If you are shy at discussing your project in a public forum he will assist using the site Private message system. But everyone benefits from open discussion, I have learned an awful lot, for an old man, learning new tricks.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        I've been there and made posts. It's very overwhelming, and didn't quite get the vibe that people wanted to help a newbie. Just to read a 50 page thread and figure it out yourself, which is fine and dandy. But reading back over info from 3-4 years ago is kinda pointless when a lot of that info is basically obsolete..

                        I will try and dive back into that site and see what I can come up with.
                        T8/9 (2-24-06)
                        IOWA

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by vjls View Post
                          I have a dumb question why are there not gas power I am moving to beach looking at track chairs but I am scared to death of running out of power plus be limited to several miles
                          Have you looked at the polaris Ace?

                          Comment


                            #28
                            R Sleck,

                            Read his project descriptions well, before the FORUM section. Actually on a given original forum question, much of the original information is not really outdated, but still very relevant. Often if you read his WheelchairDriver.com pages, the things you might ask are already answered.

                            the site can be sometimes overwhelming, but there are some very intelligent folks who will take their time to discuss your concerns, often they just need time to see your questions and answer. When something is not clear to "you" say so, someone will likely explain looking at it differently.

                            You can also PM John, or any of the obviously more intelligent or helpful people. Be patient.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              i just saw this post, a wealth of currentinfo concerning batteries and bms ,plus tips on only buy batteries from well kown providers, the amount of counterfeits batteries is increasing.
                              the sire is Endless-sphere.com , they have power chair and wheelchair mods .
                              the lithium battery prices are going down and newer more powerful and lighter battery packs are available, the e-assist world is benefiting from the electric car manufacturing.
                              i am attempting to place an e-assit on my recumbent bicycle, i have cauda equina and still walk, yet my pain increase if i try to go up any hills, and i live in a land of hills.
                              gas will not work out if you plan on taking any public transport, the batteries are now capable of getting you home and some new batteries recharge in short periods of time, one guy planned a multi day,multi state trip by stopping at restaurant and recharging while he ate. The main thingis to buy from known reputable dealors, the low price on some batteries is temping, but it usually never works out well. Alos be aware og the shipping prices , it can be $100 to usa in haz mat shipping
                              Youtube has videos of some counterfeit batteries where the 18650 cells weighed the same as the real ones were the same exact size with a exact same lable=opened it up it was filled with flour and a .60mah battery was inside and soldered to the terminals, so it would take a charge. There is also a big problem in china with the counterfeiting of food, fresh eggs ,rice, lettuce,are counterfeited
                              http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...Rec8BoW3BQ53oA
                              cauda equina

                              Comment


                                #30
                                What truly amazes me is the amount of effort that is put into making a fake item. When this amount of pure effort would take, the making of the pure product, would make it well worth while.

                                I will restate this again; All LITHIUM BATTERIES are not equal in performance or safety. The most used are Lipo batteries commonly used as a gel pack but also available in a cylindrical or rectangular shaped cells, these have excellent discharge and recharge rates (demand). However, they can be extremely dangerous when their operating parameters are exceeded even slightly. Sometimes even when currently used within those operating parameters, but were in the past used beyond those parameters. Hoverboards are an example of these exceeded parameters.

                                LiFePO4 cells are not prone to catching or burning, they are quite hard to get them to burn, But, using them beyond their operating parameters will simply destroy their longevity in your unit. Safety wise they are safer than the current lead/acid batteries we currently use.

                                I would like to debate the cost figures though. They do not seem to be getting cheaper. (3) Years ago 381405 cells were priced at $19 each today they exceed $24 each from a US operated business. (it takes 4 to make 12 vdc nominal @12 AH double of course to make 24 vdc to power a powered wheelchair of sufficient power requirements, it does take a sufficient number to make a minimum of 60 Amp hours at 24 volts, so 5 X 12 AH or 40 cells)

                                If a person is not able or willing to learn how to use these cells, and learn how to recharge, with a more complex charger system, and even fabricate their own pack, or have a trusty friend assist you, then they are probably better off sticking with MK Lead/acid batteries.

                                It is my opinion
                                and that of quite a few folks that the current (BMS) Battery Management Systems are more detrimental in power wheelchairs that not using them, but using a more complex charging units, that assure complete recharging to each of the individual parallel units, that make up your battery system. I would name the "current" BMS as Battery Murdering Systems, but I am quite sure that one day a better BMS will be invented that will do the intended job much better.

                                Hobbyists, model Plane makers/flyers have used these charger and battery systems for many years, since before the turn of the century. The whole subject of Batteries and battery systems is fascinating. Most current electric automobiles use LiFePO4 batteries rather than Lipo batteries.

                                This has been a gradual change from Lipo's, these Lipo's are smaller for an equal amount of power, and lighter, they do require cooling and constant attention. The Lipo's cannot be shipped by plane (in any large amounts) after April 1, 2016 according to (UN) international rules.

                                I do think the current UN have included LiFePO4 batteries, simply because they are "Lithium Based" and the rule does not discriminate between types of Lithium batteries.

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