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  • #31
    axons do not regenerate.......my biology teacher said .........20 years ago.
    true or false?

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    • #32
      Actually while looking into the procedure provided by Dr. Zhang after reading this thread I found this commentary that I find very interesting:

      Conclusion:

      Increasingly, it seems that the most exciting SCI therapeutic breakthroughs are originating in numerous places other than America. Although American neuroscience is unrivaled, for a variety of reasons - the pros and cons of which can be debated extensively - it has been difficult to translate this scientific excellence into real-world SCI therapies. Even when the initial scientific breakthrough happens in America, the bench-to-bedside transfer of knowledge that transforms this breakthrough into useful therapies often seems to occur elsewhere.

      One potential reason has been implied by Christopher Reeve, the well-known actor with SCI whose foundation greatly contributes to and influences the nature of SCI research in this country. Commenting on a peripheral nerve-routing operation carried by Italy’s Brunelli, Reeve has stated “I think it is pretty immoral because you have to follow a sequence. You’ve got to go from rats, a lot of rats. Then you have to go to bigger animals, pigs hopefully, not monkeys. You’ve got to demonstrate safety and efficacy.” (see http://care cureatinfopop.com).

      Reeve’s opinion reflects the prevailing conservative approach of the American SCI research community, which believes that serving its needs for scientific rigor is the best way to serve the needs of people with SCI for new therapeutic options. However, as someone who was extensively involved in setting SCI research priorities in this community, I believe that the cows will come home a long, long time before the pigs tell us anything truly useful.

      Dr. Zhang’s peripheral-nerve-rerouting approaches appear extraordinarily promising for restoring significant function after SCI. In the spirit of cooperation, we need to open-mindedly develop synergistic, mutually beneficial collaborations that can evaluate innovative procedures such as his and, more importantly, facilitate new understandings. One of Zhang’s foremost desires is to see a professional exchange in which his colleagues and their American counterparts would be able to visit and learn from each other’s experience.

      Society’s continued evolution into a “global village” has allowed us to share technology so we can order a comparable McDonalds Big Mac hamburger regardless of whether we are in China or America. Given that we can share such culinary technology, it would be an absurd sense of priorities not to be able to somehow share SCI therapeutic knowledge that would benefit so many.

      If we can bring together all the exciting SCI developments throughout the world, restoration of function would no longer be some distant pie-in-the-sky dream but a real-world expectation now. It’s time to pull it all together. No more excuses. Let’s roll.

      Acknowledgements & Resources: Special thanks are extended to Dr. Shaocheng Zhang, his colleagues, and superiors for extensive hospitality. Dr. Zhang can be reached by mail at 32-43-301, Zhongyuan Rd., Shanghai 200433, China or by fax at 001-86(country code)-21(city code)- 65346003.
      http://www.healingtherapies.info/per..._rerouting.htm

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Eric.S
        Dr. Young it seem that your stance on experimental treatments have changed. I can remember a few years ago you didnt have such a stanch stand against people going places to recieve experimental procedures, but now you seem far more against it. You never seemed "for" experimental procedures but you seemed to take more of a "wait and see" stance now you appear to be in complete opposition. What is it about experimental procedures now adays that has tipped you over the edge? do you feel experimental procedure are taking resources away from clinical research? Why isnt there room for both? I'd bet people who undergo experimental procedures probably don't contribute much to the community anyway. Didn't christopher Reeves undergo an experimental procedure in Israel? I may be wrong...
        Eric I believe that in the late past and up to now thousands of SCI’d has been buying into such procedures. So maybe then then good Doc here like any researcher these days (just name one researcher these days that supports such experimental treatments we kind of discuss here, not past history etc.) want to step forward and be more vocal as for explaining and discussing such experimental treatments so SCI ppl will not get hurt and use their money on quacks. -I remember a couple of years ago asking a Q as for the Neurovita clinic with some researchers, I had the papers from their clinic (little, but what any can find), the answer was the way they collect stem cells is not a big deal (from the papers), but the issue was it just wont work like that to fix an injured cord (as the procedure was from the little they had the information from when it came to this clinic for example). I argued saying if something like this could help? Well, as time elapse and understands more, I understand they are completely right. They are also right in this, SCI research to restore and understand SCI is laughable under funded. I also understand this now. More than anything. It’s all a joke like it is, but with good scientists, researchers like Dr. Young wanting to cure SCI and many others we will prevail. Just look around what is happening, SCI is in the media now, all in media and papers, researchers believe in it, awareness is getting bigger day by day, like now also the Red Bull F1 racing team in Britain will have passport photos of SCI’d and relatives all over their racing cars. DC Washington rallies happens and many other tings. Here the last times I have attended some that can also affect a treatment for SCI... - I think it’s about time we also as a group hit the pedal and create a real burnout to have this going instead of discussing the past. – Just go for it. If not, that is also cool. But the times are changing. Altough a bit slow one could argue…
        Last edited by Leif; 06-04-2007, 05:16 PM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Eric.S
          Actually while looking into the procedure provided by Dr. Zhang after reading this thread I found this commentary that I find very interesting:



          http://www.healingtherapies.info/per..._rerouting.htm
          Let’s roll for the future, right, -but do you want to be an historian or a person creating the history? It’s simple of course. The historians are just laid back ppl until there is a history to mention while they are nipping to their coffee latte, or they might just create a story when the coffee gets to bad on their stomachs. The history makers on the other hand…
          Last edited by Leif; 06-04-2007, 05:37 PM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Leif
            Let’s roll for the future, right, -but do you want to be an historian or a person creating the history? It’s simple of course. The historians are just laid back ppl until there is a history to mention while they are nipping to their coffee latte, or they might just create a story when the coffee gets to bad on their stomachs. The history makers on the other hand…
            No offense but honestly, I dont get your point.. I was just posting a doctor's views who i agree with...

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Eric.S
              No offense but honestly, I dont get your point.. I was just posting a doctor's views who i agree with...
              Sorry, I just took it a step further, my bad. No pun intended from my side. It was not the meaning to say any bad towards you or others as for the discussions here in this thread. I apologise.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Leif
                Sorry, I just took it a step further, my bad. No pun intended from my side. It was not the meaning to say any bad towards you or others as for the discussions here in this thread. I apologise.
                Oh, i understand now. i wasn't offended, just didn't quite get the jist of your post. its fine, no need for apologies....

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Eric.S
                  Dr. Young it seem that your stance on experimental treatments have changed. I can remember a few years ago you didnt have such a stanch stand against people going places to recieve experimental procedures, but now you seem far more against it. You never seemed "for" experimental procedures but you seemed to take more of a "wait and see" stance now you appear to be in complete opposition. What is it about experimental procedures now adays that has tipped you over the edge? do you feel experimental procedure are taking resources away from clinical research? Why isnt there room for both? I'd bet people who undergo experimental procedures probably don't contribute much to the community anyway. Didn't christopher Reeves undergo an experimental procedure in Israel? I may be wrong...
                  Eric,

                  As I have tried to explain, I have now waited in vain for over two years and find that the Beike group has not and is not apparently planning to document the efficacy and safety of the treatments that they are charging people for. At the beginning, I thought that this was what they wanted to do. It is unethical for them to be making unsubstantiated claims of safety and efficacy, and charging people for the treatment.

                  No, Christopher Reeve did not undergo any experimental procedure in Israel. To my knowledge, he has had only two experimental procedures. One was an injection fo GM1. He had an allergic anaphylactic response to this treatment and it was stopped after one injection. The second was the diaphragm stimulator that he had transplanted in Cleveland. This stimulator was placed non-invasively. After he had this stimulator placed, he began to show evidene of a chronic infection. He was sick from the treatments and had become septic. When he was treated with a new antibiotic, he apparently developed anaphylactic shock and died.

                  Wise.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Eric.S
                    Dr. Young it seem that your stance on experimental treatments have changed. I can remember a few years ago you didnt have such a stanch stand against people going places to recieve experimental procedures, but now you seem far more against it. You never seemed "for" experimental procedures but you seemed to take more of a "wait and see" stance now you appear to be in complete opposition. What is it about experimental procedures now adays that has tipped you over the edge? do you feel experimental procedure are taking resources away from clinical research? Why isnt there room for both? I'd bet people who undergo experimental procedures probably don't contribute much to the community anyway. Didn't christopher Reeves undergo an experimental procedure in Israel? I may be wrong...
                    Hmmm, that's interesting. I never remember Wise having a wait and see attitude when it came to unprecedented and undocumented surgical procedures, transplants or injections and I've been reading his posts since 97/98. A few early "cures" that come to mind are neuralyn, the shark injections, the rabbit cell injections, the guy claiming to cure SCI using light beams through the retina, tilted bed approach, laserpuncture, enteric glial transplants, etc. Wise has always called them for what they were, scams, and so far, he hasn't been wrong. Members then were just as emphatic about those "cures" as members are now regarding Bieke. There were heated debates about Neuralyn. The folks who received their injections were self proclaimed mavericks, they weren't going to wait around for a cure like the rest of us, they were going to do something about their injuries. Turns out Neuralyn was a common topical anesthetic but the SCI's returned wth claims of sensory and motor recovery....tingling is how they described it. That group has since been charged with fraud. Seems chronic complete SCI is just as vulnerable to the placebo effect as other conditions.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      You missed ACT (Advanced Cell Therapeutics, not to ne compared to the real ACT), but I’ve always wondered why the tilted bed didn’t become a blockbuster. -Maybe the reason is that it is free and don’t cost any money ("they" say).
                      Last edited by Leif; 06-04-2007, 08:45 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Wise Young
                        Eric,

                        As I have tried to explain, I have now waited in vain for over two years and find that the Beike group has not and is not apparently planning to document the efficacy and safety of the treatments that they are charging people for. At the beginning, I thought that this was what they wanted to do. It is unethical for them to be making unsubstantiated claims of safety and efficacy, and charging people for the treatment.

                        No, Christopher Reeve did not undergo any experimental procedure in Israel. To my knowledge, he has had only two experimental procedures. One was an injection fo GM1. He had an allergic anaphylactic response to this treatment and it was stopped after one injection. The second was the diaphragm stimulator that he had transplanted in Cleveland. This stimulator was placed non-invasively. After he had this stimulator placed, he began to show evidene of a chronic infection. He was sick from the treatments and had become septic. When he was treated with a new antibiotic, he apparently developed anaphylactic shock and died.

                        Wise.
                        In the first paragraph I have no idea what your talking about. I'm just saying I can remember people coming on here talking about experimental procedures and you seemed to have a more open minded response although you did always say that you were waiting to see there documented results or saying "I hope they publish there results". Its just seems like you have more fangs now, like I never remember you calling Dr. Huang a out and out scam artist anything of that nature.

                        So you believe Christopher Reeve's death was a result of experimental procedure?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by antiquity
                          Hmmm, that's interesting. I never remember Wise having a wait and see attitude when it came to unprecedented and undocumented surgical procedures, transplants or injections and I've been reading his posts since 97/98. A few early "cures" that come to mind are neuralyn, the shark injections, the rabbit cell injections, the guy claiming to cure SCI using light beams through the retina, tilted bed approach, laserpuncture, enteric glial transplants, etc. Wise has always called them for what they were, scams, and so far, he hasn't been wrong. Members then were just as emphatic about those "cures" as members are now regarding Bieke. There were heated debates about Neuralyn. The folks who received their injections were self proclaimed mavericks, they weren't going to wait around for a cure like the rest of us, they were going to do something about their injuries. Turns out Neuralyn was a common topical anesthetic but the SCI's returned wth claims of sensory and motor recovery....tingling is how they described it. That group has since been charged with fraud. Seems chronic complete SCI is just as vulnerable to the placebo effect as other conditions.
                          I can say I've never read any of his posts refering to anything as a scam until recently. I cant say he's pushed any procedure but he has given them a chance. I remember there were like 12 page long threads for people who had experimental procedures to post on what little benefits they had recieved from them. Ypu seem so well versed on the subject, so whats the hot new "cure" out now that everyone is clamoring about that is a fraud that has brought the Doctor's fangs out?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I think the bogus when it comes to stem cells how it is done started in Russia, some did see some and quickly a way to earn easy money on naïve westerners, this also moved from Novosibirsk to Moscow (and of course none could tell, because it was military research etc,). Then the promises of stem cell research (which in fact we have to live with cause it is our building blocs) made some to go into the thinking box to earn more money from it. -Why do not serious attempts come from Russia, China (in general), Turkey and Azerbaijan? Why does none go to England, Sweden or the US for experimental therapies as for this?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Eric.S
                              In the first paragraph I have no idea what your talking about. I'm just saying I can remember people coming on here talking about experimental procedures and you seemed to have a more open minded response although you did always say that you were waiting to see there documented results or saying "I hope they publish there results". Its just seems like you have more fangs now, like I never remember you calling Dr. Huang a out and out scam artist anything of that nature.

                              So you believe Christopher Reeve's death was a result of experimental procedure?
                              Eric, you seem frustrated because Wise won't spport what the Bieke group is doing. He's legitimate scientist Eric. You won't find many, if any legitimate neuroscientists who'd support Bieke's procedure or any other procedure that has no record of safety, efficacy or patient follow-up. You're looking to the wrong person for validation. During the Huang excitement, Wise suggested waiting to those who asked for his opinion. He was also critical of Huang's lack of follow-up. It's not true that Wise has been inconsistent in his attitude toward poorly documented procedures.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Eric.S
                                I can say I've never read any of his posts refering to anything as a scam until recently. I cant say he's pushed any procedure but he has given them a chance. I remember there were like 12 page long threads for people who had experimental procedures to post on what little benefits they had recieved from them. Ypu seem so well versed on the subject, so whats the hot new "cure" out now that everyone is clamoring about that is a fraud that has brought the Doctor's fangs out?
                                I don't understand your question. You're the one alleging that Wise's fangs are out now moreso than in the past. The fact is that Wise has never recommended that people undergo unproven treatments.

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