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    I need to explain more about what happened:
    - I ordered in china 2 batteries I was expecting to do the job. My mistake, the "continuous discharging current" and "max current discharge" were far below the ZX-1 needs. As a result, the bad boy was rolling at low speed, but shutting down (I mean : total shut down with only one red led blinking) every time I was hitting the joystick.
    - I called my reseller and ordered 2 batts for replacement (I know, I should have done this first, but I'm poorly confident in these guys…)
    - I tried the batts as soon as they were delivered. Total failure another time, my ZX-1 was rolling, but entering in crawl mode (50% power loss) when I was asking for speed. Battery lifetime was awful, the range was less than 1 mile. After verifying, it appeared it was 2 lead-acid batteries, as the newer importer for France wasn't selling anything else. But my ZX-1 was bought 6 years ago with the LifePo4 upgrade. The importer, a true douchebag, asked me to downgrade to Lead-Acid technology, but I opposed and closed the relationship.
    - I went back to my Chinese battery supplier. He gave me specs of another BMS that should do the job, and I ordered 2 of these, very affordable. With 50A of instantaneous current, I was confident.
    - We swapped the BMS, no rocket science here, just a bit of surgery on the battery enclosure and 6solders to do after removal of the old BMS.
    - time to try… and disappointment: the bad boy is still rolling at low speed, and when power is needed, enters in crawl mode. Same result as with the lead-acid batts.
    So, I have some doubts. Obviously the new BMS have modified the battery performance, but still far below the needs and my expectations (!). That's why I think there's another issue somewhere, the charge may be, or an update or reset, as the ZX-1 doesn't make the difference between Lead-acid or LiFePo4 batteries. Will it work with "official" 250$ items. I would like to be sure.
    Here are the specs of the batts and the BMS for you guys. And I may be wrong, but I think on the ZX-1 it's a serial mode mount, so 24V (?)



    C6-7 since mid 2002, no hand control nor triceps.
    my website & my job (in France): Accessibility advisor www.acceslibre.eu
    Also working on a French research about Peer counseling and Empowerment.

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      double post ! Mistake…
      Last edited by robotnik; 16 Jun 2020, 1:04 PM.
      C6-7 since mid 2002, no hand control nor triceps.
      my website & my job (in France): Accessibility advisor www.acceslibre.eu
      Also working on a French research about Peer counseling and Empowerment.

      Comment


        Originally posted by robotnik View Post
        ...- I went back to my Chinese battery supplier. He gave me specs of another BMS that should do the job, and I ordered 2 of these, very affordable. With 50A of instantaneous current,...
        Instantaneous current is not enough to keep you up to speed. The determining factor is continuous current draw. For this set your posted specs read equal or less than 20Amps. That appears to not be enough, or the batteries are deficient. What would be most interesting to me is to find out exactly what individual cells Spinergy is using in their battery packs. By cells I mean the guts of the battery. Each battery is made up of smaller batteries wired together in series and or parallel to reach the desired voltage and other ratings. If I was in your shoes and still had the old Spinergy batteries, I'd just open one up and find out what they used and buy the same or comparable.

        I have had periodic paralysis all my life. I lost my ability to walk in 2011 beginning with a spinal block, which was used for a hip fracture caused by periodic paralysis.

        Comment


          thanks for your explanation, Nonoise. It makes sense. I think I'm done with these ones, but as you suggest I'll try to know whose type of cells are in the OEM models. At this moment they are still running.
          I really don't know why it's so difficult to find suitable batteries for this damn thing. After all, even if it is clever, it's made around wheelchair technology, with wheelchair motors… It's not a Tesla car !!
          C6-7 since mid 2002, no hand control nor triceps.
          my website & my job (in France): Accessibility advisor www.acceslibre.eu
          Also working on a French research about Peer counseling and Empowerment.

          Comment


            Just noticed something else as shown on Phil's ZX1 motor photo above. The rating sticker shows 3amps and 320 watts, each, for a total of 6 amps and 620 watts.possible demand. Compare that with what your specs are and what is available in lithium. These are big power chair motors, are they not?
            I have had periodic paralysis all my life. I lost my ability to walk in 2011 beginning with a spinal block, which was used for a hip fracture caused by periodic paralysis.

            Comment


              OK nonoise, you must be right. I don't know why I can't find a pair in China, even unbranded. Never mind, I'll try a battery specialist here.
              Last question (you've seen I can't be proud of my battery knowledge) Why didn't it work with the Lead-Acid batteries, that were OEM ? The current output should be correct too ?
              C6-7 since mid 2002, no hand control nor triceps.
              my website & my job (in France): Accessibility advisor www.acceslibre.eu
              Also working on a French research about Peer counseling and Empowerment.

              Comment


                Originally posted by robotnik View Post
                OK nonoise, you must be right. I don't know why I can't find a pair in China, even unbranded. Never mind, I'll try a battery specialist here.
                Last question (you've seen I can't be proud of my battery knowledge) Why didn't it work with the Lead-Acid batteries, that were OEM ? The current output should be correct too ?
                There are definitely lithium cells that will work, these for example, but might be a little large:
                https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000...4%239976%23585 They are LiFeP04, similar power denisty should be available in newer, lighter more compact chemistries, like NCM.

                There could be a number of reasons for the failed LA batteries. I have been curious about the BMS angle and why Spinergy uses that term outside the battery pack. I read that for lithium Spinergy hs a special harness containing a bms which connects to the batteries. I might be wrong, but it appears that one needs that harness with lithium and if it was used with LA the chair might not perform correctly. As for BMS, Battery Management System I know about, it has three functions. The BMS resides *inside* the battery pack. It's first job is to balance the cells charge so that lithium cells remain equally charged. I say lithium cells because lead acid and NIMH self balance so no BMS is necessary. The second important thing the BMS does is Low Voltage Cutoff, LVC. Lithium cells will die if their voltage gets too low, so the BMS protects the battery pack from dying. It also has a high voltage cutoff HVC as shown on the chargers.

                The ZX1 might shut off with lithium LVC before it would with lead acid. Those who are getting stuck in their chairs with lithium, this might be the cause.

                So your French dealer might have mixed bms, mis matched or as I suspect ill informed you about how to switch over to LA.

                I'm beginning to understand why the inventor has not switched to lithium.
                I have had periodic paralysis all my life. I lost my ability to walk in 2011 beginning with a spinal block, which was used for a hip fracture caused by periodic paralysis.

                Comment


                  I think we have a winner ! More, we may have 3…I've search all day long yesterday, and here are the results :
                  - winner of "the most expensive offer": my DME sent me an offer for 2 batts LiFePo4 for the ZX-1, hitting the top of the scale at … 1200$ for both ! I tried not to laugh…
                  - winner of "the most powerful battery" : this Chinese plant can built at your own name a 12v 22A LiFePo4 model ! Same design and enclosure that suits the ZX-1. The price is negotiable, as this guy needs an order of … 100 pcs minimum. OK, it means we must find 50 ZX-1 owners to start, but … 22A could be a great improvement for the ZX-1's battery life !! Almost twice more… http://www.createbattery.com/12V-22A...ttery-p78.html
                  - winner overall : ElectricScooterParts in California has a battery with specs very close, virtually identical, to the ZX-1's OEM batt (Powerizer)
                  I also found Powerizer items at 199,95$, but no one was shipping to France.
                  The batts at ElectricScooterParts are affordable (149$), they ship oversea, and even with shipping fees and VAT, it will cost me a lot less than buying them to my douchebag reseller.
                  Here are the specs of their model (Bioenno power), could you guys double-check them and tell me if you see an issue ?

                  C6-7 since mid 2002, no hand control nor triceps.
                  my website & my job (in France): Accessibility advisor www.acceslibre.eu
                  Also working on a French research about Peer counseling and Empowerment.

                  Comment


                    Check this link out: https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/ele...alculator.html
                    Phil's photo above shows each motor having a rating of 320 watts. The ZX-1 runs on 24 volts. Plugging those into the calculator reveals a draw of 25.8 A which would be worst case.

                    These California batteries spec 30 A How long they last is the next question to solve.

                    The issue here is trying to find drop in replacements for the lead acids since all I have ever seen is that those drop ins are LiFeP04 types. You can get much more capacity in the same space from newer the newer chemistries. But Spinergy has not chosen to upgrade, probably due to shipping.
                    I have had periodic paralysis all my life. I lost my ability to walk in 2011 beginning with a spinal block, which was used for a hip fracture caused by periodic paralysis.

                    Comment


                      very great! I'll track this down so I car read the lower right column. So fat this looks like a winner!
                      It would be great if the Chinese guy would give some pricing for a small run (6+ batts.) I'd roll the dice. Maybe if they worked we could promise him to spread the word?
                      69yo male T12 complete since 1995
                      NW NJ

                      Comment


                        Here is 50 A continuous discharge USA
                        https://dakotalithium.com/product/da...motor-battery/
                        I have had periodic paralysis all my life. I lost my ability to walk in 2011 beginning with a spinal block, which was used for a hip fracture caused by periodic paralysis.

                        Comment


                          Looks fine to me! 30A continuous/60A for 2 secs would be more than enough. My ammeter momentarily (2sec?) reported 38A (912W) on a full throttle run up a steep slope. Shouldn't be any problem for these batteries.
                          The ammeter is usually in low single digits, even on fairly steep roads.

                          I want to see the info on the right, like what's it say about series operation, etc.
                          69yo male T12 complete since 1995
                          NW NJ

                          Comment


                            here is the complete sheet of specs. They do NOT recommend parallel use… and ask for 2 independents chargers ! This bothers me a little, no way I can manage that every time my ZX-1 is empty.
                            I hope it is their "optimal" use, and it can work fine without all these cares. It worked for five years with the Powerized batts, why shouldn't these work?

                            C6-7 since mid 2002, no hand control nor triceps.
                            my website & my job (in France): Accessibility advisor www.acceslibre.eu
                            Also working on a French research about Peer counseling and Empowerment.

                            Comment


                            • robotnik
                              robotnik commented
                              Editing a comment
                              my mistake here. It is, of course, serial mode for the ZX-1 .

                            Our application would be series connection, but they are pretty dismissive of series operation as well. Crap shoot! Who's in?
                            I wonder if the factory BMS has strategies that watch both batteries and balance the charging? If so, is there something available on the open market to do so or is it also telemetry in the factory LiFePO batteries? I'd like to see the BMS thing that they put between the two batteries on the up-grade.
                            My early setup just has a circuit-breaker on the 12v leg between the batteries.
                            69yo male T12 complete since 1995
                            NW NJ

                            Comment


                              I am assuming this is a 24v system, 2 12v batteries in series. Charging them in parallel at 12v would be quit a hassle. You can't have the packs in series and parallel at the same time because this will create a short, so you can't easily use one 12v charger. I don't see a big problem with charging them in series other than there would be no way of balancing the two packs. The bms on each pack should keep things in check on each 12v side. As you charge at 24v in series one pack may be slightly more dominate than the other and charge to a higher voltage but the bms should stop the charge if the pack reaches overcharge level. Also the lower packs bms would cut power when it reached an undercharge state. 24v in series charge should work but the the 2 packs may drift apart in voltage over time and lower your usable ah. I have never charged two packs like this so you may need to do more research.

                              Another option is to find two 24v (~7-8ah) packs and put them in parallel. This would keep the two packs balanced and would be easy to charge.

                              Another option would be to build your own pack if you know what you are doing. I would get 8 headway 40152s 15ah cells in series and build one 24v pack with 4 cells on each side. Each cell is 40mm in diameter and 152mm long. With the holders this would make the pack slightly longer than the battery you have listed and may be difficult to cover in a box and mount. 8 cells, the holders and a bms and you should be set. These cells can handle all the amps you will ever need.

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