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  • Help with order form

    So, I think im going to finally purchase a ZR TiLITE. I had measurements done but I dont know how they correspond to the measurements on the order form. Here is what I have so far. Any help is appreciated

  • #2
    What is your injury level? (How much trunk control do you have? How much back support do you need/want?) Do you stand to transfer? Can you walk at all? What's the compressed thickness of your cushion? What chair are you using now? That's all required, too.

    BTW, your H=12 measurement seems odd to me considering your other measurements.
    Last edited by chasmengr; 07-10-2012, 12:02 AM.
    Chas
    TiLite TR3
    Dual-Axle TR3 with RioMobility DragonFly
    I am a person with mild/moderate hexaparesis (impaired movement in 4 limbs, head, & torso) caused by RRMS w/TM C7&T7 incomplete.

    "I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but what I don't think you realize is that what you heard is not what I meant."
    <
    UNKNOWN AUTHOR>

    Comment


    • #3
      Is H supposed to be the height to the bottom of your scapula? If so, the diagram is poorly drawn, and the 12" seems correct.
      Chas
      TiLite TR3
      Dual-Axle TR3 with RioMobility DragonFly
      I am a person with mild/moderate hexaparesis (impaired movement in 4 limbs, head, & torso) caused by RRMS w/TM C7&T7 incomplete.

      "I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but what I don't think you realize is that what you heard is not what I meant."
      <
      UNKNOWN AUTHOR>

      Comment


      • #4
        by the measurements, you must be fairly long legged and a little wide(big nad tall)? If not, those measurements might as well be thrown away. The order form explains making measurements pretty well if you have someone to help.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by chasmengr View Post
          What is your injury level? (How much trunk control do you have? How much back support do you need/want?) Do you stand to transfer? Can you walk at all? What's the compressed thickness of your cushion? What chair are you using now? That's all required, too.

          BTW, your H=12 measurement seems odd to me considering your other measurements.
          Im a T-12. Right now im using a Quickie HP. The size of the chair is OK, but I cant fold it up myself (too heavy) and its pretty old..around 8 years. I dont know the exact thickness of my cushion but its a standard Jay-2 gel cushion (20x18).

          Comment


          • #6
            NOTE: I am an amateur at sizing wheelchairs, so consider my recommendations accordingly. Other readers, please correct me where I've erred.

            First, remember the ZR has very limited adjustability. The TR has slightly more (i.e., COG adjustment range is larger). And the ZRA has adjustable COG and RSH (accompanied necessarily with caster-angle adjustment). Are you confident you want a ZR?

            That said . . .

            So you have good trunk strength, yes? and you neither walk nor stand to transfer?

            Ga=19 corresponds to seat width. If you like snug fitting with side guards, a 19" seat width would do. If you like a little room for heavier cloths and still use sideguards, a 20" wide seat would do. If you don't want sideguards, a 21" wide seat may be needed, but the ZR isn't available with a 21" wide seat, so I recommend sideguards with either a 19" or 20" wide seat depending on your preference.

            (Just noting: E, F, and Ga are pretty close, so a backrest the same width as your seat is appropriate.)

            Cr&l=20 corresponds to seat depth. Most users like a 2" gap between the back of their legs and the seat, so we'll tentatively say your seat depth is 18 - final seat depth may need to be shortened depending on your front angle and seat slope (FSH-RSH).

            Dr&l=17 corresponds to FSH, front angle, and distance from seat to footrest. Since you don't stand, you don't need a flipback footrest (which needs more attention to FSH measurement than other styles). So, presuming your footrest will be parallel with the ground (3/4" structural depth and 2" ground clearance), your cushion is 2" thick compressed, and you'll be using a fabric seat sling (+0.5 versus +0 for a solid seat pan), you'll need a FSH of about 17+2.75-2+0.5= 18.75 for a 90-degree front angle. But few users like a 90 front end, so let's pick 80 degrees (my guess). So I'd suggest 18.5" FSH. Seat to footrest = 17-2 (cushion thickness) = 15.

            What kind of backrest will you get: fabric or solid? For fabric, I'd suggest the initial height reach to just below your scapula (presumed H dimension corresponds). So 12+2 (cushion thickness) = 14" fabric backrest height. (Picking a solid backrest is more involved.)

            Your measurements don't include arm length - we'll need that to determine your RSH. What's the distance from the top of your shoulders to the tip of your middle finger with your arms gently hanging and your hands gently open?


            Tentative recap so far:

            seat width = 20"?
            seat depth = 18"?
            front angle = 80 degrees?
            FSH = 18.5"?
            seat to footrest = 15"

            RSH is yet to be determined (as are a few other items like footrest width, wheel and caster sizes, etc.).

            Am I presuming correctly that you use your chair inside and outside your home in a generally urban environment?
            Chas
            TiLite TR3
            Dual-Axle TR3 with RioMobility DragonFly
            I am a person with mild/moderate hexaparesis (impaired movement in 4 limbs, head, & torso) caused by RRMS w/TM C7&T7 incomplete.

            "I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but what I don't think you realize is that what you heard is not what I meant."
            <
            UNKNOWN AUTHOR>

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by chasmengr View Post
              NOTE: I am an amateur at sizing wheelchairs, so consider my recommendations accordingly. Other readers, please correct me where I've erred.

              First, remember the ZR has very limited adjustability. The TR has slightly more (i.e., COG adjustment range is larger). And the ZRA has adjustable COG and RSH (accompanied necessarily with caster-angle adjustment). Are you confident you want a ZR?

              That said . . .

              So you have good trunk strength, yes? and you neither walk nor stand to transfer?

              Ga=19 corresponds to seat width. If you like snug fitting with side guards, a 19" seat width would do. If you like a little room for heavier cloths and still use sideguards, a 20" wide seat would do. If you don't want sideguards, a 21" wide seat may be needed, but the ZR isn't available with a 21" wide seat, so I recommend sideguards with either a 19" or 20" wide seat depending on your preference.

              (Just noting: E, F, and Ga are pretty close, so a backrest the same width as your seat is appropriate.)

              Cr&l=20 corresponds to seat depth. Most users like a 2" gap between the back of their legs and the seat, so we'll tentatively say your seat depth is 18 - final seat depth may need to be shortened depending on your front angle and seat slope (FSH-RSH).

              Dr&l=17 corresponds to FSH, front angle, and distance from seat to footrest. Since you don't stand, you don't need a flipback footrest (which needs more attention to FSH measurement than other styles). So, presuming your footrest will be parallel with the ground (3/4" structural depth and 2" ground clearance), your cushion is 2" thick compressed, and you'll be using a fabric seat sling (+0.5 versus +0 for a solid seat pan), you'll need a FSH of about 17+2.75-2+0.5= 18.75 for a 90-degree front angle. But few users like a 90 front end, so let's pick 80 degrees (my guess). So I'd suggest 18.5" FSH. Seat to footrest = 17-2 (cushion thickness) = 15.

              What kind of backrest will you get: fabric or solid? For fabric, I'd suggest the initial height reach to just below your scapula (presumed H dimension corresponds). So 12+2 (cushion thickness) = 14" fabric backrest height. (Picking a solid backrest is more involved.)

              Your measurements don't include arm length - we'll need that to determine your RSH. What's the distance from the top of your shoulders to the tip of your middle finger with your arms gently hanging and your hands gently open?


              Tentative recap so far:

              seat width = 20"?
              seat depth = 18"?
              front angle = 80 degrees?
              FSH = 18.5"?
              seat to footrest = 15"

              RSH is yet to be determined (as are a few other items like footrest width, wheel and caster sizes, etc.).

              Am I presuming correctly that you use your chair inside and outside your home in a generally urban environment?
              Hey chas thanks for your help. I got a quote on a ZRA and my measurements are listed below. What do you think of the front frame angles? This is the part I was confused about since they were not included in my original measurements. My current chair has a 70 degree angle and my legs flare out all the time. What do you think of this package overall?
              Base Price - $2,050.00
              (Special Packages) SuperLite Edition - $550.00
              (Frame Finish) Black Lava Matte
              (Frame Style) Standard, 265 lbs. Weight Capacity
              (Front Angle) 80º
              (Front Seat Width) No Taper
              (Front Seat Height) 19"
              (Rear Seat Height) 18"
              (Color Anodize Package) Black (Standard)
              (Rear Seat Width) 19"
              (Center Gravity) 1"
              (Seat Back Angle) 92°
              (Seat Depth) 18"
              (Seat Upholstery) Tension Adjustable Bolt On
              (Upholstery Color) Black
              (Back Height) Short 8.5"- 11.5"
              (Back Type) SuperLite Edition- Folding Titanium Adjustable Height (Save $175)
              (Tishaft Back) Superlite Edition - Carbon Fiber TiShaft (Save $65)
              (Back Accessories) 4" Deep Backrest Rigidizer Bar
              (Back Upholstery) Tension Adjustable by Straps - $148.75
              (Clothing Guards/Side Panels) Aluminum- Rigid- Standard - $148.75
              (Footrest Width) 16.5"
              (Footrest Options) Standard Front End
              (Footrest Length) Standard 17"
              (Impact Guard) Black, Neoprene w/Ultrasuede Stripe - $76.50
              (Footplate Options) SuperLite/Active Edition Titanium w/ Flat ABS Cover (Save $150)
              (Rear Wheels) 25" TiLite SHADOW
              (Rear Wheel Spacing) 1"
              (Tires) 25" Primo Treaded
              (Axles) Stainless Quick Release
              (Camber Angle) 2°
              (Camber Tube) SuperLite Edition- Carbon Fiber (Save $175)
              (Additional Spacers) Additional Spacers
              (Handrim) Aluminum-Silver Anodized
              (Tabs) Long
              (Casters) 5" x 1" Performance 5 Spoke Billet w/Poly Tire w/Black Hub - $123.25
              (Caster Forks) SuperLite Edition- TiLite Slipstream Single Sided (Save $150)
              (Fork Stems) SuperLite Edition - Titanium Fork Stems (Save $50.00)
              (Wheel Locks) Composite Push to Lock
              (Calf Straps) Velcro Adjustable; Xtra Large (18"-20" Seat Widths) - $29.75
              (Packs & Pouches) Seat Pouch- Large - $38.25

              Comment


              • #8
                19" seem opretty wide. I'm 6'2" and around 220 I use a 17" wide chair. Seat upholstery: Have you thought about a rigid seatpan vs. the bolt on seat sling. It's going to stretch and with a bolt on they are more difficult to tighten back up. A solid deatpan gives a good seating platform and better posture.

                Sounds like you are a heavy guy with short legs or use a very tall cushion with the front frame height at 19" and 19" width. Just asking. The object is to get a good tight fit in the chair so there's no sliding to one side which could end up with a form of scolliosis. Perhaps a T/12 doesn't need to be concerned with that.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Patrick Madsen View Post
                  19" seem opretty wide. I'm 6'2" and around 220 I use a 17" wide chair. Seat upholstery: Have you thought about a rigid seatpan vs. the bolt on seat sling. It's going to stretch and with a bolt on they are more difficult to tighten back up. A solid deatpan gives a good seating platform and better posture.

                  Sounds like you are a heavy guy with short legs or use a very tall cushion with the front frame height at 19" and 19" width. Just asking. The object is to get a good tight fit in the chair so there's no sliding to one side which could end up with a form of scolliosis. Perhaps a T/12 doesn't need to be concerned with that.
                  I am around 190 and 5'7. I use a Jay-2 gel cushion (history of skin breakdown) which is around 2.5 inch thick. I feel that my posture has suffered because of this seat (although it could be from the seat pan like you mentioned earlier.) If I get a rigid seat pan, how much more weight will it add and how much more difficult will it be transfering it into a car?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    what do you mean by your legs flaring out?

                    having a tighter front end is very useful. For your legs to be out further you can substitute a +1 on the frame length for a more forward angle, which also has the plus of being a more stable chair less prone to flipping forward. I have a 75 degree front due to knee issues, and if I had known I would have gone 85 degree front and +1 inch frame instead to get the footplate in the same place. I have an angle and placement adjustable footplate as well, I see you're getting the tubular footrest with cover so I think the +1 and tighter front may serve you even better. Or, just the tighter front and forget the +1 since I'm not sure what your exact needs are from the term flare
                    Board Member of Assistance Dog Advocacy Project working in Education. Feel free to ask me any service dog questions!

                    I am not paralyzed. I have a genetic connective tissue disorder with neuro complications and a movement disorder.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Whoa! Let's slow things down a bit.

                      I do this for a living and in the 6 years I have been posting here, not once have I rattled off specs based on anthropomorphic measurements alone.

                      The only thing the measurements on that diagram will allow you to spec accurately is a chair in your dining room. Unless you sit 90/90/90 (and nobody does), measurements alone have no meaning. In fact, I don't even know what my own measurements are.

                      I would start by determining the specs of your current chair, decide what should be different, and go from there.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SCI_OTR View Post
                        Whoa! Let's slow things down a bit.

                        I do this for a living and in the 6 years I have been posting here, not once have I rattled off specs based on anthropomorphic measurements alone.

                        The only thing the measurements on that diagram will allow you to spec accurately is a chair in your dining room. Unless you sit 90/90/90 (and nobody does), measurements alone have no meaning. In fact, I don't even know what my own measurements are.

                        I would start by determining the specs of your current chair, decide what should be different, and go from there.
                        My current chair doesn't have too many specs available..I attached all the information I could find from sunrisemedical.

                        I use a Jay-2 gel cushion and a Jay-2 hard back which I do not like. Im looking into a shorter soft back. Also as mentioned above I might get a rigid seatplate as well. It says my chair has a 70 degree Frame Angle.

                        The 2 main problems I have with my chair is the Center of Gravity and the issue where my legs are not resting correctly on the footrest (they have too much room so they slide off and I have to adjust them every few minutes)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          SCI_OTR is the pro here. Heed his advice.

                          Don't be in a hurry to order a chair. It's a long term investment, and takes multiple passes at measurements to fine tune them before you order.

                          I spent many years in construction (measuring, cutting, assembling) and then (after graduating from college) spent many more years as a consulting engineer (preparing documents from which others measured, cut, assembled). I forget sometimes how many subtleties go in to making something fit and work properly because they come so easy for me. My responses are not casual, but very thought out and cautiously offered. Please don't jump ahead, and presume I'm done sizing before I absolutely have finished. I have lots more questions.

                          That said . . .

                          At 5'7" and 190#, your seat width (Ga=19) does seem wide. I'm 5'8" and 205, and my seat is plenty wide at 17; I'm considering getting 16 on my next chair. Are you sure those measurements are 'you' and not what the tech thought you needed.? Old-school techs add 2" to your actual width cuz that's what they were taught, but an added 2" is detrimental. But, if that's you, then it's fine.

                          After examining your measurements again, I noticed we are very differently proportioned although about the same height. My experience includes only specifying my own chair, which I did by measuring myself. I have short legs and a long torso; you have long legs and a short torso. MY C+D=33; my A=35 for a height of 68". Your C+D=37; A=29.5 for a height of 66.5". I wear a 32-33" dress sleeve. Not knowing your arm length, I have no clue what your RSH should be unless you provide some more measurements.
                          Chas
                          TiLite TR3
                          Dual-Axle TR3 with RioMobility DragonFly
                          I am a person with mild/moderate hexaparesis (impaired movement in 4 limbs, head, & torso) caused by RRMS w/TM C7&T7 incomplete.

                          "I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but what I don't think you realize is that what you heard is not what I meant."
                          <
                          UNKNOWN AUTHOR>

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            PS: I am glad you are considering an adjustable chair (i.e., ZRA).
                            Chas
                            TiLite TR3
                            Dual-Axle TR3 with RioMobility DragonFly
                            I am a person with mild/moderate hexaparesis (impaired movement in 4 limbs, head, & torso) caused by RRMS w/TM C7&T7 incomplete.

                            "I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but what I don't think you realize is that what you heard is not what I meant."
                            <
                            UNKNOWN AUTHOR>

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              After even further inspection of your measurements, I am curious.

                              Comparing E=20 and F=18, are your upper arms actually only 1" thick? [(20-18)/2]. Maybe the techs measure much differently than I am expecting. That would add significant reinforcement to SCI_OTR's word of caution about exclusively using anthropomorphic measurements to size a chair.

                              One thing I learned in the construction field is, if one person is measuring and another is cutting, the two people must be thinking exactly the same or things won't fit. I had forgotten that - I assumed the tech who took your measurements took them the same way I would - that's a poor assumption, and gives even more support to SCI_OTR's caution (not to mention the impetus for an adjustable chair).
                              Chas
                              TiLite TR3
                              Dual-Axle TR3 with RioMobility DragonFly
                              I am a person with mild/moderate hexaparesis (impaired movement in 4 limbs, head, & torso) caused by RRMS w/TM C7&T7 incomplete.

                              "I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but what I don't think you realize is that what you heard is not what I meant."
                              <
                              UNKNOWN AUTHOR>

                              Comment

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