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    #76
    Originally posted by ~Lin View Post
    The guidelines are that the dog must perform a minimum of two (some say 3, but taking the law literally 2 would count) tasks that specifically mitigate your disability. So what the tasks are depends on YOU. This is mostly important when it comes to how public access works which is the pwd has the access and not the dog. So a service dog when accompanied by anyone other than their disabled handler is not allowed access where pets are not allowed. For a real life example, a spouse could not go grocery shopping with their partners dog. Or a dog trained in mobility assistance and opening doors could not be considered a service dog when with an individual who has no problem opening doors. There are no maximum for what a dog can be taught, so a psychiatric sd could open doors too, but the tasks qualifying them as a SD have to be specific to mitigate their handlers disability.

    I've seen videos on YouTube for tasks, let me see if I can find the urls. In my experience and the places I've worked with clicker training is the easiest to teach service tasks. There is a book and dvd set called teamwork that helps owner trainers, teamwork I addresses obedience and basic training while teamwork II addresses service tasks. I have a list of some books too that I'll try to find! You also might be interested in joining the forums at service dog central and can ask any questions relating to service dogs.

    Edited to add: I personally am not a fan of the gentle leader head collar, I've seen dogs injure their necks struggling against them. As far as training collars go I prefer a properly used prong. Many trainers are afraid of prongs or do not know how to use them. Any training device is only a tool in the hands of the trainer, I'd rather a dog walk calmly on a prong then strangle themselves in a basic flat collar or injure their neck being yanked by a head collar.

    If you use a gentle leader or halti its important to get the dog used to it slowly so they do not fight against it. Also you cannot ever give a leash tug or pop as a correction because the force will turn the head sharply. That said, some dogs do very well and stop pulling with them. They are frequently used with service dogs since they give leverage which helps those with physical impairments have control of the dog if needed.

    I also work with GSDs, I have two currently with my sd Tessa and my recent wash out Emma. I'm Lin over at www.germanshepherds.com too if you're ever there

    WOW..thank you so much for the great feedback. I am a little confused as to what to do..my first trainer said use prong..and he is used to it ..ONLY when on walks which would prevent him from eating cats and pulling me out of chair.while still in training..BUT the NEW trainer IS all MAJOR anti the prong and wants to use the "gentle leader" which I would have to purchase. I just ordered a week ago a harness..from a service dog store..that a leash could be attached to and it has a handle I could grab too if I wanted a pull? It has a chest pad so the weight is distributed. sigh...I need to stick with one method and while I don't think he will need prong..probably doesn't now..as he is already pretty obedient...should I use the leader and the harness at same time?
    "The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same.” ~Carlos Castaneda

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      #77
      I'm not sure you can teach an old dog new tricks. Although Dingo keeps surprising me w/ his ninja skills. He got off the line and went across the road!


      He needs a Ninja Dog Certificate. Also Comfort When Crying.

      When I finally get out of here dog training will be part of my equation. Jill is currently fostering 5 pups, mama dog, 3 kittens plus her own herd. Her talent is being misused but she has to make a living. Somehow Dingo and I belong in that puzzle...
      Blog:
      Does This Wheelchair Make My Ass Look Fat?

      Comment


        #78
        Originally posted by sjean423 View Post
        Betheny, if your think about it, Dingo really IS a service dog in your case. Think about what he does for you ... done deal in this specific case. Not a case of claiming a pet is a service dog, but in calling your service dog a pet all these years.
        That is what I was trying to say.
        If you can't handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best.


        Sometimes it is easier to widen doors than it is to open minds.

        Comment


          #79
          Makes sense. We were at the Elbow Room downtown. I was already annoyed because they claimed they were accessible, yet there was a step at the entrance. They allow all dogs outside, but it was February....
          Originally posted by ~Lin View Post
          The ADA is about civil rights, and no state can take away civil rights that are granted federally. It's just that the statement federal law always trumps state law isn't true.

          There is a loophole so to speak in that all accommodation boils down to reasonable accommodation. This is why 2 SDs would usually be considered unreasonable. Modifying a historical building could be deemed unreasonable. Putting a ramp in front of a building flush with the Street could be deemed unreasonable, etc.

          The fire Marshall wouldn't have anything to do with it, but the business may have been using that as an excuse. In Indiana The law states that service dogs in training have t he same public access as service dogs when accompanied by a service dog trainer. However service dog trainer is not defined, and so would be up to the discretion of the judge. This could mean trainers from organizations, it could include owner trainers. When I was training I called places in advance and simply asked a manager if they allowed service dogs in training. I was never refused access, and when I showed up I had Tessa wearing patches identifying her as a service dog in training. Ironically once she was fully trained I started running into instances where people tried to deny us access, but so far none yet that wasn't taken care of by talking with the employee or a manager.
          If you can't handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best.


          Sometimes it is easier to widen doors than it is to open minds.

          Comment


            #80
            I understand what you guys are trying to say, but it's wrong. There is no such thing as a specific case where the advanced training isn't required of a service dog. If the housing is a concern, like I said all would be needed for her case is a Dr putting it into her records and writing a letter for the landlord for dingo to be an emotional support animal. There is no required training for that, but there IS for service dogs. And it doesn't matter how well behaved the dog is, they are not a service dog without the training and passing one off as such is wrong and illegal. In many states there are criminal laws where passing off a non service dog as one is charged as fraud. In all states someone passing off a non sd as one is open to lawsuits from businesses and landlords. Even legitimate handlers are at risk of a lawsuit, however a legitimate handler has nothing to fear about going to court. In court you have to prove that you meet the legal definition of disability and that your dog meets service dog definitions and requirements. This is where extensive training logs from the owner trainer are important, as well as demonstrating the dogs training such as tasks for the judge.

            Betheny, how old is dingo? It is harder the older the dog is because the best chance for success is with a dog that has been raised from the beginning to be a SD but not impossible. Another concern of an older dog is shortened working span in comparison to the length of time training. Training typically takes 2 years when you start with a puppy, but can be completed between one and two years for an adult dog. Tessa was nearly 4 when I started her service dog training, but I had done a lot of obedience work with her prior.

            Sherocksandsherolls, I personally would stick with the prong if that's what you've already used. A harness, especially one made for pulling, makes it easier to pull so I would not clip the lead to the harness until your dog can heel dependably offlead. This isn't a requirement, so otherwise I would keep the lead attached to whatever collar you use. If your dog is going to be pulling you then you can hold on to the handle on the harness or buy a longer clip on pulling handle. I use a hands free lead that I wear over my shoulder and clips to Tessa's collar and hold the harness for pulling or clip a loop to the harness to hold on to. How old is your dog? Have you gotten hip and elbow xrays yet?
            Board Member of Assistance Dog Advocacy Project working in Education. Feel free to ask me any service dog questions!

            I am not paralyzed. I have a genetic connective tissue disorder with neuro complications and a movement disorder.

            Comment


              #81
              Originally posted by ~Lin View Post
              it doesn't matter how well behaved the dog is, they are not a service dog without the training and passing one off as such is wrong and illegal.
              Sorry, you are the one wrong here. NO TRAINING OR CERTIFICATE IS REQUIRED, per 2008 ADA regulations.

              (KLD)
              The SCI-Nurses are advanced practice nurses specializing in SCI/D care. They are available to answer questions, provide education, and make suggestions which you should always discuss with your physician/primary health care provider before implementing. Medical diagnosis is not provided, nor do the SCI-Nurses provide nursing or medical care through their responses on the CareCure forums.

              Comment


                #82
                Originally posted by SCI-Nurse View Post
                Sorry, you are the one wrong here. NO TRAINING OR CERTIFICATE IS REQUIRED, per 2008 ADA regulations.

                (KLD)
                I think you're getting a bit confused here, as I have stated multiples times there is no certification required. However, there most definitely is training required and the new definition still reflects that. The change in definition of service animal was to reflect the ever increasing use of different types of animals being used as service animals and brought into public.

                As per the ADA reformation act of 2008 the definition of service animal, as linked in my previous posts, is the following
                Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities.* Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications, calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack, or performing other duties. Service animals are working animals, not pets. The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA.
                http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

                I've seen on other forums confusion over the terms work or tasks, and sometimes people have tried to take the phrasing to mean a dog does not need to be trained tasks. However the interpretation and use of the law is that work refers combination of tasks such as during guide work. The DOJ which handles ADA law says a minimum of two tasks is still required.
                Board Member of Assistance Dog Advocacy Project working in Education. Feel free to ask me any service dog questions!

                I am not paralyzed. I have a genetic connective tissue disorder with neuro complications and a movement disorder.

                Comment


                  #83
                  Again there is no certification needed here. Obviously training either done by ones self or an organization is necessary to meet the ADA. But, again that can be done by anyone-even the owner of the service dog. I have OCCASIONALLY written letters for patients as a last resort stating I am aware they use a service animal. But, I also make it VERY clear it is not a certification and not necessary. I have attached the basic form letter I use. However, this is not an open invitation to use this letter UNLESS your health care provider or therapist is willing to write it and drop on letterhead for you. If you are flying with your service animal I do believe the airline can and/will request a health certificate from your vet within 10-14 days depending on the airline
                  Disclaimer: Answers, suggestions, and/or comments do not constitute medical advice expressed or implied. Please consult your attending physician for medical advise and treatment. In the event of a medical emergency please call 911.

                  Comment


                    #84
                    Ok, perfect. Again..you have been such a great resource. Question re: 2 tasks, that Mitigate the actual owner's disability. I am not sure why one task that would mitigate would not be enough?..especially if it is life or death ...i.e. alarm dog. But advanced training makes sense as it would enable the public area to be maintained in a way where a dog is not interfering and is well behaved.

                    Originally posted by ~Lin View Post
                    I think you're getting a bit confused here, as I have stated multiples times there is no certification required. However, there most definitely is training required and the new definition still reflects that. The change in definition of service animal was to reflect the ever increasing use of different types of animals being used as service animals and brought into public.

                    As per the ADA reformation act of 2008 the definition of service animal, as linked in my previous posts, is the following
                    http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

                    I've seen on other forums confusion over the terms work or tasks, and sometimes people have tried to take the phrasing to mean a dog does not need to be trained tasks. However the interpretation and use of the law is that work refers combination of tasks such as during guide work. The DOJ which handles ADA law says a minimum of two tasks is still required.
                    Last edited by sherocksandsherolls; 25 Oct 2012, 4:31 PM.
                    "The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same.” ~Carlos Castaneda

                    Comment


                      #85
                      Originally posted by ~Lin View Post
                      Sherocksandsherolls, I personally would stick with the prong if that's what you've already used. A harness, especially one made for pulling, makes it easier to pull so I would not clip the lead to the harness until your dog can heel dependably offlead. This isn't a requirement, so otherwise I would keep the lead attached to whatever collar you use. If your dog is going to be pulling you then you can hold on to the handle on the harness or buy a longer clip on pulling handle. I use a hands free lead that I wear over my shoulder and clips to Tessa's collar and hold the harness for pulling or clip a loop to the harness to hold on to. How old is your dog? Have you gotten hip and elbow xrays yet?
                      Great suggestions, thanks for clearing that up! Yes the harness came with a handle, but it is short, so I will have to get a longer one..or I though as it has a o ring, on back of harness, I would just attach lead to this?

                      He is 3-5? Vet said not exact as he is a rescue. He had all xrays..and has no issues with hips, but did has slight arthritis starting in one "knee"..on the back leg..only on one. So we have to keep his weight down, give supplements and walk him every day. I have a dog walker every other day..and I just started being able to walk him alone myself and he is doing great and doesn't pull me out of chair or run when small dogs, etc are confronted. But I am very weak and I can;t go far..(low bp, spoiled, and lack of exercise etc) so I think he would benefit from a longer walk if he could pull me some...when I got tired.

                      He is amazingly calm. The first trainer said he thought he had been in training ..maybe even a police dog and was kicked out after due to non aggression. He is a big baby! But he picked up sooo fast..like in one lesson on all the basics..heel , sit stay. Took ,e only 2 times to teach him down..from my chair! and obviously I couldnt force him.so he must have known already.

                      I know this is a ADA service dog discussion but I couldn't help upload his photo..with is sister.
                      Last edited by SCI-Nurse; 28 Oct 2012, 5:44 PM. Reason: Right-size photo
                      "The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same.” ~Carlos Castaneda

                      Comment


                        #86
                        The age and arthritis already is a little concerning, you may not get a very long working life from him. Did the vet evaluate the xrays alone or were they sent to ofa or pennhip?

                        Service work is very physical straining, especially mobility assistance. I'm glad you got the xrays done already. Tessa is only 8 and already semi retired which I hadn't planned on. I'm a new wheelchair user though only since january and it's made Tessa's workload much lighter and I can go places without her now while alone which was impossible before. She badly broke her leg in a freak accident playing fetch in 2010. She twisted as she landed on an incline and it was the perfect storm. We re xrayed her opposite back leg at the time due to a cartilidge injury as a puppy to ensure everything was good to go to take the temporary extra stress, and also found very mild beginning arthritis. Since then I've noticed she gets a bit stiff in winter when extremely cold. She also developed kcs, chronic dry eye, and and is starting to have a little trouble seeing to find stuff during retrieves. The combination of this and Emma washing out means I'm going to have a long wait for my next full time service dog, possibly 2 years. It's also harder to find a rescue dog with what it takes to be a service dog, but not impossible and Tessa was a rescue too. Most dogs just don't have what it takes,even organizations with their own breeding programs have to wash out a lot of dogs. But if he doesn't make it he can always perform service tasks at home, and if he doesn't have a long working life you still will have learned so much.

                        The two tasks is just one of the ways to ensure the dog is trained and ready to be used in public as well as needed. One of the questions businesses CAN ask is what tasks your dog performs if you can not rattle off and demonstrate two tasks without thinking about it the dog has no business being in public access yet. For mobility some tasks would be pulling a wheelchair,retrieving items, opening a door, turning lights on or off, handing items to a cashier over a tall counter, providing counter balance, and so forth. Task training is the easiest part of service dog training. It's the advanced obedience and public access work that takes the most time.

                        Do you have him on any joint supplements? I recommend using human grade supplements as they're cheaper and pet ones frequently are too low of a dose to be therapeutic. 1500 glucosamine, 100 chondroitin, and 500 msm for a GSD. Omega 3s are also great for joint health and natural anti inflamatories. I buy extra strength fish oil, higher epa and dha, and Emma gets 2 a day and Tessa 4 because the kcs.

                        I'll share some photos of Tessa too

                        Board Member of Assistance Dog Advocacy Project working in Education. Feel free to ask me any service dog questions!

                        I am not paralyzed. I have a genetic connective tissue disorder with neuro complications and a movement disorder.

                        Comment


                          #87
                          It seems a bit much to have to have your dog perform their services on the businesses demand. I think I would rather go to an agency and prove things once and get some kind of documentation than to have to go around performing... but I would guess that you would not get asked often if the dog has a vest...

                          Comment


                            #88
                            Originally posted by djrolling View Post
                            It seems a bit much to have to have your dog perform their services on the businesses demand. I think I would rather go to an agency and prove things once and get some kind of documentation than to have to go around performing... but I would guess that you would not get asked often if the dog has a vest...
                            You do not have to perform tasks for a business, but be able to easily list some tasks your dog performs. You must be able to demonstrate the tasks for a judge as part of proving your dogs status as a service dog if you are suing someone or being sued (this include dating accomdation issues such as housing issues) I but personally I have no problem quickly demonstrating a task or two and it can be quicker in access issues than arguing and waiting for police or having a manager call the DOJ. I've never had an access issue yet where things weren't handled easily, knock on wood! Knowing as much as possible and educating others is the best defense for both the handler and business.

                            There currently are no such agencies and such. To implement such a thing would raise more problems than solve. How many testing centers would there be? I how frequently would testing happen? I do we pay for this from taxes, or make service dog handlers pay? I what about those who cannot afford the travel to such a place? I and so forth. This is why the current arrangement provides the most protection and civil rights to the disabled.
                            Board Member of Assistance Dog Advocacy Project working in Education. Feel free to ask me any service dog questions!

                            I am not paralyzed. I have a genetic connective tissue disorder with neuro complications and a movement disorder.

                            Comment


                              #89
                              Commonly asked questions about

                              COMMONLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT

                              SERVICE ANIMALS IN PLACES OF BUSINESS



                              1. Q: What are the laws that apply to my business?

                              A: Under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), privately owned businesses that serve the public, such as restaurants, hotels, retail stores, taxicabs, theaters, concert halls, and sports facilities, are prohibited from discriminating against individuals with disabilities. The ADA requires these businesses to allow people with disabilities to bring their service animals onto business premises in whatever areas customers are generally allowed.
                              2. Q: What is a service animal?

                              A: The ADA defines a service animal as any guide dog, signal dog, or other animal individually trained to provide assistance to an individual with a disability. If they meet this definition, animals are considered service animals under the ADA regardless of whether they have been licensed or certified by a state or local government.
                              Service animals perform some of the functions and tasks that the individual with a disability cannot perform for him or herself. Guide dogs are one type of service animal, used by some individuals who are blind. This is the type of service animal with which most people are familiar. But there are service animals that assist persons with other kinds of disabilities in their day-to-day activities. Some examples include:
                              _ Alerting persons with hearing impairments to sounds.

                              _ Pulling wheelchairs or carrying and picking up things for persons with mobility impairments.

                              _ Assisting persons with mobility impairments with balance.

                              A service animal is not a pet.
                              3. Q: How can I tell if an animal is really a service animal and not just a pet?

                              A: Some, but not all, service animals wear special collars and harnesses. Some, but not all, are licensed or certified and have identification papers. If you are not certain that an animal is a service animal, you may ask the person who has the animal if it is a service animal required because of a disability. However, an individual who is going to a restaurant or theater is not likely to be carrying documentation of his or her medical condition or disability. Therefore, such documentation generally may not be required as a condition for providing service to an individual accompanied by a service animal. Although a number of states have programs to certify service animals, you may not insist on proof of state certification before permitting the service animal to accompany the person with a disability.
                              4. Q: What must I do when an individual with a service animal comes to my business?

                              A: The service animal must be permitted to accompany the individual with a disability to all areas of the facility where customers are normally allowed to go. An individual with a service animal may not be segregated from other customers.

                              http://www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm
                              Gary Is = L-1 Para for 34 years.....................
                              ~~~~~~~~~~

                              Comment


                                #90
                                Originally posted by t8burst View Post
                                Well "sled dogs live for it" is somewhat up for debate. I think the iditarod is a celebration of animal cruelty. My concern for the dogs is not just the pulling (although if your dog is pulling you when you walk him you haven't trained him very well) is is mostly for their paws. Dogs aren't horses or donkeys with hoofs. Pulling on streets or sidewalks will put a lot of wear and tear on the pads. Like I said it is a personal opinion, if people did have a husky or other breed that was bred for pulling I might have a different view but most people have retrievers as service dogs. Even worse would be German Shepard or Dobies who would be great for opening doors of fetching things but with the weakness in their hips would be not suited for pulling.
                                I beg to differ. Whoever posted about how little effort and pressure it takes to pull is absolutely right. My German Shepherd LOVED to pull my chair, we went "zoom-zoom". Rarely did I have him pull up hills, except when younger on short ramps perhaps, and then I'd help. But on flat surfaces, especially with a very lightweight chair (and I'm not that heavy), it takes so little effort that he would hold his leash or a flexi strap line in his mouth while doing it. He could go miles and miles and never did I have issues with his pads. Plus, just because a dog is a German Shepherd, does NOT mean they have hip issues !! I get tired of hearing that from the public. Like it's a given. There's American lines, and German show and working lines. The working lines in particular are structurally amazing, and rarely have issues.
                                My dog and I were on the news about this once actually. He recently passed from cancer, just going on 3 months ago now I'm still deeply distraught, as he was my heart dog, and is my soul mate. But, I am getting a new GSD puppy come January, and he's actually being born any minute now. So I get to start all over again.
                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjfzE...9&feature=plcp

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