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wheelchair measurements..round 2

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    wheelchair measurements..round 2

    Sorry about this being the second time asking for feedback on wheelchair measurements. I've really been putting off ordering a chair out of fear of getting something wrong. I've decided on a Ti Lite TR3 (I didn't make it in time for the TR). I know it's risky getting a highly custom fitted chair but I need a super durable chair that's all welded together with less chances of falling parts.

    So, after careful consideration, I've decided on the following:


    Frame Type:
    [TiLite TR Series 3 - 265 lb weight limit]
    Front Seat Height:
    [19"]
    Rear Seat Height:
    [15.5"]
    Seat Depth:
    [15"] 1+extra

    Center of Gravity:
    [1"]
    Front Angle:
    [85° (n/a w/6" Front Wheels)]
    Seat Width:
    [15"]
    Front Seat Width:
    [No Taper (2" Narrower than Rear Seat Width) - STD]
    Ergonomic Seat:
    None selected
    Seat to Footrest:
    [14"]
    Footrests:
    [Angle Adjustable Footrest - STD]
    Front End Type & Footrest Width:
    [V Front End - 10" Footrest Width]
    Seat Back Type:
    [TRSB1 Folding Aluminum Adjustable Height]
    TISHAFT Back Release Bars:
    [TRSB4 Titanium (n/a w/Non-Folding, Fixed Height Titanium Back)] [+$28.00]
    Push Handles:
    [TRSB8 Bolt-On Push Handles (Includes 4" Deep Backrest Rigidizer Bar. N/A w/Ti Back)] [+$140.00]
    Seat Back Height - Adjustable:
    [12" - 16.5"]
    Seat Back Height - Fixed:
    [16"]
    Backrest Options:
    [TRSB12 4" Deep Backrest Rigidizer Bar (n/a w/new Titanium Rounded Rigidizer Bar)]
    Seat Back Angle:
    [*** Folding Back ***]
    Rear Wheel Spacing:
    [1”]
    Camber:
    [2°]
    Camber Tube Type:
    [Titanium Camber Tube (n/a w/Power Adapatable Frame)] [+$40.00]
    Additional Camber Tube:
    None selected
    Frog Legs Rear Suspension:
    None selected
    Frame Finishes:
    [Satin - STD]
    Color Anodized Package:
    [Black - STD]
    Front Wheels:
    [5” x 1” Performance 5 Spoke Billet Aluminum Wheel w/Poly Tire - Silver Hub (n/a w/90º Front Angle L)] [+$116.00]
    Front Forks:
    [TRFK1 - TiLite Standard Fork - STD]
    Front Fork Options:
    None selected (WHY IS IT ASKING FOR FRONT FORK OPTIONS AFTER I SELECTED THE STANDARD FORK?)
    Rear Wheel Size:
    [24” (540)]
    Rear Wheel Type:
    [TRRW8 - Spinergy LX - Choose spoke color below (n/a w/20")] [+$716.00]
    Axles:
    [TRAXL1 - Stainless Quick Release - STD]
    Rear Wheel Tires:
    [TRRTR15 - 24” (540) & 25” (559) Treaded] [+$76.00]
    Handrims:
    [Plastic Coated – Black] [+$76.00]
    Handrim Mount:
    [Long Tab]
    Wheel Locks:
    [TRWLK10 - Compact Composite Push to Lock w/Extension Handles] [+$60.00]
    Upholstery Colors:
    [Black - STD]
    Back Upholstery:
    [TRBUP3 - Tension Adjustable by Straps (Required w/Fold-Down Push Handles)] [+$240.00]
    Seat Upholstery:
    [TRSUP2 - Tension Adjustable by Straps (Standard w/Ergonomic Seat & Front Seat Width (Seat Taper) of 1”, 2” or 3”. Black upholstery only)] [+$120.00]
    Seat Cushion:
    [3" Foam] [+$76.00]
    Side Guards:
    None selected
    Armrests:
    None selected
    Seat Belts:
    [TRBLT2 - Bodypoint 2” Push-Button Buckle (Auto-Style)] [+$68.00]
    Calf Strap:
    [TRCLF2 - Velcro Adjustable] [+$28.00]
    Anti-Tips:
    [TRTIP2 - User Friendly Rear Flip-up (n/a w/Frog Legs Rear Suspension)] [+$196.00]
    Neoprene Impact Guards w/Ultrasuede Stripe:
    None selected
    Shipping:
    [FREE Standard Ground Shipping within Continental US]
    Comments:


    The difference between the new measurements and those of my older Ti Lite TR are:
    90 degree front angle ----->85 degree with 1 inch extra
    Back angle 98 degrees----->95 degrees
    4 inch casters------->5 by 1 inch (no 5 by 1.5 inch aluminum wheels with poly available)
    rear seat height 16"------->rear seat height 15.5"

    I don't know if I have the dump right. When I tried out several seat cushions (that ranged from .5 to a full 1 inch thicker than my current cushion), I was extra wobbly and sitting too high up. Is increasing my dump by half an inch going to give me the stability I need?

    To stabilize my trunk to accomodate the thicker cushion, a therapist lowered my back by 2 inches but while I had better posture, my back kept wobbling backwards and I had a difficult time holding myself up when catheterizing. I have to convince my therapist that I'm better off with a higher back and reclined angle.

    But, I still haven't found the answer to matching my chair with my cushion. Is an increase in dump sufficient...If I increase the dump, I'll have to adjust the back angle too, right?

    Attached is my old Ti Lite TR and a few additional questions:
    -is the backrest at 98 degrees?
    -the front frame angle is at 90 degrees...if I go with a 85 degree with an extra 1 inch of frame, do I need to adjust my seat to footrest?
    -I wanted to play with adjustments on my newer Quickie GT to see what works best. I requested my rear seat height to be increased by 1 inch but was told that that would also require a change in caster size (from 4 inch to 3 inch). Does this sound right?

    Whew...I have so many questions..If any can be answered, I would appreciate it. Thanks!!

    #2
    forgot photo attachment..

    Comment


      #3
      I'd say if you have the dump set close to what you already have, and leave the back as folding, you should be okay. This way if you feel like you're being pushed forward you can adjust it to compensate.
      Just my opinion.
      Rollin' since '89. Complete C8

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by underthesun View Post
        Front Wheels:
        [5” x 1” Performance 5 Spoke Billet Aluminum Wheel w/Poly Tire - Silver Hub (n/a w/90º Front Angle L)] [+$116.00]
        Front Forks:
        [TRFK1 - TiLite Standard Fork - STD]
        Front Fork Options:
        None selected (WHY IS IT ASKING FOR FRONT FORK OPTIONS AFTER I SELECTED THE STANDARD FORK?)
        Sportaid, right?

        Front fork option asks do you want titanium fork STEMS – a wise option for bulletproof peace of mind.

        You stated you prefer 5x1.5 Billets. Don't settle for 5x1 Billets, order TiLite standard forks and 5x1.5 plastic whl/poly tire wheels @$64, have Sportaid special order FrogLeg 5x1.4" R6 aluminum soft rolls @ approx $83. They'll switch right out. Your other option would be aftermarket FL forks and wheels.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Crappler View Post
          I'd say if you have the dump set close to what you already have, and leave the back as folding, you should be okay. This way if you feel like you're being pushed forward you can adjust it to compensate.
          Just my opinion.
          Thanks Crappler! Yeah, the dump will only be increased by 1/2 an inch. The thing about dump on a TR is that it's fixed.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by nofuss View Post
            Sportaid, right?

            Front fork option asks do you want titanium fork STEMS – a wise option for bulletproof peace of mind.

            You stated you prefer 5x1.5 Billets. Don't settle for 5x1 Billets, order TiLite standard forks and 5x1.5 plastic whl/poly tire wheels @$64, have Sportaid special order FrogLeg 5x1.4" R6 aluminum soft rolls @ approx $83. They'll switch right out. Your other option would be aftermarket FL forks and wheels.
            Thanks nofuss! I'm ordering through Sportaid. I'll definitely follow your advice and go with titanium fork stems and the 5x1.5 wheels. I had no idea Froglegs can fit on a standard fork.

            Comment


              #7
              I'm actually having this very discussion with my colleagues at work and have some thoughts to share. Of course, in order to continue my discussion with them, that means I actually need to be at work. I will post some of my thoughts tonight.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by SCI_OTR View Post
                I'm actually having this very discussion with my colleagues at work and have some thoughts to share. Of course, in order to continue my discussion with them, that means I actually need to be at work. I will post some of my thoughts tonight.
                Thanks SCI_OTR! Any feedback will be appreciated!

                Comment


                  #9
                  I'm not positive of your injury level, but this ZRA2 represents one configuration which seems to work for some C5-6 users. It has ~4" of dump with a rear STF height of ~14.5", a seat angle 13-15 degrees, and a back angle of about 102-105 degrees. The back height is relatively tall (that is a 16" ADI back), and a COG spec that is fairly conservative. For sake of comparison, I'll refer to it as the high back/open angle/lean into the back configuration. In many ways it resembles your current set up.



                  Then there is this Razorblade that used to belong to a CareCure member who's configuration sounds closer to what your therapist wanted you to try (If you know the end user and his opinion of therapists, the irony of this is hilarious !). When you consider he is a taller user who sits in a Stimulite cushion that compresses minimally, the relative back height would be significantly lower for this user. The COG is slightly more aggressive, the rear STF height is similar, and the seat angle is roughly the same. I'll call this the medium back height/nearly 90 degree/over the top configuration...



                  Either set up might work for a C-6-ish quad without triceps. Both have rear STF heights in the 14.5-15" range and seat angles of 13-15.degrees. Both also allow the person to keep their head in a slightly posterior orientation. The combination of seat angle and posterior head orientation provide trunk stability and reduce the tendency to jackknife forward when pushing the chair.

                  Both setups allow the front of the chair to be reasonably light. The effective COG of the high back/open angle chair is father back that the spec'd COG. It relies on a supportive high back for this to work. Too low a back or too much sag in the upholstery and one could be back on the anti-tips or staring at the ceiling quickly. This is a good application of the 16" ADI CF back for this very reason. If the higher rigid back is not reclined enough, however, the user feels like they will jacknife forward.

                  The low back/near 90/over the top approach allows the rear axle to be moved forward to keep the front of the chair light. The back provides support to the pelvis and bottom few ribs to block the pelvis, but the user probably leans slightly over the top of the upholstery to keep their head back. If the back is too high or too rigid at this angle the user might jackknife forward.

                  As I said either setup can work. While a 105 degree back angle sounds extreme, in reality, it is equal to the seat angle (i.e. the ZRA2's back posts are perpendicular to the seat rail). In essence it is taking a seating system that provides 90/90/90 positioning and rotating it in space ~15 degrees.

                  Each configuration has its advantages. Todd Hargroder from ADI uses a setup similar to the ZRA2. fuente can tell you a thing or two about the Razorblade.

                  The key to efficiency is to have the right handrim access and the necessary trunk stability to use the muscles that are strong enough for efficient quad self-propulsion. Either setup can do that, so the deciding factor may be the specific methods you have found work best in order to perform other functional tasks.

                  Your therapist shouldn't need to be convinced of anything since it looks like you are paying of of pocket. Maybe additional discussion may bring about consensus. It is your therapist's responsibility to ensure your are aware of any adverse effects that your current setup might have over the long haul, but they should also be ensuring that you can use the chair efficiently and do what you need to be able to do on a daily basis. At the end of the day, however, it will be your chair and you need to be able to function in it. The ultimate decision is yours.
                  Last edited by SCI_OTR; 30 Aug 2012, 7:47 AM.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I'd also recommend trying Q grip hand rims instead of plastic coated.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I should add that with the "over the top" configuration, the user's scapulae must be clear of the top of the backrest, and it isn't an extreme position. The user is not leaning way over the top--just by a slight amount.

                      With the "lean into the back" configuration, the back is high enough to support the scapulae. While a back angle exceeding 100 degrees sounds extreme, it really isn't. For example, if a quad was using the same seat and back angles on their powerchair and not a rigid frame manual wheelchair, I doubt many therapists would notice. The seat-to-back angle is ~90 degrees and driving around in a powerchair with the seat tilted 15 degrees would hardly be considered unusual.

                      While the rear axle locations are different, both chairs will have roughly the same center of mass because of the positioning of the person's body in the chair.

                      Hopefully, the points I have made can help explain why what you have been using works for you as well as why the configuration your therapist is suggesting also works for others. It should also illustrate that for C5-6 ish manual chair users, there will never be one configuration that works for everybody. Everyone discovers their own way of being able to do things, and there are many idiosyncratic differences.
                      Last edited by SCI_OTR; 30 Aug 2012, 7:45 AM.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Seriously, the time people waste by not just getting an Icon, and TRYING the different theoretical seating positions.

                        I bet that in the time taken to write all of these musings, I could have done three fittings.

                        Icon Fits.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by JeffAdams View Post
                          Seriously, the time people waste by not just getting an Icon, and TRYING the different theoretical seating positions.

                          I bet that in the time taken to write all of these musings, I could have done three fittings.

                          Icon Fits.
                          Unfortunately my insurance will not deal with anyone other than specific DMEs...and as of now my DME does not deal with Icons. I am sure others fall into this category too...so these musings are definitely needed and important.
                          "Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot nothing's going to get better. It's not." - Dr. Seuss

                          Comment


                            #14
                            My comment was a bit tongue in cheek, but we agree with each other entirely.

                            First off, we will sell to any DME. We're in the same ballpark as the other premium offerings in the industry, and we give the usual industry discounts, so if the DME is telling you that they don't "deal" with Icon, let me know, and I'll sort it out with them. We've seen this with a few DME's who seem to be uncomfortable with the lineups they currently have, and don't want to introduce new products - they say that they're not Icon dealers, and therefore can't sell the product. Becoming an Icon dealer is about as easy as a phone call - the only thing we insist on is that the dealer have the ability to provide service and repairs - if they come to us on the recommendation of a user who wants to buy an Icon through them, that's enough endorsement for me.

                            Going back to the topic:

                            Musing about the configuration of a chair is incredibly important, and I was wrong to joke about it - I take the way a wheelchair fits very seriously. My point was that people spend dozens of hours trying to figure out the various measurements before they order the chair, because they have to with non-adjustable chairs or chairs with limited adjustability, and honestly, it seems like wasted time to me because there is a better option.

                            There's a saying - you can either pay now, or you can pay later, but you're going to pay.

                            With traditional chairs, you pay now, but you also might pay later. You pay on the front end, with the time you spend, and you might also pay later if you get any of the measurements wrong, or if anything changes.

                            With the Icon, the investment of time comes after delivery, and it comes with an insurance policy of sorts.

                            After delivery, a number of hours will have to be spent making adjustments. The key to the Icon though, is that the risk of the chair ultimately not fitting, or not being able to be adjusted is very, very low. So the investment of time (and money) is secured by the adjustability of the Icon.

                            It's still a relatively small sample size, but we have a success rate that's very close to 100% on getting chairs to fit. (four chairs have come back to us because people couldn't adjust them to their satisfaction, which puts us at just above 98% in our success rate, and three of those chairs went to people who didn't have on-site dealer support to help them make the adjustments).

                            So people - wheelchair users, clinicians and vendors spend an enormous amount of time trying to think of every single variable and picture every single iteration, but until they get the chair, they don't know in a real way whether or not it's going to work. If it doesn't work, if they forgot some variable, got something wrong, or if their personal situation changes, there is a real risk that the chair won't work.

                            So as you work through the numbers, ask yourself if you're a little more than 98% sure that the chair you buy will fit (and continue to fit for years to come).

                            Icon Fits.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by JeffAdams View Post
                              I bet that in the time taken to write all of these musings, I could have done three fittings.
                              In the same amount of time, I may have been able to get specs for maybe one C5-7 quad--regardless of the model of chair being spec'd. Models with fixed STF heights aside, the adjustments required to replicate the two configurations I discussed would involve roughly the same time and complexity to complete on either an Icon or any other adjustable rigid frame model.

                              I spend most of my seating assessment trying to understand what characteristics a particular individual needs in their chair to not only get from point A to point B efficiently, but be able to transfer, get dressed, and do everything else they need to do in the course of their day. When it is a cervical injury and triceps & finger function are limited, each individual figures out their own way to do what needs to be done using the function they have.

                              Even though I spent 6 months going through "C6-7 quad rehab" before emerging from spinal shock and recovering enough function to walk much of the time, I never assume I know what this group of end users need. They know how they do things better than I do. If I don't take the time to take those types of things into account, I will not understand what they need in their next chair.

                              For example, most people have no idea how much thought went into this TDX SP. It has a basic Motion Concepts UltraLow tilt system and numerous relatively inexpensiive custom modifications. While it may not be a particularly expensive or complex looking powerchair, it is unlike any other powerchair I have ever done. While it's user has no triceps and limited wrist extension, the little things that make this chair unique allow him to live by himself, transfer in and out of bed, get dressed, and drive a modified van. To put it another way, if that chair wasn't configured exactly as it is, he would lose much of his independence.

                              My musings throughout this thread were shared to assist those having a similar level of injury who are on the margin of being able to self-propel an ultralight rigid frame. C5-6 ish quads vary significantly in their function, and it is relatively recently that I've identified the two configurations I['ve discussed. Much of what I have learned has come from the experiences of others who have posted in this forum over the past 6 years. In fact, I've gained more insight with this particular group from CareCure than I have from my own professional experience at work.

                              Quite honestly, with the specific group that I am referring to in this thread, an Icon will probably not be the best choice. I don't intend for that to come across as "anti-Icon" or confrontational in any way. It's just that those who rely on idiosyncratic techniques they have perfected during their experience with prevous chairs who need things to be configured in a very specific way to be able to function may not be the best group of early adopters for a significantly different design.
                              Last edited by SCI_OTR; 30 Aug 2012, 8:15 PM.

                              Comment

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