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    #31
    Originally posted by titanium4motion View Post
    Talking about cost for a manual 'chair. I recently got my Tilite ZR and its total cost came to $10,130.40! Attached is the receipt for the 'chair. I'll post pictures at another time. No polished frame either!
    I didn't see a charge for the Vaseline, so I assume they threw that in for free. That being said, you got screwed.

    C.

    Comment


      #32
      I just emailed Josh Anderson, Vice President of Marketing at TiLite, and invited him to weigh in on this matter -- price gouging among TiLite dealers. Josh responded previously to a dealer issue raised by Fuentejps in the thread he started in "DME reviews - good and bad".

      Stay tuned.
      stephen@bike-on.com

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by Tiger Racing View Post
        I didn't see a charge for the Vaseline, so I assume they threw that in for free. That being said, you got screwed.

        C.
        Not that is funny!! And the truth!!
        Originally posted by fuentejps
        injecting is way better for your body. but imo opinion its the only safe way

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by Doorman View Post
          Not that is funny!! And the truth!!
          The truth is the OP didn't get screwed -- he paid $0 out of pocket -- WE, health consumers coast to coast got screwed, and get screwed every time an opportunist vendor, and their insurance company enablers, gouges the system.
          stephen@bike-on.com

          Comment


            #35
            The VA negotiates prices on wheelchairs from the DME manufacturers.
            When a PT suggested that I order an OmegaTrac power wheelchair I balked when I was told the original cost of the chair was around $24,000. He then said that the VA has a deal and they pay about $13,000 for the chair. I didn't feel so bad after finding that out.

            I would be interesting to know how much they pay for a top end manual chair.
            C 5/6 Comp.
            No Tri's or hand function.

            Far better it is to try mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure. Than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much or suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows neither victory or defeat.

            Teddy Roosevelt

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by stephen212 View Post
              I just emailed Josh Anderson, Vice President of Marketing at TiLite, and invited him to weigh in on this matter -- price gouging among TiLite dealers. Josh responded previously to a dealer issue raised by Fuentejps in the thread he started in "DME reviews - good and bad".

              Stay tuned.
              Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000149 EndHTML:0000002417 StartFragment:0000000199 EndFragment:0000002383 StartSelection:0000000199 EndSelection:0000002383
              Thanks for bringing this to my attention and allowing me to comment. You know when I first saw the 10k+ price tag for a ZR. I was a bit shocked myself but then I looked at it a bit closer. The Otto bock seat cushion an CF backrest are included in the price and those two items alone are $1492.40. So the ZR's cost was $8638. Which I thought this was still expensive. So I took a ZR/ZRA order form and spec's out my chair exactly how I am using it less the seating system and it totaled $ 6380. See the attached order form. The only custom charge on my chair is for the CF side guards radiused to the wheel. It is hard to tell what custom charges are on this chair because they are not all listed on the invoice. But those would certainly account for some of the difference between this chair and my chair. My point is that it is easy for a custom chair to become very expensive when you are making one off modifications to it and ordering high-end components. Obliviously you need a perfect fit and each of the components to make the chair perform optimally and that level of customization is expensive regardless of manufacturer. But If your uncomfortable with the cost of your chair you need to ask the dealer to explain it to you. It is no different than buying a car. If you don't understand what is on the window sticker of a car your looking to buy you ask the salesmen. If your not happy with their response you go somewhere else to buy that car. It should be no different when purchasing a wheelchair. It is unfortunate that some of you have had a bad experience with a dealer. I on the other hand found a great dealer when I was in college and that’s what inspired me to get into this industry in the first place. I’ve also had a number of great therapists over the years who along with my dealer have helped me fine tune my chairs to make me not only more functional but more comfortable. So my advice to those who have had a negative experience is keep looking there are a lot of very good dealers and therapists out there.

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by Janderson View Post

                Thanks for bringing this to my attention and allowing me to comment. You know when I first saw the 10k+ price tag for a ZR. I was a bit shocked myself but then I looked at it a bit closer. The Otto bock seat cushion an CF backrest are included in the price and those two items alone are $1492.40. So the ZR's cost was $8638. Which I thought this was still expensive. So I took a ZR/ZRA order form and spec's out my chair exactly how I am using it less the seating system and it totaled $ 6380. See the attached order form. The only custom charge on my chair is for the CF side guards radiused to the wheel. It is hard to tell what custom charges are on this chair because they are not all listed on the invoice. But those would certainly account for some of the difference between this chair and my chair. My point is that it is easy for a custom chair to become very expensive when you are making one off modifications to it and ordering high-end components. Obliviously you need a perfect fit and each of the components to make the chair perform optimally and that level of customization is expensive regardless of manufacturer. But If your uncomfortable with the cost of your chair you need to ask the dealer to explain it to you. It is no different than buying a car. If you don't understand what is on the window sticker of a car your looking to buy you ask the salesmen. If your not happy with their response you go somewhere else to buy that car. It should be no different when purchasing a wheelchair. It is unfortunate that some of you have had a bad experience with a dealer. I on the other hand found a great dealer when I was in college and that’s what inspired me to get into this industry in the first place. I’ve also had a number of great therapists over the years who along with my dealer have helped me fine tune my chairs to make me not only more functional but more comfortable. So my advice to those who have had a negative experience is keep looking there are a lot of very good dealers and therapists out there.
                First, I would like to thank Josh for joining the conversation. I think it's important that people in the industry dialogue directly with the consumer.

                I think that in addition to the exorbitant price T4M paid -- or OK'd -- for his ZR, he also grossly overpaid for his cushion and backrest. In most retail experiences that I'm familiar with, dealers usually discount off the MSRP not jack it up. Take as a quick example TiLite's base price (before options) for a ZR, $2,895; the base price for T4M's was $4,053, a 29% markup!! Is a 29% markup considered "reasonable and customary"?

                I'll give someone else here the opportunity to take T4M's itemized list and come up with an approximate cost for the identical chair purchased from Sportaid, Spinlife, Bike-On, or other reputable online vendors. I realize that some DMEs provide after-sale service or other such ancillary support, however, I still don't think it justifies what I consider to be the DEEP FINGER gouging exercised by United Seating & Mobility of Brooklyn Heights, OH, T4M's vendor. How do the bean counters at T4M's insurance company green light these hyped prices? Since when does an insurance company not know how to say "No!"

                Something's still very wrong with this picture and it has real life consequences for all of us. We all need DME equipment and we need it to remain affordable and available. Certainly DME providers don't want to produce products that their target market can't reasonably purchase.

                I believe that it's within the power of DME manufacturers to establish terms regarding pricing for their chain of authorized dealers which sets caps on how high (or low) their products can retail for.
                stephen@bike-on.com

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by titanium4motion View Post
                  My medical insurance paid for the entire cost with $0 co-pay.
                  If you had to pay for this out of your own pocket, would you have coughed up 10 grand or looked elsewhere for a better price?

                  C.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by Janderson
                    There are a lot of very good dealers and therapists out there.
                    As you know Josh, I live in both worlds. As long as I am able to make common sense justification to our Prosthetics & Sensory Aids Service, I have no problem spec'ing out nicely optioned chairs for the veterans I work with (1, 2, 3, 4, 5).

                    On the other hand, because I am able to ambulate much of the time, there is no way my private insurance would even consider me for a ZRc. Fortunately, I had the clinical knowledge and product expertise to bypass any evaluations or local DME's. Thanks to a $300 Spinergy Spox special, I was able to get my ZRc through SportAid for around $2,300.

                    Since getting it around two years ago, I have been able to do a number of inexpensive mods to improve my ability to function in the chair. Many of these were necessary because 4x1 aluminum soft rolls or adjustable tension by straps back upholstery simply were not in my budget.

                    TiLite makes some of the highest quality, best engineered, titanium chairs out there. The way I see the industry going, I think an increasing proportion of your customers will be paying out-of-pocket. However, the MSRP of both your chairs and parts appears to be based on the traditional reimbursement model. To appeal to those who are willing to pay out-of-pocket, I think your whole pricing structure needs to be examined and that mechanisms are put in place so that knowledgeable end users can deal directly with your company and not a DME--especially for parts after the sale.

                    Oh and as far as the $650 upcharge for the polished finish, look what I was able to do for <$20 since we talked at ISS...
                    https://www.carecure.net/forum/showt...=120996&page=2
                    Last edited by SCI_OTR; 2 Sep 2009, 8:37 AM.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by titanium4motion View Post
                      Talking about cost for a manual 'chair. I recently got my Tilite ZR and its total cost came to $10,130.40! Attached is the receipt for the 'chair. I'll post pictures at another time. No polished frame either!

                      I had other modifications done to it as to see the serial number sitting from the 'chair. At Tilite there was a big discussion about honoring this request because where do they put the serial number? Under the seat on the cross bar. When you telephone Tilite about your 'chair, what is the first question they ask you? What is your serial number? I can look down and there it is!

                      Other options: aluminum seat pan, Spinergy LX rims, fixed "V" tapered back at 14", JetStream Pro Low back. Otto Boch "The Cloud" cushion and titanium hand rims sandblasted to a course finish for extra grip.

                      My Tilite TR lasted nine years with very little problems. I took it to China three times during its life time.

                      I recently read a thread today that some Tilite 'chairs are not being made to correct specifications. The man who fitted me for my Tilite ZR was a physical therapist. When he fitted me for the ZR he used a tablet notebook computer provide by Tilite to properly fit the person to the 'chair so mistakes could not be made. If there was a mistake or an incorrect fit or certain parts wouldn't work together correctly the computer would sound a noise and you would have to go back and correct the problem. When you were done you had your custom fitted 'chair with no manufacturing errors.

                      My medical insurance paid for the entire cost with $0 co-pay.


                      titanium4motion
                      Bueno para usted. Gente que no habla su idioma son mierda de suerte. Infierno I un americain nativo pero tengo que registrar en español. WTF

                      Comment


                        #41
                        in my case my copay was based off the inflated price thou. its all about margins.
                        heres mine


                        Originally posted by stephen212 View Post
                        First, I would like to thank Josh for joining the conversation. I think it's important that people in the industry dialogue directly with the consumer.

                        I think that in addition to the exorbitant price T4M paid -- or OK'd -- for his ZR, he also grossly overpaid for his cushion and backrest. In most retail experiences that I'm familiar with, dealers usually discount off the MSRP not jack it up. Take as a quick example TiLite's base price (before options) for a ZR, $2,895; the base price for T4M's was $4,053, a 29% markup!! Is a 29% markup considered "reasonable and customary"?

                        I'll give someone else here the opportunity to take T4M's itemized list and come up with an approximate cost for the identical chair purchased from Sportaid, Spinlife, Bike-On, or other reputable online vendors. I realize that some DMEs provide after-sale service or other such ancillary support, however, I still don't think it justifies what I consider to be the DEEP FINGER gouging exercised by United Seating & Mobility of Brooklyn Heights, OH, T4M's vendor. How do the bean counters at T4M's insurance company green light these hyped prices? Since when does an insurance company not know how to say "No!"

                        Something's still very wrong with this picture and it has real life consequences for all of us. We all need DME equipment and we need it to remain affordable and available. Certainly DME providers don't want to produce products that their target market can't reasonably purchase.

                        I believe that it's within the power of DME manufacturers to establish terms regarding pricing for their chain of authorized dealers which sets caps on how high (or low) their products can retail for.
                        Bike-on.com rep
                        John@bike-on.com
                        c4/5 inc funtioning c6. 28 yrs post.
                        sponsored handcycle racer

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by stephen212 View Post
                          The truth is the OP didn't get screwed -- he paid $0 out of pocket -- WE, health consumers coast to coast got screwed, and get screwed every time an opportunist vendor, and their insurance company enablers, gouges the system.
                          Stephen, you are right he didn't get screw but the rest of us are by selling a chair for that ridiculous price. The DME did not need to get any $$ for T4min when they made plenty of money off the chair itself. I don't fault T4min I blame the DME.
                          Originally posted by fuentejps
                          injecting is way better for your body. but imo opinion its the only safe way

                          Comment


                            #43
                            wow - i'm in the wrong biz! i should switch from custom bikes to custom chairs! FWIW, i paid $2600.00 for my Quicky Ti out of pocket & i'm very happy with it........i even got a Roho thrown in for free. wrote it off as a buisness expense as i work in a chair & cruise around the rest of the world on crutches......i got the cheap wheels, but i build wheels so i figure when they are shot i'll lace up some Phil Wood hubs & call it good. amazing, you could have almost bough TWO one-off handcycles for that price & they have allot more going on...........
                            Steve Garro. www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by fuentejps View Post
                              its all about margins.
                              Which is BS.

                              Doesn't MSRP include a cut for a dealer? (rhetorical)

                              Consider the automotive industry. Imagine if a $30,000.00 car was sold for $100,000.00 (with a few extra options), just b/c someone else was paying the bill. Wouldn't people go ballistic? That'd make national news.

                              In the medical industry, apparently some manufacturers are okay with it, as evidence shows in this thread.

                              It's absurd.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                i agree, tilite shouldnt let it happen, i know for a fact some in upper managment there do not like it
                                Bike-on.com rep
                                John@bike-on.com
                                c4/5 inc funtioning c6. 28 yrs post.
                                sponsored handcycle racer

                                Comment

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