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  • #46
    This is probably a very stupid question, but I would be curious to hear input. When I first started looking for locks / disc brakes I just made an assumption that they would be like those used on mountain bikes with a rotor, caliper and brake pads, rather than engaging the spokes. Certainly companies like Spinergy make wheels/hubs for disc brakes in the mountain bike industry and I think they are also used on many handcycles. Can someone enlighten me why it's not possible on a wheelchair?
    Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by elarson View Post
      This is probably a very stupid question, but I would be curious to hear input. When I first started looking for locks / disc brakes I just made an assumption that they would be like those used on mountain bikes with a rotor, caliper and brake pads, rather than engaging the spokes. Certainly companies like Spinergy make wheels/hubs for disc brakes in the mountain bike industry and I think they are also used on many handcycles. Can someone enlighten me why it's not possible on a wheelchair?
      I was an avid cyclist, with over 10,000 miles on two and three wheels. I've built some wheels myself, and wrenched plenty of bikes.

      A wheelchair has two difficulties with disk brakes: the fact that we remove our wheels to the side, and the torsional rather than lateral stresses that disk brakes apply to the wheel.

      ADI uses a custom spline insert that replaces the inboard bearing of the hub. The disk is attached to this, and the spline allows the wheel to be removed downward instead of outward. It has to move down, away from the brake, because the two sides of the brake clamp around the disk to provide braking force. The spline rotates with the wheel and can be thought of as an extension of the camber tube. The outboard bearing ring allow the wheel to rotate around the axle.

      Bicycles with disk brakes have the advantage of already being removed downward away from the fork. Hubs for disk brake bicycles have one flange that is higher and drilled to accept the screws that hold the disk on.

      The closest analog in the biking world to a wheelchair is a trike. The two wheels across from each other are attached in a slightly different way. My trike has a hollow axle tube that fits inside the hub bearings and sticks out far enough to hold securely in the receiving tube of the trike frame. To remove the wheel, I first have to remove the inner axle that looks like a standard quick release bicycle axle. All this pard does is prevents the tubular axle from sliding out over time. Then I have to use a hammer to push the axle out of the wheel and into the receiving tube before I can drop the wheel downward out of the brake pads. You cant do that on a wheelchair because our axles slot into the camber tube and there is no way to push back from the other side.

      Wheelchairs almost always have their spokes laced in a radial pattern (spokes go strait out from the hub to the rim) This is not only the lightest possible pattern, but also has the highest resistance to lateral stress, the kind you would get if you had the bike tipped to one side. But it has the lowest resistance to the torsional stress that a disk brake applies. The stress from the brake to the rim is transmitted at a right angle and requires a heavy spoke to resist bending with the stress.

      The way bicycles handle this stress is by crossing the spokes (lacing) in different patterns so that the stress through the spokes is applied at an angle and allows some of the stress to be carried by the length of the spoke. By crossing the spokes in patterns of two, three, or four crossings of other spokes between the hub and rim the spokes in most patterns will physically touch another spoke, each providing a slight bend to the other in a different direction than the sheer force applied when braking. (ref: sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuildl )
      Played with bombs- No SCI, Brain Damage enough that I require a chair and a caregiver.

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      • #48
        Many thanks for the detailed explanation IsMaisin. I knew there had to be reasons, but just did not know what they were. I figured that quick release axles/camber tube might be the issue, but had not thought of the difference in torsion/twisting.

        I am familiar with lacing bicycle spokes, but I only did it once, rather poorly. I guess if torsion was the only issue, it could be overcome with a bit of added weight, but I suspect there is no way of getting around the axle/camber issue unless the wheels are fixed.

        Originally posted by IsMaisin View Post
        ...A wheelchair has two difficulties with disk brakes: the fact that we remove our wheels to the side, and the torsional rather than lateral stresses that disk brakes apply to the wheel....
        Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

        Comment


        • #49
          Installing D's Locks questions

          Hi All,

          I think I managed to get the D's Locks installed, and they are working great. My partner has hemiparesis and “neglects” (forgets about) the brakes on one side -- problem solved with D’s Locks! Although we have Spinergy LX’s with PBO spokes, we don’t find the “rocking” too concerning. They seem very solid.

          We had the lock rings and adaptors anodized black locally (turned out nice for about half the price that D's Locks quoted), but I forgot about the moon shaped pieces. Although I would have preferred them black like DaleB's on his Lasher (post #6), I would have then wanted to replace the 26 aluminum screws with black zinc (can't win!). Probably I am the only one this will bother.

          I have a few questions about installing the piston assembly and adaptor that I hope someone can help with.

          We have a ZRA2 with Spinergy LX wheels. The chair width is 16” with 1” wheel spacing and we also have anti-tips that occupy space on the camber tube. This means that the working space on the camber tube is very limited. As they say in real estate -- location, location, location!

          In the “D’s Locks Installation Instructions Camber Tube” it says:
          6. Set clearance between sleeve and Lock-ring to ¼ inch and tighten nut.
          On our chair this was not possible. There is no clearance if I put the locking nut on the outside of the adaptor (closest to the hub). I switched the locking nut to the inside of the adaptor and it appears that there is enough clearance for them to engage and it feels solid. I’m assuming that the locking nut can go on either side of the adaptor based on photo’s and posts I’ve read here about everything being interchangable.

          Question 1: What is considered to be the sleeve when measuring clearance? I assume it to be the top of where the threads start on the piston or the top of the locking nut if the locking nut is on the outside of the adaptor (closest to the hub).

          Question 2: Is something just above 1/8” enough clearance and are they secure enough? They seem to work well and there is enough clearance for the lock rings, and they engage well. Below are photo’s of the piston, adaptor with the lock engaged, 1) without the wheel to show the clearance, 2) with the wheel to show the clearance, 3) from an angle to show protrusion of the piston from the lock ring. (Click for larger images).



          Question 3: We plan to get a power add-on (ZX1) that will mount to the camber tube. I have already read that it is a tight squeeze with a 16” wide chair and the ZX1, and I know we will probably need to remove the anti-tip receivers. I anticipate that the length of the piston is probably going to get in the way even without the anti-tips. Has anyone shortened the pistons? Assuming that things work with “Question 1”, it is far more piston than we need when I compare it to other’s chairs.

          Question 4: Do D’s Locks use Teflon-coated cables? If so, I assume they do not need to be lubricated on installation, but maintained with a “dry” silicone or Teflon based lubricant. Any input?

          Question 5: I saw that others have used Plasti-dip or a plastic covering on the lever, but I’m wondering if anyone knows of a similar covering we could do like the Out-Front Composite Lock lever?

          ------------------------------------------------------------------------

          As mentioned in another post #159, I'm also trying to get this better documented, and am doing a "D's Locks for Dummies" so that people like me can follow it (I have had e-mails with Steve at D's Locks about this and he seems interested). These are the more general questions I am curious about for that:

          Question 6: Do all moon shaped pieces have 26 phillips head screws, or is it dependent on the wheel?

          Question 7: I weighed our D’s Locks before installing them, and they were approximately 1.5 lbs (685 gr). I saw someone else mention a much heavier weight in a post, and I wonder if I got something really wrong there. And I am not going to take them apart to re-weigh them!

          Question 8: For thread locker, do most people use Loctite® (blue) 242 or 243 or Vibra-TITE® VC-3 (TiLite uses this most)?

          Question 9: I used Loctite® 7063 Cleaner Degreaser before the Loctite thread locker. I don’t know if it was necessary, but would like to hear if others have done similar and agree/disagree?

          Question 10: For maintenance, would the following be accurate, and how often do you do it?:

          - Inspect the lock rings to make sure they are aligned and that all screws are securely fastened.
          - Inspect the piston assembly and ensure the locking nut is securely fastened.
          - Apply a “dry” silicone or Teflon® based lubricant into the spring and ratchet mechanism on the lever, while extending and releasing the lever.
          - Apply a “dry” silicone or Teflon® based lubricant into the lever pivot and work it into the joint by extending and releasing the lever.

          Okay, I think I will stop with all of my questions for now.

          Thanks for any help you can give.
          Last edited by elarson; 04-29-2013, 08:31 PM.
          Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

          Comment


          • #50
            My D's have red Loctite.

            For maintenance you can follow the advice for bicycle cables for cable actuated (not hydraulic) disk brakes.

            For the lever, you can use anything you please - the only function is releasing tension on the cable.
            Played with bombs- No SCI, Brain Damage enough that I require a chair and a caregiver.

            Comment


            • #51
              Ugh!, I used blue Loctite. I really don't even want to think about trying to get that off of 26 screws and doing it again!

              About the maintenance, I got the information I posted from bike forums. I see so many views, e.g., wet, dry, teflon, silcone, none, etc.

              I did not realise that you had D's IsMaisin. You have been really helpful, and I'd like to get a small group of users together to review the documentation I am putting together. Would you be up for that? IMHO, it is very needed, especially if I need to re-do 26 screws!

              It would be good too see some closeups of your Icon with D's if you get the time.

              Originally posted by IsMaisin View Post
              My D's have red Loctite.

              For maintenance you can follow the advice for bicycle cables for cable actuated (not hydraulic) disk brakes.

              For the lever, you can use anything you please - the only function is releasing tension on the cable.
              Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

              Comment


              • #52
                RE: "Loctite" colors - I find identifying thread-locker fluids by color confusing. LocTite blue liquid comes in a red container. VC-3 is red (I think), but is equivelent to Loctite blue in the red container . . .

                "Loctite" is often used like "Kleenex." Other guys/brands make thread locker, but no industry standard exists regarding color/application.

                I use Loctite brand #242 (a blue liquid or gel), which can be disassembled using standard hand tools.

                Loctite makes lots and lots of products. Here are three of their consumer thread lockers:





                Chas
                TiLite TR3
                Dual-Axle TR3 with RioMobility DragonFly
                I am a person with mild/moderate hexaparesis (impaired movement in 4 limbs, head, & torso) caused by RRMS w/TM C7&T7 incomplete.

                "I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but what I don't think you realize is that what you heard is not what I meant."
                <
                UNKNOWN AUTHOR>

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                • #53
                  Q2: they look good to me.

                  Q5: I used a short piece of plastic tubing.
                  Chas
                  TiLite TR3
                  Dual-Axle TR3 with RioMobility DragonFly
                  I am a person with mild/moderate hexaparesis (impaired movement in 4 limbs, head, & torso) caused by RRMS w/TM C7&T7 incomplete.

                  "I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but what I don't think you realize is that what you heard is not what I meant."
                  <
                  UNKNOWN AUTHOR>

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    I find the colors confusing also. I had a hard time finding Loctite #242 so I used Loctite #243, which is also medium strength (blue) and "tolerates minor surface contaminations from various oils". I think it's mostly marketed toward automotive use.

                    I just looked into thread lockers more. The "colors" system seems to be used by most brands of anaerobic thread lockers, which are typically methacrylate-based, and cure anaerobically, which means that they fix in the absence of air. Here is a link on Wikipedia.

                    Here is a good overview of Loctite® by the Colors, with an overview of the different products in each color:
                    Loctite Red - High Strength Permanent Threadlockers
                    Loctite Blue - Medium Strength Removable Threadlockers
                    Loctite Purple - Low Strength Small Thread Threadlockers
                    Loctite Green - Pre-Assembled Wicking Threadlockers

                    Vibra-TITE® VC-3 is similar to Loctitie #242 (blue) for strength, but the actual liquid is red. It is an acrylic polymer -- not an anaerobic thread locker and it is not an adhesive. Here is a link to the tech sheet. The difference is that it can be applied on parts that are stored before use and can be adjusted, removed, and reused up to 5 times. TiLite uses it on screws for casters, backrests, footrests, etc.

                    I will ask Steve about what his recommendations are. Given that many people installing D's Locks may not have good hand dexterity, I may also ask him about using something like Vibra-TITE VC-3. That would avoid all of this confusion (and a lot of work).

                    IsMaisin, If you really used "red" #271, I hope you never need to get those screws out, because that is going to be a bear of a job.
                    Last edited by elarson; 04-30-2013, 06:53 AM. Reason: added links
                    Partner of an incredible stroke survivor. Limitations: hemiparesis and neglect (functional paralysis and complete lack of awareness on one side). Equipment: TiLite ZRA 2 and 2GX, Spinergy ZX-1, RioMobility Firefly. Knowledge: relative newbie for high-level equipment (2012), but willing to try to help others who are new with similar limitations (definitely not a guru, but inquisitive).

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      https://www.carecure.net/forum/showt...ling-D-s-Locks - in post #6 of this thread DaleB shows a photo of one of his Lasher chairs with D's Locks installed mated to a Spinergy LX wheel.

                      Is there anyone here who has Round Betty wheels fitted with D's Locks? Are the locking hub parts identical for the Spinergy LX's and the Round Betty Dino's? Anyone with the V2's? They are nice looking wheels and I'm about to bite the bullet on them but want to know if I can use my pre-existing LX hardware on them.


                      https://www.dropbox.com/s/6l81rug99o...inoV2.JPG?dl=0
                      ..certainly look the same, maybe a little longer screws to accommodate the thicker spokes.

                      I've already bothered Eric at Round Betty too much and Steve at D's is no longer responding to my emails (likely prefers that I purchase an entire set instead of just the locking discs)
                      Last edited by tooley; 06-04-2019, 02:45 PM. Reason: tried to add photo

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                      • #56
                        I don't have any info on the Round Betty's, but I have purchased extra locking discs in the past for my spare set of LX wheels with knobby's. So you should be able to do that at least. Not sure if you use instagram, but HOC is usually good about responding to dm's on instagram.

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                        • #57
                          Looking at my locking rings, the grooves for the spokes on the LX wheels are just barely big enough for the spokes to fit in them. The Round Betty spokes look much bigger around. I'd be surprised if they'd fit, assuming the spoke patterns are the same, which I kind of doubt, too.
                          Last edited by Oddity; 06-04-2019, 05:53 PM. Reason: Words are hard
                          "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

                          "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by tooley View Post
                            https://www.carecure.net/forum/showt...ling-D-s-Locks - in post #6 of this thread DaleB shows a photo of one of his Lasher chairs with D's Locks installed mated to a Spinergy LX wheel.

                            Is there anyone here who has Round Betty wheels fitted with D's Locks? Are the locking hub parts identical for the Spinergy LX's and the Round Betty Dino's? Anyone with the V2's? They are nice looking wheels and I'm about to bite the bullet on them but want to know if I can use my pre-existing LX hardware on them.
                            I no longer use locking hubs but I found a few pics on my hard drive of the Surelocks discs I had made specifically for the Round Betty Dinos. For those unfamiliar with Round Betty Dinos, they use hollow aluminum spokes. The locking discs are secured to the hub with the 6 screws shown which insert into the hollow opening of the spokes. This design -- my brainchild -- replaced the need for a second inside-the-hub disc to secure it.
                            Attached Files
                            stephen@bike-on.com

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                            • #59
                              Brilliant
                              "I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it." - Edgar Allen Poe

                              "If you only know your side of an issue, you know nothing." -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

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