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Need advice on ordering Tilite TR3 and COG

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    Need advice on ordering Tilite TR3 and COG

    I am ordering my 2nd Tilite TR3 in 2 years. Made a few measuring mistakes on the first one and am hoping to avoid as many as possible this time.
    I've listed specs of both my current chair and proposed chair below.
    Question RE: Center of Gravity:

    The current chair has 60 degree front and the proposed one has 70 degrees. My calculations are that the new chair will be about 3" shorter. Additionally, I'm adding 1 inch of frame depth. (I believe I ordered my current chair too short and have compensated by loosening the back upholstery to allow my back to go about 2 inches beyond the backrest post. Right now I have 4.25" of COG. I'm wondering if there is a way to calculate if there will be a change in the COG measurement. I don't know if it matters but I'm 6'2" 150lbs. Appreciate any input you may have.

    Togs

    |
    | Here's my current chair
    | TRFS1 TiLite TR SERIES 3
    |
    |
    | TRSW1 18" SEAT WIDTH
    | TRFSW1 NO SEAT TAPER - V-FRONT
    | TRSD1 18" SEAT DEPTH
    | TRFSH1 19.5" FRONT SEAT HEIGHT
    | TRRSH1 18.5" REAR SEAT HEIGHT
    | TRFA1 60 DEGREE FRONT ANGLE
    | 17.5" SEAT TO FOOTREST
    | TRFTR2 TI OPEN LOOP FOOTREST
    | TRFE2 14" V-FRONT TAPER
    | TRSB1 FOLDING ALUMINUM BACKREST NCO
    | TRSB4 TITANIUM BACKREST RELEASE BAR
    | TRSB6 INTEGRATED PUSH HANDLES NCO
    | ALUM 13.5"-16.5" FOLDING ADJ-HT BACK
    | 16" SEAT BACK HEIGHT
    | TRSB12 4" DEEP BACKREST RIGIDIZER BAR
    | TRSBA2 FOLDING BACK ANGLE
    | 92 DEGREE SEAT BACK ANGLE
    | TRCOG1 4.25" CENTER OF GRAVITY
    | TRRWS1 .75" REAR WHEEL SPACING
    | TRCBR3 TITANIUM 4 DEGREE CAMBER
    | 6" FRONT WHEELS
    | TRFW9 PLASTIC W/POLY CASTERS NCO
    | TRFK1 TiLite STANDARD FORK STD
    |
    | 24" LX Spinergy Back Wheels
    | TRAXL1 STAINLESS QUICK RELEASE AXLES STD
    | TRRTR1 TREADED TIRES STD
    | TRRIM1 SILVER ANO HANDRIMS STD
    | TRRIM7 SHORT HANDRIM TABS STD
    | TRWLK7 COMPACT COMPOSITE PUSH TO LOCK STD
    | TRUPC1 BLACK UPHOLSTERY STD
    |
    | TRSUP1 TENSION ADJ BOLT ON SEAT UPH STD
    |
    | TRCLF2 VELCRO ADJ CALF STRAP LG K0038


    Here's the new specs

    Tilite TR Series 3
    18" Seat Width (no taper)
    18" Seat Depth
    19 Custom Frame Depth
    70 Degree Front Angle
    19.5" Front Seat Height
    17" Rear Seat Height
    17.5" Seat To Footrest Height
    V Front
    Titanium Open Loop Footrest 9? Wide
    4? Deep Ridgedizer bar
    Folding Seat back (aluminum)13.5? -16.5?(integrated push handles)
    Set @ 13.5"
    92 Degree Back
    3.5" Center Of Gravity
    .75" Rear Wheel Spacing
    Titanium Camber Tube TRCBR3
    0 Degree Camber
    Uni-Lock Set At: Push TRWLK3
    6?x1.5? LiteSpeed Billet Aluminum Wheel w/Soft Roll Tire
    Standard Fork w/ Titanium Stems
    Rear Wheels: 25" Golz Twin-star Exchange Wheels w/
    Schwalbe Speedrun Tires
    Short Tab Titanium Handrims
    Axles: Stainless Quick Release TRAXL1
    Back Upholstery TRBUP2 ❑ Velcro Adjustable
    Will replace with Jayback J3 with extended hardware
    Seat Upholstery:Tension adjustable by straps
    Roho Cushion High Profile 18.25? L x 16.5? W

    #2
    The TR3's CoG is super adjustable. Why do you need to know before hand; do you desire curved back tubing joints? If not you can just order it with less than 3.5" (forcing squared tubing jhoints) and adjust it after you get it.

    Click image for larger version

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    If you'd like to compare Overall Frame Lengths of the two chairs, I can draw them for you. Let me know.

    (I drew mine before ordering.

    Here's a video of it.)

    No, it's not easy to calculate CoG.
    Last edited by chasmengr; 19 Feb 2015, 9:21 PM.
    Chas
    TiLite TR3
    Dual-Axle TR3 with RioMobility DragonFly
    I am a person with mild/moderate hexaparesis (impaired movement in 4 limbs, head, & torso) caused by RRMS w/TM C7&T7 incomplete.

    "I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but what I don't think you realize is that what you heard is not what I meant."
    <
    UNKNOWN AUTHOR>

    Comment


      #3
      I'd be curious to see you sitting in your current chair.
      C5-6 Complete - 8/13/1982

      Comment


        #4
        yea. a picture of you in current chair would help.
        walking is OVER-RATED!!!

        Broken in August 14th, 2003. T9-L1 complete.

        Comment


          #5
          Assorted photos

          Thanks for your response. Here's a few pictures... not much of a photographer. BTW Chasmengr: That's a very generous offer to draw the chair. And enjoyed the video. I was able to determine the frame length by subtracting the 10 degrees front angle (-3")and adding the extra inch of frame length. approx. 2" less overall.
          Attached Files

          Comment


            #6
            Hey Togs, just my opinion that chair looks to wide for you and your foot plates look way to low. Do you not experience problems with circulation do your feet swell or turn purple? I would also think you could benefit from A tapered front end as opposed to the V.

            Comment


              #7
              Yes, the footplates are too low. My ankles don't swell, but I use compression socks. I should be able to adjust it upward 1/2" but unfortunately, the factory overtightened the screw and I destroyed the bolt trying to adjust it.
              I will hopefully be able to adjust the new one better and have spec'd it 1/2" less SEAT TO FOOTREST. Why would a tapered front end be better than a "V"? NOTE: I have reduced the footplate width to 9" from 12".

              Comment


                #8
                Chasmengr:
                Yes. I think your strategy makes sense. No need to fool around. I'll order the square rear end. I was originally thinking that the round rear frame would be more stable and less apt to break... but the trade off is not worth it. Also, would your drawing program be able to reveal the wheel base and exact width of the chair? I'd like a drawing if it's not too much trouble. I am trying to figure out the best way to get wheels closer to the frame. My current chair has a .75" wheel space but it seems like it could easily be narrowed by .5". I'd like to spec a .5" and then try 0 degree camber... but they won't let you order it that way. So I'll try .75" and 0 camber and see if that make it better.
                Last edited by TogsT8; 20 Feb 2015, 1:25 PM. Reason: address to poster specifically

                Comment


                  #9
                  I concur with the other that your chair looks to be wider than you need. You mention wanting the wheels in closer, what is your reasoning? I am wondering if a narrower chair will resolve what you are looking for.

                  If more dump in your chair would not bother you, getting the rear down more would give you better reach to your wheels.

                  What are you trying to accomplish with the added inch? You mention you feel your current chair is to short and loosened the straps. Adding the extra inch will not give you more seating area. If you want more seating area then order a 19" seat depth.

                  You have long legs, but have you considered going to an 80 degree frame? 70 degrees is stretched out there still.

                  I am somewhere around 6-1 to 6-2 and here is my current setup: https://www.carecure.net/forum/showt...=1#post1591233

                  Here is my previous chair that had an 80 degree front: https://www.carecure.net/forum/showt...=1#post1358234

                  Here is an old side-by-side picture of me in my 60 degree Quickie ad my 80 degree TR:
                  Click image for larger version

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                  Last edited by Brianm; 20 Feb 2015, 2:41 PM.
                  C5-6 Complete - 8/13/1982

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I also agree that your current chair at 18" is too wide for you. I am 5'10" and almost 200lbs, and I still have no problem fitting in my 16" ZR. My daily chair is a 17" TR3. I would suggest that you order a 16" or no more than 17" wide chair with 2 degree camber. That should provide better handling and stability but still give you a narrow enough chair. I find that little bit of camber helps. I have a chair with 0 degree and it's not good around fast turns or uneven ground. And forget about leaning over the side to pick things up; I can tip it sideways.

                    A 9 inch wide footrest is pretty narrow for a man's foot. Unless you have very small, narrow feet (with shoes), I would go with no less than 10". Try measuring the width of your feet with your favorite shoes and add an inch, to see your minimum. Seat frame taper is okay for some. Women like it because it forces their knees together and makes them look slimmer and neater. But too much taper is a "junk" squasher on most men. My ZR has 2.5" front seat taper and it's kind of tough on the old "family jewels." I have to make a substantial crotch adjustment every time I transfer into it. It's not good doing this in public, especially not in church.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by TogsT8 View Post
                      . . . Also, would your drawing program be able to reveal the wheel base and exact width of the chair? . . .
                      My drawings will yield only approximate wheelbase and width because I have to guess at some measurements TiLite doesn't publish. If you tell me what your current wheelbase is, my drawings will be more accurate. TiLite has a chair-width calculator on their website.

                      To determine my seat width, I sat on the floor with one thigh/hip against a door, placed a large book (e.g., coffee-table book) vertically against my other hip, and had another person measure my hip width (inside face of book to door). Because I have full sensation and often stand (don't desire a tight fitting chair), I rounded up to the next full inch, and use sideguards to keep wheels from rubbing my clothes.

                      I will start drawing today, and expect to be done early next week, hopefuly sooner. Do you want a movie or just pics (i.e., screen shots)?
                      Last edited by chasmengr; 20 Feb 2015, 5:10 PM.
                      Chas
                      TiLite TR3
                      Dual-Axle TR3 with RioMobility DragonFly
                      I am a person with mild/moderate hexaparesis (impaired movement in 4 limbs, head, & torso) caused by RRMS w/TM C7&T7 incomplete.

                      "I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but what I don't think you realize is that what you heard is not what I meant."
                      <
                      UNKNOWN AUTHOR>

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Brianm View Post
                        I concur with the other that your chair looks to be wider than you need. You mention wanting the wheels in closer, what is your reasoning? I am wondering if a narrower chair will resolve what you are looking for.

                        If more dump in your chair would not bother you, getting the rear down more would give you better reach to your wheels.

                        What are you trying to accomplish with the added inch? You mention you feel your current chair is to short and loosened the straps. Adding the extra inch will not give you more seating area. If you want more seating area then order a 19" seat depth.

                        You have long legs, but have you considered going to an 80 degree frame? 70 degrees is stretched out there still.

                        I am somewhere around 6-1 to 6-2 and here is my current setup: https://www.carecure.net/forum/showt...=1#post1591233

                        Here is my previous chair that had an 80 degree front: https://www.carecure.net/forum/showt...=1#post1358234

                        Here is an old side-by-side picture of me in my 60 degree Quickie ad my 80 degree TR:
                        [ATTACH]56545[/ATTACH]
                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        BrianM: Thank you for posting your photos. I have already studied your chair and other pics previously on another thread. It's very helpful as we are of similar size. The Quickie you have is very much like my previous chair (2HP) that I modeled my current one on. That's why I spec'd it to have 60 degree front! I have yet to see anyone else with that degree. My new specs are to cut it down to 70 degrees (which makes the chair 3" shorter). I'm not sure I will like having the angle any sharper... It would be better for turning radius.. but I'm not sure how comfortable it would be hour after hour. That's the whole difficulty with this specification task... every decision is in stone. It would be nice to trial different settings over a few days. In answer to your question about the added inch. My current chair was ordered too short... so I'm adding an inch of frame length to compensate. Also, I will be getting a jayback j3 which has extended hardware to give about 2 inches of depth flexibility. The loosened flexible Tilite back rest has been bad for my posture. Hopefully this new back will fix that.

                        About the wheel base. I have no desire to have the wheels closer... but that will be inevitable when I make the front angle sharper. I was curious what the effect would be on the COG. I believe it may require me to shorten it. Currently it's about 4". That issue is not so important now... I've decided to just get the square back so that I have complete flexibility there. (I wanted the rounded back for aesthetics and less opportunity for frame fracture.)

                        Chas:
                        Thanks for your tip about the width. 3 members have now said I should spec a narrower chair by 1 or 2 inches which certainly gives me pause about my current specs. I did try a 17" width chair recently, and felt very cramped... but my cushion was crammed into it (as it's 18.25" wide) and the length of the chair was too short. Perhaps that was the problem.

                        You guys are raising a lot of great issues. Very glad I reached out to you all.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Thank you all for responding... I responded in detail to these last posts about 3 hrs ago... but the post disappeared. (I tried the GO ADVANCED button and that's what I got) Here's another shot at it... I hope it doesn't arrive later and duplicate everything I'm saying twice,

                          Brian M:

                          Thanks for posting those photos. I am familiar with your chair after studying it on another thread. It's very helpful as we are of similar height. I also had a Quickie 2HP. In fact that's why I ordered my first TR3 with 60 degree front... that's what the Quickie was. Everyone in this community seems to prefer 80 to 90 degree front ends.

                          I don't know about going all the way to 80 degrees. It would certainly be better for turning radius but I don't know if my legs would feel cramped after a few hours. That's the difficult thing about this task.. everything is in stone so, and it's almost impossible to try out options that may indeed be better.

                          Wheel spacing: I don't want them closer, but I will lose 3" of length if I keep my current spec and go from 60 degrees front end to 70 degrees. I was initially concerned that it would have an impact on COG.. but I've decided to go with the sq. end so that won't be an issue.

                          About dump: I don't like too much dump..but, I am going from 24" to 25" wheels so that should improve my access to the wheels. I spent a great deal of time deciding on the dump issue and the front and back STF measurement. My solution was to go on the high side for each measurement and to get tension adjustable strap seat upholstery so I can lower it if necessary.


                          Chas:

                          Thanks for your tip about the width. 3 members have now said I should spec a narrower chair by 1 or 2 inches which certainly gives me pause about my current specs. I did try a 17" width chair recently, and felt very cramped... but my cushion was crammed into it (as it's 18.25" wide) and the length of the chair was too short. Perhaps that was the problem. I may give it another try.

                          Ala:

                          Seat taper: I did not spec any seat taper.

                          9 inch footrest specs: My feet, when together are just under 9" wide. I was thinking that having them confined would keep them more stable. Right now my feet slide all over the place. Of course, much of that is due to the fact that the footrest is about 1/2" too low. Do you still think I need an extra inch? This footrest width measurement is definitely one of those things I'd like to hear from those with experience about.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I don't know what your disability is nor what your comfort level will be with using an 80 degree front, but if you were comfortable with it I can't imagine you not liking it from a use standpoint. Once I finally got into a more compact chair I couldn't believe how much easier life was. I am now using an 85 degree front; I had to raise my front seat height to 20" for ground clearance and I still don't have a lot. Maybe you can experiment by bringing your feet back as far as you can.

                            You may want to consider a TRA so you can experiment with the rear seat height. Twenty-five inch wheels will certainly help, they did me, but you are still sitting pretty high in the back. That said, only you know your comfort. Adjusting seat height via the seat straps is not a good plan.

                            When I was talking wheel spacing, I was talking the distance of the tire from the frame, i.e 0.75" or 1", etc.

                            Chair width, you want to be snug in your chair and as recommended, use side guards.

                            I would echo the recommendation of getting 2 degrees of camber, it will make maneuvering easier.

                            Footrest width: I am currently using 11" and plan to select 10.5" next time.
                            Last edited by Brianm; 20 Feb 2015, 10:23 PM.
                            C5-6 Complete - 8/13/1982

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I'm 6'1" and 190 lbs. I have an 11" footrest and with my everyday shoes on, I have between a 1/2" & 3/4" on each side.

                              Here's the link to my TR3 /forum/showthread.php?200294-Got-my-TR3-today!!!
                              SCI Birthday: April 25, 1993
                              T4,5,6 Incomplete
                              Chair: TiLite TR3

                              Comment

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