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    When I took my MX-1 Smartdrive LiFeP04 battery pack apart I found no battery management system inside to keep the cells balanced. It bothered me so much that I took it apart another time just to be sure there was none. There wasn't. As a result of this cool thread I'm learning why, thank you. That battery that supposedly can't be connected in series got me to googling. What I learned is that without a Battery Management System, the battery needs to stand alone to balance, or actually under 30 volts is okay. Read the following through C). http://www.lithbattery.com/knowledge...ifepo4battery/
    I have had periodic paralysis all my life. I lost my ability to walk in 2011 beginning with a spinal block, which was used for a hip fracture caused by periodic paralysis.

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      Ok guys thank you for your input ! Off course the ZX-1 is working with 2 serial batts, I apologize for this mistake. I think I will try these Bioenno power from ElectricScooterParts, it's the best option anyway. I just hope they will be "Plug&Play" and that Spinergy didn't put somewhere (?) a kind of locking device, to keep the users captive and force them to buy the batts from the official resellers. These guys can be nasty when they want. We'll see…
      C6-7 since mid 2002, no hand control nor triceps.
      my website & my job (in France): Accessibility advisor www.acceslibre.eu
      Also working on a French research about Peer counseling and Empowerment.

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        Good zLuck!
        The World is Watching You!
        69yo male T12 complete since 1995
        NW NJ

        Comment


          Originally posted by robotnik View Post
          Ok guys thank you for your input ! Off course the ZX-1 is working with 2 serial batts, I apologize for this mistake. I think I will try these Bioenno power from ElectricScooterParts, it's the best option anyway. I just hope they will be "Plug&Play" and that Spinergy didn't put somewhere (?) a kind of locking device, to keep the users captive and force them to buy the batts from the official resellers. These guys can be nasty when they want. We'll see…
          These are 180 Watt hours. https://electricscooterparts.com/lif...batteries.html s The price might be indicative of a shorter travel time. I could not find online the Wh requirement/specs. So what I would do is to pull an existing Lithium battery out of a ZX-1 and see how it is marked/rated.
          I have had periodic paralysis all my life. I lost my ability to walk in 2011 beginning with a spinal block, which was used for a hip fracture caused by periodic paralysis.

          Comment


            The link yields some interesting "information" (fake news?):
            B). Fast "forced" charging
            Because an overvoltage can be applied to the LiFePO4 battery it can be charged by only one step of CC to reach 95%SOC or be charged by CC+CV to get100%SOC. This is similar to the way lead acid batteries are safely force charged.

            C). Large overcharge tolerance and safer performance
            A LiFePO4 battery can be safely overcharged up to 30V without protection circuit board. It is therefore suitable for large capacity and high power applications.From the viewpoint of large overcharge tolerance and safety performance, a LiFePO4 battery is similar to a lead-acid battery.

            D). Higher energy density
            the lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) cell is a non-aqueous system, having 3.2V as its nominal voltage during discharge. Its specific capacity is more than145Ah/kg. Therefore, the gravimetric energy density of LiFePO4 battery is 130Wh/kg,

            E). Simplified battery management system and battery charger
            Large overcharge tolerance and self-balance characteristic of LiFePO4 battery can simplify the battery protection and balance circuit boards, lowering theircost.

            The charging info is interesting.

            My understanding of C) and E) implies that a BMS may not be necessary??
            69yo male T12 complete since 1995
            NW NJ

            Comment


              Spinergy's site shows the conversion to Lithium. I closely watched and the battery pair the installed seemed to match the specs of those under consideration exactly! https://youtu.be/687CW1QxkJI 15Ah 180Wh It's at about 0:30

              Have you looked at the wiring diagrams of the LA vs Lithium circuits? Spinergy writes the external BMS protects the batteries in charge and discharge. I have not yet gotten my head around it if they are being completely honest needing it or not. If I were upgrading I'd just go with a 24 volt pack and ignore the external BMS. But high and low voltage cutoffs might get involved during operation.


              I have had periodic paralysis all my life. I lost my ability to walk in 2011 beginning with a spinal block, which was used for a hip fracture caused by periodic paralysis.

              Comment


                Originally posted by pfcs49 View Post
                The link yields some interesting "information" (fake news?):
                B). Fast "forced" charging
                Because an overvoltage can be applied to the LiFePO4 battery it can be charged by only one step of CC to reach 95%SOC or be charged by CC+CV to get100%SOC. This is similar to the way lead acid batteries are safely force charged.

                C). Large overcharge tolerance and safer performance
                A LiFePO4 battery can be safely overcharged up to 30V without protection circuit board. It is therefore suitable for large capacity and high power applications.From the viewpoint of large overcharge tolerance and safety performance, a LiFePO4 battery is similar to a lead-acid battery.

                D). Higher energy density
                the lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) cell is a non-aqueous system, having 3.2V as its nominal voltage during discharge. Its specific capacity is more than145Ah/kg. Therefore, the gravimetric energy density of LiFePO4 battery is 130Wh/kg,

                E). Simplified battery management system and battery charger
                Large overcharge tolerance and self-balance characteristic of LiFePO4 battery can simplify the battery protection and balance circuit boards, lowering theircost.

                The charging info is interesting.

                My understanding of C) and E) implies that a BMS may not be necessary??
                I exactly agree about the external bms. It may be overkill and not necessary or may be absolutely required. Without more internal knowledge it is hard to say.
                I have had periodic paralysis all my life. I lost my ability to walk in 2011 beginning with a spinal block, which was used for a hip fracture caused by periodic paralysis.

                Comment


                  i have had the zx with lithium for several years now, really has been flawless. i did reprogram and tweek mine in the beginning...... I always suggest to all my customers purchasing a new unit to go with the lithium ion set up really is the only way to go as a matter fact I wish they were dump the standard set up for lithium only from the manufacturer.
                  Bike-on.com rep
                  John@bike-on.com
                  c4/5 inc funtioning c6. 28 yrs post.
                  sponsored handcycle racer

                  Comment


                    hi all,
                    Interesting news.
                    Just before ordering my batteries to Electric Scooter Parts, I tried the last bullet in my neighborhood. I phoned an industrial battery reseller nearby to have a quote.
                    the guy has had very quickly the answer from his first supplier (a French battery "builder" but I'm pretty sure he's buying his batts in China and just glue his own stickers) According to him, the serial mount on the ZX-1 was total crap, it was very dangerous to use these connectors with so many Amps, and by the way his batts were below 12A in this shape (!)
                    My reseller asked then another supplier working for him as battery rebuilder, but also well-known builder (and still in France)
                    Answer : the guy is able to build a custom battery for my use, and with this enclosure can reach 40A of continuous discharge current, 65A in peak !
                    So, I'm delaying my order to ESP, and I have to give this builder all the literature I can find on the ZX-1 that could help him to make an accurate offer. I read the previous pages of this thread from 42 to now, and found a link to an "official Spinergy" YT vid about the ZX and the swap from LA to LFP. I also found the manual and took the pages about wiring harnesses. I have still an issue with the "external BMS" which seems to be a mystery.
                    Do you think there's something else interesting to provide ?

                    C6-7 since mid 2002, no hand control nor triceps.
                    my website & my job (in France): Accessibility advisor www.acceslibre.eu
                    Also working on a French research about Peer counseling and Empowerment.

                    Comment


                      I was startled to see 6.3mm push connections to the batteries! If not attended to (clean and tensioned) they quickly become troublemakers.
                      I wouldn't say they are dangerous however. When these terminals were commonly used, the much larger 10mm size were used for circuits over 16A.

                      IMO the best implementation might be two 24V batteries in parallel. The circuit could be rearranged, moving the circuit breaker which is installed between the two 12V LA batteries, and putting it at either (+/-) end of the battery pair.

                      And if it was necessary to sometimes charge them individually, it would be easy to implement a toggle switch to isolate them for charging.

                      Could you link the stuff so it's all here for study please?
                      69yo male T12 complete since 1995
                      NW NJ

                      Comment


                        Nice catch Phil, the ESP site says the terminal is a Faston F2 which when looked up is only 1/4 inch wide. When I re watch Spinergy's battery installation, I can't tell the size they have. One thing though, I've never encountered corrosion with lithium at the terminals like what happens with lead acid.

                        I have had periodic paralysis all my life. I lost my ability to walk in 2011 beginning with a spinal block, which was used for a hip fracture caused by periodic paralysis.

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                          PS: if the batteries are used in a parallel configuration, the current through the terminals is halved making them pretty adequate.
                          69yo male T12 complete since 1995
                          NW NJ

                          Comment


                            Hi guys. I have just received my new ZX1 and it doesn't seem to like the USB to XLR plug programmer. I have used this cable to program the ZX1 for quite some time and it works on the old one but the comms port is active for a second then inactive making their no possibility of entering programming adjustments.

                            I'm using PG drives technology-mobility programmer access level C (manufacturing) 8.0.16

                            Has anybody been having any difficulty programming a newly purchased ZX1?

                            Anyway any assistance is appreciated.

                            Steve

                            I worked out it was the joystick controller cable join as I plugged the old VR2 into it that has no join and ran the programming through it that way.
                            Last edited by takenaback; 2 Aug 2020, 12:29 AM.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by takenaback View Post
                              Just to bring this to a close and for the benefit of others. After pulling apart clips and rejoining wires in the BMS box I no longer have this slowdown issue.

                              Just as an aside, the current set of lithium-ion drop-in replacements have more guts than any previous ones. I always use the same brand here in Australia and to be quite honest it is hard to even get it to go into slow mode. They've made significant improvements over the years. First of all the BMS inside the batteries would cut out and the only way to restore it was to disconnect and reconnect the batteries or insert the charger. After that the batteries had a recoverable mode. What I mean by that is after a minute or so the batteries would come to life. And this current iteration are by far the best I've ever had. https://www.batteriesdirect.com.au/s...xoCvWcQAvD_BwE
                              Steve
                              I have had issues with my controller voltage lights rapidly decreasing, indicating battery problems on my 5 year old, original, Poweriser LiFePO4 batteries.

                              First off I thought 'dirty connections', so pulled off battery connections, cleaned terminals, but still the same, so I got new Fusion LiFePO4 batteries, like Takenaback uses (I'm in Australia too).

                              Put new batteries in, charged them, and lights do the same thing. On a short distance, voltage battery gauge drops greens the starts of orange. Switch controller on/off and all green again, until move on and slowly gauge drops lights. on/off, back to green, runns fine but lights go out. Then it started to go into 'limp mode' more and more frequently, and I only just got home (short trip to shops and back - about 1.8km, with steep hill). This is a normal trip that was easy before.

                              Next is to:
                              • check voltages of charged new batteries (old ones were charged to14.4V and 13.6V when removed) to see if charger at fault.
                              • Try a normal 12v charger on each battery to see if not charging fully
                              • Test again
                              Then find out what Takenaback did with hid BMS to get function back.

                              Anyone else had similar symptoms? Be interested in what solutions you tried.

                              Also, anyone bought another charger - if so what type and where, as that may be problem, although original still functions as expected.

                              Cheers Colin
                              Just love inventing stuff.

                              Comment



                                First of all it's unbelievable that you got five years out of batteries. All I did with the BMS was to get a carer to open the box unclip the little wire connectors and give it a bit of a blow, reconnect and Bob's your uncle. Not saying it will fix your problems.

                                Spinergy now have a new BMS as I have taken possession of a new ZX1 and I have to tell you something, the Poweriser batteries have some serious guts in comparison to the fusion lithium batteries. I know I was speaking highly of the fusion lithium batteries but I believe the Poweriser batteries are better. Just out of interest I swapped the batteries over and with the new BMS and I managed to get the old fusion batteries to bring the new ZX1 to a lock, in other words the BMS within the batteries acted, but that's okay apart from destroying the battery a little, I knew it would start up again after a couple of minutes so I wasn't stuck. Something I am yet to test with the Poweriser batteries as I haven't been able to get them in slow mode at all. I really want to be sure if the internal battery BMS causes an absolute lock/stop that the battery will come to life again.

                                I've got several chargers but they're all the same.

                                Mate no doubt you've got the NDIS get a new ZX1! It's great to have two functional ones.



                                Cheers
                                Steve

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