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    #31
    Originally posted by t8burst View Post
    What is the advantage of a box over a cantilever? I am too lazy to find the picture of stephen212's frame but it just a lot less metal, welds and unless you weigh 400 pounds you can't tell me that you need the added structure the box gives you. A 170 pound person is not going to deflect a 1' titanium tube to any noticeable degree so why the extra struts connecting the front to the camber ties?
    Is not only what you weight, is what you do...and i like having a good frame under my arse.
    Stephen212`s frames is a minimalist nice frame for people who like L frames is perfect, but tilite could do a much better frame doing in it in box and it will be lighter, because the tubes they need to do the box frame could have less diameter and less wall tubing, so the result will be a better chair, more rigidity and lighter.

    But for been reading care cure i don`t feel any difference between cantilevers and box frames lol.

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      #32
      Originally posted by stephen212 View Post
      My 13-year-old son has begun to tool around in whichever chair I'm not currently using and has stated his preference for my Halls chair. The difference is obvious to him and he doesn't spend an iota of his time thinking about wheelchair design.

      I remember you this is just my hobbie, i don`t work for any company and anyone can waste his freetime in what they want, but anyway i just spend a few whiles of my time for that in exchange seating in a good chair without having to spend a bunch of dollars, because here in Spain we don`t have same luck as you, that insurence pay for superwheelchairs, here they give us a shit like the pic, so if some guy want a chair like yours or mines will have to take out of his pocket around $5000.
      So one of the things i thought for this chair is if a guy who dosen`t have much money an do an effort for buy the chair, he only will need to do it one time in his life, because the frame will last forever.
      If he start getting fat and the chair will become tight that is not my problem , but normaly active guys always have same seat widht.

      So i would be always seating in something like that, but i`m not, and without spending tones of money, so I will have had to do something well, don`t you think?

      But other brands have to pay comercial center desing for been thinking years for desing just a different fork and a bend armrest fork for their chairs, sure your son could do that too.
      Last edited by totoL1; 24 Jun 2012, 4:56 AM.

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        #33
        Originally posted by t8burst View Post
        What is the advantage of a box over a cantilever? ...and unless you weigh 400 pounds you can't tell me that you need the added structure the box gives you. A 170 pound person is not going to deflect a 1' titanium tube to any noticeable degree...

        You'd be surprised. I only had one cantilever-frame chair, and it was the last one I'll ever own. In my experience, box-frame chairs handle much better and are far more durable. While canti-frame chairs look cool and are much easier for manufacturers to crank out, they don't perform and handle anywhere near as well as a box-frame. I would GLADLY take any of the chairs pictured in this thread: Schmicking, Oracing, New Halls...

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          #34
          Originally posted by The_Wheel_Life View Post
          You'd be surprised. I only had one cantilever-frame chair, and it was the last one I'll ever own. In my experience, box-frame chairs handle much better and are far more durable. While canti-frame chairs look cool and are much easier for manufacturers to crank out, they don't perform and handle anywhere near as well as a box-frame. I would GLADLY take any of the chairs pictured in this thread: Schmicking, Oracing, New Halls...
          I don't even think an L frame is even good looking. The larger diameter tubing looks awkward too me. The cost of an L is should be cheaper just for the lack of welds and cuts needed.

          I've owned plenty of both. I'll take the box frame everytime from now on. I like the grip and looks of a smaller diameter tubing and the ability to put my brakes on the lower bar for ease of reach.

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            #35
            Originally posted by totoL1 View Post
            because here in Spain we don`t have same luck as you, that insurence pay for superwheelchairs, here they give us a shit like the pic, so if some guy want a chair like yours or mines will have to take out of his pocket around $5000.
            So one of the things i thought for this chair is if a guy who dosen`t have much money an do an effort for buy the chair, he only will need to do it one time in his life, because the frame will last forever.
            If he start getting fat and the chair will become tight that is not my problem , but normaly active guys always have same seat widht.

            So i would be always seating in something like that, but i`m not, and without spending tones of money, so I will have had to do something well, don`t you think?

            But other brands have to pay comercial center desing for been thinking years for desing just a different fork and a bend armrest fork for their chairs, sure your son could do that too.


            I couldn't think of anyone better to start up a frame building shop T. We all have watched you grow in your continual knowledge of what makes a great chair and shuddered watching you haul down steeps slopes with 3" casters.

            Quadra, Shadow, Quickie, Top End, Tilite all started with your same vision. I picked up my first Shadow chair from Jim Martinsons house. He built it in his garage. You seem to have that same drive.

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              #36
              Originally posted by Patrick Madsen View Post
              I don't even think an L frame is even good looking. The larger diameter tubing looks awkward too me. The cost of an L is should be cheaper just for the lack of welds and cuts needed.

              I've owned plenty of both. I'll take the box frame everytime from now on. I like the grip and looks of a smaller diameter tubing and the ability to put my brakes on the lower bar for ease of reach.
              My welder need from 8:30 morning until 6:30 for cut, bend and weld my frame.
              The other welder weld 2 L frames and started with the third in the same time.

              Originally posted by Patrick Madsen View Post
              Quadra, Shadow, Quickie, Top End, Tilite all started with your same vision. I picked up my first Shadow chair from Jim Martinsons house. He built it in his garage. You seem to have that same drive.
              I don`t think so.

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                #37
                Maybe you don't have their same drive but I was there and know these guys personally. It was to make a better chair at a better cost than the E&J's and Stainless.

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                  #38
                  Yes all those companies started out the same, some one had a passion for making better chairs than what was currently available. Then money happened and they decided they could make more by mass producing everything instead of sticking with slowly building quality custom chairs. Add to that list Colours, Marvel, Icon...etc. Mike Box became to big with colours and sold out, now he's making great chairs out of his garage again and they blow anything his old company made out of the water. We all know what happened to Marvel and we all hope we know what is going to happen with Icon.

                  There are people that innovate new designs because they aren't happy with what is available. If there wasn't we'd still be rolling around in those chairs with the giant front wheels, which speaking of what ever happened to that company that was making those a couple of years ago?
                  Most everything I say is

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                    #39
                    Amen Tex. What great days those were. Those guys probably got bought out by a larger company and the bigwheel was shelved like so many other designs do.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Adaptive equipment is a tough arena for people working independently. Trying to get FDA approval and insurance coverage is a huge hurdle in and of itself! The litigious nature of our country (U.S.A.) certainly doesn't make it easier for individuals to innovate. Add to that the exorbitant costs for the necessary tools needed to produce equipment from start to finish, and it quickly becomes a monumental investment of time and resources that very few people can do on their own. It's not surprising that so many of the guys that started the adaptive equipment revolution ended up selling their businesses to corporations. Individually, most of them were probably working 18-hour days and making $30K/year.

                      Nonetheless, there will always be individuals that come up with new ideas and solutions for adaptive equipment. Right around the time I start thinking that there isn't much room left for improvement, someone shows up with a brilliant design or product. Lots of them show up right here in the forum!

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                        #41
                        Originally posted by TexasWheelz View Post
                        Yes all those companies started out the same, some one had a passion for making better chairs than what was currently available. Then money happened and they decided they could make more by mass producing everything instead of sticking with slowly building quality custom chairs. ?
                        I assure you that will not happen with Oracing, some brand wanted to buy them time ago for a good money for take them out of the market, and they said NO, for Oracing boss the money is not the most important thing , he enjoy doing good chairs and always is looking for beat the quality, and the most important, he`s one of us, quad c6.
                        And now that they are Schmicking parthers sure the quality will go up a new step.
                        They are going to built some frames for Schmicking and went to Germany all Oracing team for see what, how and why things have to be done if they want to work for them.

                        At the moment this is the result, this handbike weld they did it after Schmicking factory visit, that is welded by a man, not by fucking robot in China, Taiwan, Korea, etc.
                        Last edited by totoL1; 25 Jun 2012, 4:42 AM.

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                          #42
                          They have fucking robots in china? I can't wait till those get to the states

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                            #43
                            Originally posted by totoL1 View Post
                            . . . that is welded by a man . . .
                            an artist
                            Chas
                            TiLite TR3
                            Dual-Axle TR3 with RioMobility DragonFly
                            I am a person with mild/moderate hexaparesis (impaired movement in 4 limbs, head, & torso) caused by RRMS w/TM C7&T7 incomplete.

                            "I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but what I don't think you realize is that what you heard is not what I meant."
                            <
                            UNKNOWN AUTHOR>

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                              #44
                              Did Roland weld that frame? I assume he's still working for Schmicking. He used to weld racing frames for Porsche. Also, in Taiwan, TIG welding is all done by hand. Simple MIG and tack welds can be done by robots, but things like bicycle frames are all welded by hand. Taiwan actually has a lot of good welders.

                              A lot of people talk about the actual weld puddle, but that is only one element of a properly welded joint. Fit-up of the joint BEFORE the welding process makes a big difference, too. Schmicking either machines all critical miters or has them laser cut by the same company that makes KTM motorcycle frames. Both methods result in very tight tolerances and clean fits that, in the end, make for a stronger weldment. Schmicking also utilizes post-weld heat-treatment for ALL of their aluminum equipment. If anything at all, most companies will only "artificially age" their stuff to take the induced stresses out of the weldment. The welding process causes aluminum to lose 30-50% of its tensile strength (near the welded joint), and proper heat-treating is the only way to get aluminum back up to its original tensile strength.

                              Anyway, it's great to see that Oracing is working with Schmicking. In my opinion, they are making the finest adaptive equipment in the world. Their stuff may not be fancy/flashy/pretty/trendy, but it is built to last a lifetime. I have two of their handcycles. One is eight years old while the other is four. Although they aren't the lightest or latest/greatest, they both still roll like the day that they were brand new. Their stuff may cost a little more, but you can expect it to last four times as long as something similar. I'd love to have one of their everyday chairs (esp. the New Halls knock-off.)

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                                #45
                                Originally posted by The_Wheel_Life View Post
                                Schmicking also utilizes post-weld heat-treatment for ALL of their aluminum equipment.
                                Did New Halls do this as well?
                                stephen@bike-on.com

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