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  • I am looking there. This caught my eye and may (partially) explain the apparent paradox of SLA vs LiFePO Ah ratings (like a 10Ah Lifepo replaces a 15Ah acid)Home ? LiFePO4LiFePO4 12V 24-35ah 500 CCA PowerSport Battery





    MSRP: $274.95
    Price: $254.95
    You Save: $20.00
    Quantity:



    69yo male T12 complete since 1995
    NW NJ

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    • Note that it says sla "Equivalent" on the battery, not what the actual Ah:
      It does say 128 Watt Hours, which might be a better indicator of what the battery actually is. That $799 was like 1,280 watt hours, ten times as much and is what they are recommending for the ZX-1 (times two).
      Last edited by nonoise; 05-30-2019, 08:47 PM.
      I have had periodic paralysis all my life. I lost my ability to walk in 2011 beginning with a spinal block, which was used for a hip fracture caused by periodic paralysis.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by nonoise View Post
        Note that it says sla "Equivalent" on the battery, not what the actual Ah:
        And the spec page indicated : lithium amp hour 10
        I'd like someone to clarify this stuff!

        Also wondering how you predict battery reserve with LiFePO since the voltage stays almost constant until they precipitously stop. Wondering if there isn't some micro circuit device that watches consumption (V & A over time) and can spit out percentage of capacity remaining? My little digital meter already is outputting (instantaneous) V & A. I'd think some sort of consumption meter would be not a lot more to do. (my meter cost like $5.95)

        "It does say 128 Watt Hours, which might be a better indicator of what the battery actually is." At 12V that would be 10.66Ah?
        Really curious specs obscure what to expect! How can this equate to 2.4-3.5 times "lead equivalency"???
        69yo male T12 complete since 1995
        NW NJ

        Comment


        • Originally posted by pfcs49 View Post
          And the spec page indicated : lithium amp hour 10
          I'd like someone to clarify this stuff!

          Also wondering how you predict battery reserve with LiFePO since the voltage stays almost constant until they precipitously stop. Wondering if there isn't some micro circuit device that watches consumption (V & A over time) and can spit out percentage of capacity remaining? My little digital meter already is outputting (instantaneous) V & A. I'd think some sort of consumption meter would be not a lot more to do. (my meter cost like $5.95)

          "It does say 128 Watt Hours, which might be a better indicator of what the battery actually is." At 12V that would be 10.66Ah?
          Really curious specs obscure what to expect! How can this equate to 2.4-3.5 times "lead equivalency"???
          Volts times amps = watt hours. 12v X 10A = 120 Wh. They state 128Wh which is probably more exact due to rounding. Incidentally the original Smartdrive battery was 24v X 10A = 220 Wh. I've got one here you could try if you lived nearby, already tapped for connection. I'm pretty sure you would be disappointed.

          As for watching for when lithium batteries will turn themselves off, I can tell you that on my trike (48v 10Ah) I installed a simple volt meter. Full charge is around 54v, sorry I don't remember cutout voltage, never needed it. It's lookup available for LifePo4.
          Your meter should be fine.

          10.66 yes. 2.4-3-4 lead eq makes no sense to me.
          I have had periodic paralysis all my life. I lost my ability to walk in 2011 beginning with a spinal block, which was used for a hip fracture caused by periodic paralysis.

          Comment


          • 128Wh/12V=10.66Ah was my logic which I think is right.

            spec sheet states Lithium Ah=10
            lead/acid equivalent Ah, 24-35Ah which is 2.4-3.5x10"lithium" Ah

            Do you see a voltage drop soon enough to know you aren't past half full? IE: before it's too late to turn around!
            69yo male T12 complete since 1995
            NW NJ

            Comment


            • >128Wh/12V=10.66Ah was my logic which I think is right.
              I agree with your math, but...

              >spec sheet states Lithium Ah=10
              These could be 10.66Ah, but it is not common to rate LifeP04 cell sets in that amperage. 10Ah is normal.

              > lead/acid equivalent Ah, 24-35Ah which is 2.4-3.5x10"lithium" Ah
              So you think they are saying one of their lith batteries is as good as 2.4 to 3.5 sla's? I guess that is the question we are grappling with.

              >Do you see a voltage drop soon enough to know you aren't past half full? IE: before it's too late to turn around!
              No, it runs the same. I do notice a full charge, 29.4v and get used to the pep quickly. When I run out of steam the chair starts to act up a little about 15 seconds before cutting out. I've made the mistake of letting the battery rest a bit and turning it back on to get a little further along. Not so smart, the practice can damage the battery.
              I have had periodic paralysis all my life. I lost my ability to walk in 2011 beginning with a spinal block, which was used for a hip fracture caused by periodic paralysis.

              Comment


              • ">Do you see a voltage drop soon enough to know you aren't past half full? IE: before it's too late to turn around!
                No, it runs the same. I do notice a full charge, 29.4v and get used to the pep quickly. When I run out of steam the chair starts to act up a little about 15 seconds before cutting out. I've made the mistake of letting the battery rest a bit and turning it back on to get a little further along. Not so smart, the practice can damage the battery."

                This implies the need for a "consumption meter". Basically computing watts (AxV) over time so the user knows reasonably closely how much capacity has been used (Wh)
                69yo male T12 complete since 1995
                NW NJ

                Comment


                • Originally posted by pfcs49;1879412[COLOR=#333333

                  This implies the need for a "consumption meter". Basically computing watts (AxV) over time so the user knows reasonably closely how much capacity has been used (Wh) [/COLOR]
                  A recommendation from a member (power pod) here was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-idUaalx24 I put one on my trike, but never used any readout except volts. That battery never gave me any trouble. The video points out this meter clears it's memory when power is cut, so you'd have to keep a running total. I think static low voltage cutout is as good an indicator of battery condition. My problem with the I-Glide is that the battery does not have enough Watt hours. It is supposed to be the same battery that I bought to power the SmartDrive hack. I ran that over three miles, in fact I can't remember that hub motor ever sucking the battery dry like these brushed ones in the I-Glide do.
                  I have had periodic paralysis all my life. I lost my ability to walk in 2011 beginning with a spinal block, which was used for a hip fracture caused by periodic paralysis.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by pfcs49 View Post
                    ...
                    spec sheet states Lithium Ah=10
                    lead/acid equivalent Ah, 24-35Ah which is 2.4-3.5x10"lithium" Ah...
                    I was surprised to find the ZX-1 user manual on line today. https://manualzz.com/doc/6883887/zx-1-user-manual So now I understand why you took to a 15Ah lithium, but not why the battery source place claims it needs a 100Ah like I thought. So I looked further like I should have to begin with and looked up the specs on an M300. It uses two 60Ah (120 total) batteries but weighs a staggering 345 lbs, not the 75 to 82 of the ZX-1. So the ZX-1 should not need nearly as much power as a full power chair. This is good news for me too, BTW and is the reason my interest has been sparked.


                    The online ZX-1 manual shows:
                    Lead: 12 volt, 15 Ah (2). AGM. 5 - hr. capacity = 12.75 ah.
                    Lithium: LiFePO4 12 volt 15 Ah

                    But what is better, it confirms what others have been saying for battery range:
                    5 miles Minimum w/ Lead and 9 miles Minimum with Lithium Batteries
                    Last edited by nonoise; 05-31-2019, 11:25 PM.
                    I have had periodic paralysis all my life. I lost my ability to walk in 2011 beginning with a spinal block, which was used for a hip fracture caused by periodic paralysis.

                    Comment


                    • I get way lessw than 5 miles with my one with SLA 2x12v15ah. I've never come close to running low with the one with Lithiums. No comparison at all.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Patrick Madsen View Post
                        I get way lessw than 5 miles with my one with SLA 2x12v15ah. I've never come close to running low with the one with Lithiums. No comparison at all.
                        agreed, i dont know why they dont just make all zx with lithiums. i cringe when a customer insists on regular batteries.
                        Bike-on.com rep
                        John@bike-on.com
                        c4/5 inc funtioning c6. 28 yrs post.
                        sponsored handcycle racer

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                        • I am trending towards contacting whoever the distributor is (Spinergy?) and asking for the discount they offered at the Expo last year on the lithium conversion.
                          I can afford it, but I still operate out of the thrifty problem solver tech model I followed before retirement!
                          I bought my first new car in 06 and again in 16 (both GTIs) and found out that spending money is sometimes nice
                          WTF! In a week I'll be 72! Not taking it with me.
                          69yo male T12 complete since 1995
                          NW NJ

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by pfcs49 View Post
                            I am trending towards contacting whoever the distributor is (Spinergy?) and asking for the discount they offered at the Expo last year on the lithium conversion.
                            I can afford it, but I still operate out of the thrifty problem solver tech model I followed before retirement!
                            I bought my first new car in 06 and again in 16 (both GTIs) and found out that spending money is sometimes nice
                            WTF! In a week I'll be 72! Not taking it with me.
                            Study the possible function of the Spinery ZX-1 BMS on page 43 of the User Manual https://manualzz.com/doc/6883887/zx-1-user-manual. It does not look to me to be protecting the two batteries from interferring with each other, and they should each have their own built in BMS for balancing individual battery cells. I forget the exact numbers, but each little cell has a high limit of something like 3.7v and an important cutoff low voltage of 2.2v. The battery BMS takes care of this. However the user manual states that the Spinergy BMS reserves power after low voltage cutoff for the clamshell operation. That can only mean it cuts off power *before* or at a higher voltage than is necessary. I'd quiz them.
                            I have had periodic paralysis all my life. I lost my ability to walk in 2011 beginning with a spinal block, which was used for a hip fracture caused by periodic paralysis.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by nonoise View Post
                              Study the possible function of the Spinery ZX-1 BMS on page 43 of the User Manual https://manualzz.com/doc/6883887/zx-1-user-manual. It does not look to me to be protecting the two batteries from interferring with each other, and they should each have their own built in BMS for balancing individual battery cells. I forget the exact numbers, but each little cell has a high limit of something like 3.7v and an important cutoff low voltage of 2.2v. The battery BMS takes care of this. However the user manual states that the Spinergy BMS reserves power after low voltage cutoff for the clamshell operation. That can only mean it cuts off power *before* or at a higher voltage than is necessary. I'd quiz them.
                              What's different from the Pb battery scheme is that it has a connection to the middle of the two batteries (@12V level)
                              Perhaps it somehow balances the charging? Looking for two 12V LiFePO to charge in series, I found some that stated you couldn't charge that way.
                              Probably this schema is a BMS for a pair of 12V packs to ensure that they are equally charged if their resistances differ.

                              PS: thanks for the link; I didn't have the manual!
                              69yo male T12 complete since 1995
                              NW NJ

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by pfcs49 View Post
                                What's different from the Pb battery scheme is that it has a connection to the middle of the two batteries (@12V level)
                                Perhaps it somehow balances the charging? Looking for two 12V LiFePO to charge in series, I found some that stated you couldn't charge that way.
                                Probably this schema is a BMS for a pair of 12V packs to ensure that they are equally charged if their resistances differ.

                                PS: thanks for the link; I didn't have the manual!
                                I do not understand how that BMS could balance the charging.

                                Look back at the user manual page 42. The Pb batteries are not isolated during charge. It may not matter at all with Pb since the charger will trickle down if one battery fills faster than the other.
                                But looking at page 43 I don't see how that BMS could monitor the charge between batteries. And lithium chargers do not trickle down. So at full charge they cut off which might leave one battery weaker than the other. Combining batteries in series without a bms this way might be just fine. My original point was that you never said you found the Spinergy BMS on your ZX-1. I am questioning if it is necessary except to operate the clamshell.
                                I have had periodic paralysis all my life. I lost my ability to walk in 2011 beginning with a spinal block, which was used for a hip fracture caused by periodic paralysis.

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