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  • Originally posted by dr.zapp View Post
    Why the sudden resistance to making the chair cheaper and more personalized? I don't know the details, so help me understand what the issues are?
    Icon is not resisting. Jeff has posted that Icon has a K5 in the design stage. He said their A1 is a K9 mainly because of price point (A1 is currently coded HCPCS K5, but Icon is appealing for K9). He even hinted the K5 Icon will come with no shock. . . So I, for one, anticipate a less expensive, less featured, but upgradeable K5 from Icon (presuming the A1 continues to be well received).
    Chas
    TiLite TR3
    Dual-Axle TR3 with RioMobility DragonFly
    I am a person with mild/moderate hexaparesis (impaired movement in 4 limbs, head, & torso) caused by RRMS w/TM C7&T7 incomplete.

    "I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but what I don't think you realize is that what you heard is not what I meant."
    <
    UNKNOWN AUTHOR>

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    • Originally posted by dr.zapp View Post
      Every Tour de France bike was suspension free this year... and last year.... and the year before.. Ok, there were some SoftRide equipped bikes, but no active suspension. I understand that titanium would have to be tailored to the rider weight- I'm not referring to any kind of "damping", just flex, like in the aforementioned SoftRide... So it would not work so well for that purpose, I was just tossing it out, but should have just thrown it away ;-) Lest anyone get the wrong impression, I know titanium is not always the best material for a chair (or bike) and as far as why motorcycles don't use it- it is too flexible for the large forces a motorized bike can put on the frame.
      Seems that getting one without a shock fits in with the philosophy Icon has, which is one I love. Completely upgradeable and modifiable. Why the sudden resistance to making the chair cheaper and more personalized? I don't know the details, so help me understand what the issues are?
      How much are you really going to save by replacing the shock with a bar? what $200? makes no sense. If you don't like suspension keep it locked out but I guarantee you that you'll leave it open for the most part. Once you've tried a chair with "real suspension" meaning not those polyurethane blocks you'll never go back.

      @stephen212 - the front gets beat up from getting in and out of my truck. If I didn't have those impact guards the front end would be scratched to shit. I tried to be careful but after the first scratch I said to hell with it. You don't see it while you're in it anyways. To me it's not a big deal.

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      • Originally posted by totoL1 View Post
        Definitly is a good reason always if your choice is a not painted frame.
        But for guys who don`t have the money for a titanium one, front impact guards in a painted aluminium frame will do the job too.
        I just have almost nothing on my chair and like it that way.
        Adaptive Sports Forums.com
        http://adaptivesportsforums.com
        Non-commercial adaptive sports user community

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        • [QUOTE=juggular;1473320]How much are you really going to save by replacing the shock with a bar? what $200? makes no sense.QUOTE]

          I am betting that what seems like a $200 shock to you, has a much larger affect on the retail price of a chair.
          Adaptive Sports Forums.com
          http://adaptivesportsforums.com
          Non-commercial adaptive sports user community

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          • Originally posted by JeffAdams View Post
            We're setting up the chair with base components that can be upgraded, and in many cases purchased at bike shops - the clamps that hold the front end into the frame fall into this category. The decision to put non-quick release clamps on the base model had nothing to do with liability issues, but everything to do with keeping the price as low as we could.

            Every single upgrade that we include in the base chair is multiplied many times over when it goes out through the distributor/dealer network (as it is in any industry). This was one of the principal complaints in our previous effort - we had an "all-in" price, with all the bells and whistles, and the price was way out of line.
            Originally posted by juggular View Post
            How much are you really going to save by replacing the shock with a bar? what $200? makes no sense.
            They chose to use standard clamps instead of quick-release because of price- and as Jeff points out, the original cost gets "multiplied many times"... If they quibble about a $5 clamp, why not a $200 shock that could be replaced with a $1 lightweight plug? I can maybe see the k9 vs k5 coding, but I don't understand why you have to have a different model to get different coding- can't that be done with different components, same design? So you can get the base model mostly paid with insurance, and then upgrade it as needed till you have the top of the line. Anyway, it would be sad if someone didn't have the $200 extra and had to get a Quickie instead...
            Last edited by dr.zapp; 01-07-2012, 05:10 PM.

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            • Originally posted by dr.zapp View Post
              They chose to use standard clamps instead of quick-release because of price- and as Jeff points out, the original cost gets "multiplied many times"... If they quibble about a $5 clamp, why not a $200 shock that could be replaced with a $1 lightweight plug? I can maybe see the k9 vs k5 coding, but I don't understand why you have to have a different model to get different coding- can't that be done with different components, same design? So you can get the base model mostly paid with insurance, and then upgrade it as needed till you have the top of the line. Anyway, it would be sad if someone didn't have the $200 extra and had to get a Quickie instead...
              Tell ya what, you find a $1 lightweight "plug" with the same dimensions, hardware mounts, and load capacity as an air shock, and I'll test it. Heck, I'll buy 10 & give 9 away for that price.

              The A1 frame was strategically designed for suspension. How many full-suspension mountain bikes do you see with "plugs" for riders who want to make them hardtails? Zero.

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              • Zapp - if you can design, engineer, test, validate, do any necessary regulatory filings, create tooling, and manufacture "different components" that have the "same design" yet somehow reduce the cost of the chair significantly, I'll buy them from you, and nominate you for an award!

                Listen, I don't control the industry, or the markups/margins, and I'm not going to apologize for running a for-profit company - I sell wheelchairs for more than it costs me to make them.

                There, I said it.

                But dude, that's just how companies work in a commercial marketplace, and there's no getting around the funding model that gets set by HCPCS codes and insurance.

                I promise you that we're keeping our margins as low as we can and still run a company, and we're doing everything we can to keep the price as low as we can. Please remember that we have an enormous amount more technology in this thing than any of our competitors. We're priced as a premium product because the Icon is a premium product compared to the rest of the offerings in the market.

                Like I said, we're trying to keep the price as low as we can, and with some of the parts, it's better for the end-user to go to a bike shop and reap the benefits that come with enormous volumes of parts being made (there are literally 10,000 TIMES more bikes made than wheelchairs every year) - that was my comment on the clamps - we're not trying to quibble about prices, nor are we cutting any corners on parts - our tolerances are tight, our finish quality is second to none, and we have a ton of real engineering in this thing.

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                • We're priced as a premium product because the Icon is a premium product compared to the rest of the offerings in the market.

                  That's a ballsy statement to make about a product that has not yet faced the ultimate test!

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                  • Originally posted by roller View Post
                    We're priced as a premium product because the Icon is a premium product compared to the rest of the offerings in the market.

                    That's a ballsy statement to make about a product that has not yet faced the ultimate test!
                    So call me ballsy.

                    Send me the test protocol for the "ultimate test", and I'll get the company that builds the Icon and the Aston Martin One-77 to fire up the test machine.

                    -Jeff "Ballsy" Adams

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                    • Originally posted by JeffAdams View Post
                      So call me ballsy.

                      Send me the test protocol for the "ultimate test", and I'll get the company that builds the Icon and the Aston Martin One-77 to fire up the test machine.

                      -Jeff "Ballsy" Adams
                      The test of time Jeff. And I would never pick a British car to compare my product to

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                      • I've owned many vintage British cars over the course of my life, and Lucas electrics notwithstanding, they're sound as a pound.

                        Christian and I are in this for the long haul.

                        The test of time will tell the tale, for sure - no arguments there, and putting aside all of my fuss and bluster, we're ready for it, we're going to make this work for people who use wheelchairs.

                        (We are people who use wheelchairs)

                        Icon. Fits.

                        Add: I'm going to be in SoCal next week, if you want to have a look at the chair live.
                        Last edited by JeffAdams; 01-08-2012, 08:13 AM.

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                        • I think the comparison to Aston Martin is excellent.
                          What you going to use?
                          GM, Ford,....
                          I would not want to put my product in the same thread let alone post!

                          I could be biased though!

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                          • Originally posted by JeffAdams View Post
                            Again, you may or may not agree with our take on it, but for what it's worth, here is how we see seat depth, and it highlights one of our frustrations with measurements in general - what the hell does 16" seat depth mean anyway? Does it take into account ballistic material seatbacks that sag less than some others? Does it measure to the front of the backrest tubes if there is a solid back on the chair, or does it measure to the deepest part of the solid back? Do we measure from the front of the seat to the back posts along the seat, or in a parallel plane to the floor? Does it matter on a solid seat pan if 1/2" of your cushion overhangs the seat? Is that maybe even preferable?

                            How about the one and only question that really matters:

                            How does the chair feel now?

                            And the follow up question:

                            Would you like me to adjust anything to make it feel better?
                            Absolutely true!
                            Pharmacist, C4-5 injury but functional C6 (no triceps/flexors)

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                            • Originally posted by Edinburgh Colin View Post
                              I think the comparison to Aston Martin is excellent.
                              What you going to use?
                              GM, Ford,....
                              I would not want to put my product in the same thread let alone post!

                              I could be biased though!
                              I'm not an American though I'm grateful to live here. If I were comparing a product I developed to a high standard and was comparing the quality to the automotive world, I'd probably go with Toyota or Honda!
                              My first car was a mini. I removed the 1300cc motor from an Austin allegro, a car which could be found lying dead on just about any street corner... That motor in my mini was legendary! I do love James Bonds Aston DBS? and I am a fan of many old British cars....
                              Sorry, just realized I'm hijacking this thread and going all Jeremy Clarkson versus Captain Slow!! I'll shut up now

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                              • The Icon will be a temendous help to the VA who provides my chair. Once the vet has one and until it or if the chair actually wears out, one will be enough. No replacing one that no longer fits and worn parts can be changed. The savings would be huge and the extra money the Icon costs would definately be justified.

                                I had my mind made up on the Q7 but now with the help of the OT, maybe when it's time, hopefully an Icon will be mine.
                                Last edited by forestranger52; 01-08-2012, 06:45 PM.
                                C 5/6 Comp.
                                No Tri's or hand function.

                                Far better it is to try mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure. Than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much or suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows neither victory or defeat.

                                Teddy Roosevelt

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