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15x17+2 80 Degree TiLite TR3

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    #16
    Originally posted by jschism View Post
    are we no longer referring to this as the "schulte dimension"?
    Originally posted by SCI_OTR View Post
    The only way I can be confident that the experienced user is "actually going to get exactly what they want" is to sit down with them and go line by line through the entire order form (just like anyone else I see). At some point, we will roll their current chair up against a wall so that the footrest is touching, and measure the distance from the wall to the front of the back post near the hinge. I then request a CAD drawing with specific instructions to include in the drawing the distance from the front of the back post to the front of the footrest. In the past, I have referred to this as the "Schulte Dimension".

    Since my New Years resolution is to persuade every custom wheelchair manufacturer who provides a CAD drawing to include it as a standard spec, I've elected re-name it Occupied Frame Length (OFL).
    see this post for more about "OFL" from SCI_OTR, who coined the term "Schulte Dimension" after he had a conversation with Mr Schulte from Invacare. I sense OFL is a more generic term, thus more acceptable to all manufacturers.
    Chas
    TiLite TR3
    Dual-Axle TR3 with RioMobility DragonFly
    I am a person with mild/moderate hexaparesis (impaired movement in 4 limbs, head, & torso) caused by RRMS w/TM C7&T7 incomplete.

    "I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but what I don't think you realize is that what you heard is not what I meant."
    <
    UNKNOWN AUTHOR>

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      #17
      Originally posted by chasmengr View Post
      see this post for more about "OFL" from SCI_OTR, who coined the term "Schulte Dimension" after he had a conversation with Mr Schulte from Invacare. I sense OFL is a more generic term, thus more acceptable to all manufacturers.
      That's what I'm hoping for. If this dimension can gain a broader acceptance among end users and professionals who are involved in wheelchair prescription, it has the potential to change how even the less-custom rigid frames are spec'd.

      Did you know that TiLite already includes the OFL on their order form for their least custom rigid frame? Apparently, neither do they!



      Any rigid frame has an OFL, and an individual CAD drawing is not necessarily mandatory if manufacturers were to provide that information. Sure, a "generic" OFL will not be as accurate as an OFL in a CAD (especially lower frame angles with long seat-to-footrest measurements), but this information would still be helpful to determine the optimal frame angle and whether a traditional or "performance" frame would work best for the person.



      One of the main applications of OFL is to determine the space that is required in order for an individual to fit in a chair with their hips and knees at optimal angles. If the ideal seat depth, seat angle, and OFL are all known, choosing the best route that the frame tubing should take to get to the footrest is simply a matter of choosing the best frame angle/frame length combination.


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        #18
        Originally posted by jschism View Post
        are we no longer referring to this as the "schulte dimension"?
        I preferred "Schulte" -- i could remmber that. Who needs more acronyms cluttering up their brain? Oh well.
        stephen@bike-on.com

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          #19
          Originally posted by stephen212 View Post
          I preferred "Schulte" -- i could remmber that. Who needs more acronyms cluttering up their brain? Oh well.
          Well, if you would have requested it in your CAD (or if Paul Schulte actually included it in TopEnd's CAD drawings), maybe we could have put it to a vote!

          I will agree that it doesn't have the same ring to it, but for those who prescribe wheelchairs "Occupied Frame Length" makes more sense.

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            #20
            I like this measure and if it's not indicated on your CAD drawing you can still deduce it from measuring on the drawing and applying the scale.
            I did it for mine and it gives me more confidence in my specs as it is close to my current chair.
            My TR3

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              #21
              Originally posted by SCI_OTR View Post
              See related posts in the CareCure CAD Repository about Occupied Frame Length (front of back post to front of footrest). TiLite only provides it on request.

              https://www.carecure.net/forum/showp...8&postcount=60

              Thank you for the answer, now I understand that is different measurements.
              Just one question, does the ccforum have a skype or other type of audio software where people can talk over about this matters and other things.

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                #22
                Originally posted by SCI_OTR View Post
                Well, if you would have requested it in your CAD (or if Paul Schulte actually included it in TopEnd's CAD drawings), maybe we could have put it to a vote!

                I will agree that it doesn't have the same ring to it, but for those who prescribe wheelchairs "Occupied Frame Length" makes more sense.
                TiLite probably isn't too keen on crediting an Invacare employee with improving custom chair measurement.
                Last edited by SoCalSteve; 26 Dec 2012, 11:33 PM. Reason: sp

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by SCI_OTR View Post
                  stephen212 is correct in his assessment that even with a 4" COG and a 3.5" difference in STF heights, this TR3 is not tippy at all. Now, I'm not ready to guarantee that a TR3 in a "petertan configuration" with a 3.5" COG spec will not be tippy. However, I am beginning to think that the rear axle on a TR3 can be further forward than a ZR/ZRA and still have the same balance due of its distribution of mass. The COM for the frame itself is more forward and lower than a ZR/ZRA.

                  Keep in mind that the main determinant of Center of Mass will always be the how much of the user's weight is distributed on either side of the rear axle. Still, it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that differences in frame design could make a difference.
                  If that is the case, those moving from ZR/ZRA to TR3 will have to rethink their COG settings. There is a possibility, as you have discovered, that translating a cantilevered frame COG to the TR3 could make it heavy to the push.
                  C5-C6 ASIA C - October 15, 1984
                  Tilite ZRA Series 2
                  The DIGITAL AWAKENING
                  Living One Day At A Time
                  www.petertan.com/blog/

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by petertan View Post
                    If that is the case, those moving from ZR/ZRA to TR3 will have to rethink their COG settings. There is a possibility, as you have discovered, that translating a cantilevered frame COG to the TR3 could make it heavy to the push.
                    The issue has more to do with being able to get the curved rear frame instead of the square rear frame. There is always a risk that the minimal COG of 3.5" for the curved rear frame could be tippy, but if someone is running 3 to 3.5 on a ZR or ZRA they will probably be fine.I just can't say so with cetrtainty.

                    If a TR is more front heavy than expected, moving the rear axle forward requires little more than a 1/4" Allen wrench and loosening 2 socket head cap screws on each camber tube clamp.

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by petertan View Post
                      If that is the case, those moving from ZR/ZRA to TR3 will have to rethink their COG settings. There is a possibility, as you have discovered, that translating a cantilevered frame COG to the TR3 could make it heavy to the push.
                      as sciotr stated below, its easy to slide the tube forward for more tippy. i speced my tr2 exactly as my zr 2, yes it was a bit nose heavy but a quick adj fixed that.
                      with that said, imo, i see no reason not to spec similiar when going from zr to tr.
                      another cool thing about the rounded rear tr's , im not beating my car up near as bad.
                      Bike-on.com rep
                      John@bike-on.com
                      c4/5 inc funtioning c6. 28 yrs post.
                      sponsored handcycle racer

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by fuentejps View Post
                        as sciotr stated below, its easy to slide the tube forward for more tippy. i speced my tr2 exactly as my zr 2, yes it was a bit nose heavy but a quick adj fixed that.
                        with that said, imo, i see no reason not to spec similiar when going from zr to tr.
                        another cool thing about the rounded rear tr's , im not beating my car up near as bad.
                        I'm running 2" COG with my ZRA. It's stable but a backpack makes it slightly tippy. I don't think I can go 3.5" like you with a 4" dump. I guess I'll have to settle for somewhere between 2" to 2.5" COG for the TR3 and then work my way up. No rounded rear for me I'm afraid.
                        C5-C6 ASIA C - October 15, 1984
                        Tilite ZRA Series 2
                        The DIGITAL AWAKENING
                        Living One Day At A Time
                        www.petertan.com/blog/

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by petertan View Post
                          It's stable but a backpack makes it slightly tippy.

                          Have you thought of using TiLight front luggage bars?
                          Played with bombs- No SCI, Brain Damage enough that I require a chair and a caregiver.

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                            #28
                            My chair is pretty tippy as is, where if I give a hard push without leaning forward a bit (or start from a stable position without leaning forward a bit) the casters pop up. I don't usually carry anything on the back, if I do its a purse (just a canvas bag, could be used by men too) thats hung really low below the back and between the rear wheels. I only add that when I'm carrying more stuff, usually I just use a bike handlebar bag thats attached to the rigidizer below my seat. And when I have money I want to upgrade to http://www.adaptabledesigns.com/unwheelpac.html (both bags I use now I already had around when I got my chair)
                            Board Member of Assistance Dog Advocacy Project working in Education. Feel free to ask me any service dog questions!

                            I am not paralyzed. I have a genetic connective tissue disorder with neuro complications and a movement disorder.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by IsMaisin View Post
                              Have you thought of using TiLight front luggage bars?
                              My backpack is floppy and not wide enough to rest on the luggage carrier bars.
                              C5-C6 ASIA C - October 15, 1984
                              Tilite ZRA Series 2
                              The DIGITAL AWAKENING
                              Living One Day At A Time
                              www.petertan.com/blog/

                              Comment

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