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Dr. Douglas Kerr - Stem cells regrow damaged nerves in rats: study

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    #76
    Let's look at the simple facts here....

    OK...I am sorry, I have cooled off a bit. Let's just simplify these facts:
    Treating acute SCI is non-sensical! How will anyone know whether recovery was induced by the drugs or not?! Who has been going to fundraisers, donating time and money? I'll tell you who, us! What, are we invisible to researchers?! They might as well be ambulance chasers, looking for fresh new broken bodies. By stating that after the scar is formed, treatments are ineffective, makes me question what short cuts have they taken, or what was their primary objective in the first place. I am sorry, but I could give a fuck less about someone who isn't paralyzed yet, and I'd rather advocate safety tips for them so they don't need to be SCI in the first fucking place! It is beyond harsh to think that if all goes well, they'll be in the spotlight, and we'll be as good as forgotten and DOA! I guess at best, we can suck it up and wait another mere 10 years.
    Next- to go from mice, to chimps, to dogs will take thousands of years, not to mention take thousands of innocent animal's lives. If a dog is chronically injured, that's OK, but if these gouls are taking part in crippling innocents, I tell you now, with all sincerity, I will track down anyone I can find who has taken any part in this and hurt them! I cannot emphasize how much I am not bluffing! There are literally thousands of crippled and broken people, like us, who would be happy to take part in trials, but what's the use, anything we say goes right in one ear and out the other. The only time we get the time of day is when we're writing checks.
    Finally, reality reared it's ugly head when what's his name from Miami Project stated publicly that, " someone with SCI today may very well see clinical trials in their lifetime". The cat's out of the bag, and that statement literally made me sick to my very core! I'm sure he was relieved after that speech, finally thinking he was off the hook. It's almost as corrupt and sorry as Enron and Tyco, WE WANT OUR MONEY BACK!!! I didn't attend meetings and/or raise funds to wait in line with an endless array of fellow gimps to crowd into a half baked phase 1 clinical trial in 15 years.
    Everyone could just shut up and realize that SCI is a nightmare, but what's actually worse than the no orgasms, erections, bowel, bladder, mobility, 24 hour intractable neurogenic burning or general life satisfation and well being, is being tortured and let down like this!! If this isn't "false hope", then I don't know what is!

    I'd like to hear who agree's or disagree's with me, we're all in this shit storm together, and us and our dear families have already been through enough to last a lifetime!

    Comment


      #77
      Originally posted by Lindox
      Dr. Wise,
      Wouldn't it buy some time in ALS and the most severe forms of SMA to introduce healthy motorneurons?

      It seems only 10% or so is genetically linked to the SOD1 gene..so how does the other 90% start if not by gene turn on..or off who knows?

      If it is an autoimmune kickstart couldn't some type of transplant also buy time for the science to learn the exact reason for these diseases?

      How long would the healthy neurons survive before they too would become victims of the disease process? Is it feasible that the cell transplant could be given more or less like drugs are given to control hypertension?

      Thanks.
      Lindox, excellent questions.

      ALS and SMA are both genetic diseases, where the genes have been identified. The reason for the death of the motoneurons, however, have not been determined. In ALS, the gene is SOD1 which is superoxide dysmutase, an enzyme that is known to inactivate free radicals. When it was first discovered, many researchers thought that this implicated free radicals in the death of the motoneurons and many of the early therapies of ALS included some from of anti-oxidation. However, these treatments have not turned out to be effective. It appears that the effect of the SOD1 gene may not be directly due to loss of antioxidation in motoneurons but may be related to changes in the glial cells and perhaps some factor they produce that may be necessary for motoneuronal survival.

      In any case, to my knowledge, none of the studies to date have shown that embryonic stem cells will replace all motoneurons or are preventing further loss of motoneurons in animal models of ALS. If embryonic stem cells are protecting and preventing further motoneuronal loss, that would be very exciting. I don't think that this is what Kerr's study has shown. Progressive loss of motoneurons is the cause of the disease and unless the progressive loss is stopped, the disease will progress. The "cure" for ALS, SMA, and other neurodegenerative diseases will require treatments that prevent the progressive loss of neurons.

      Wise.

      Comment


        #78
        Let me try to answer some of the questions that you have posed:
        Originally posted by damagedgoods
        OK...I am sorry, I have cooled off a bit. Let's just simplify these facts:
        Treating acute SCI is non-sensical! How will anyone know whether recovery was induced by the drugs or not?!
        • This is why controlled clinical trials are necessary. The National Acute Spinal Cord Injury Study (NASCIS) treated 487 patients with methylprednisolone, naloxone or placebo. At 6-12 months after injury, those treated with methylprednisolone with in 8 hours after injury had about 20% better neurological scores than those that received placebo. Naloxone patients had neurological function that was in between that of methylprednisolone and placebo treated patients. Statistical analysis indicates that the difference between the methylprednisolone treated patients and those with placebo is significant.

        Who has been going to fundraisers, donating time and money? I'll tell you who, us! What, are we invisible to researchers?! They might as well be ambulance chasers, looking for fresh new broken bodies. By stating that after the scar is formed, treatments are ineffective, makes me question what short cuts have they taken, or what was their primary objective in the first place. I am sorry, but I could give a fuck less about someone who isn't paralyzed yet, and I'd rather advocate safety tips for them so they don't need to be SCI in the first fucking place! It is beyond harsh to think that if all goes well, they'll be in the spotlight, and we'll be as good as forgotten and DOA! I guess at best, we can suck it up and wait another mere 10 years.
        • People with spinal cord injuries are not "invisible" to scientists who are working in the field. I can assure you that the voice and presence of people with spinal cord injury has driven the research forward and is an important in motivating spinal cord injury scientists to work.

        Next- to go from mice, to chimps, to dogs will take thousands of years, not to mention take thousands of innocent animal's lives. If a dog is chronically injured, that's OK, but if these gouls are taking part in crippling innocents, I tell you now, with all sincerity, I will track down anyone I can find who has taken any part in this and hurt them! I cannot emphasize how much I am not bluffing! There are literally thousands of crippled and broken people, like us, who would be happy to take part in trials, but what's the use, anything we say goes right in one ear and out the other. The only time we get the time of day is when we're writing checks.
        • Then, why don't you do something like supporting the CRPA which is trying to get some funding for clinical trials.

        Finally, reality reared it's ugly head when what's his name from Miami Project stated publicly that, " someone with SCI today may very well see clinical trials in their lifetime". The cat's out of the bag, and that statement literally made me sick to my very core! I'm sure he was relieved after that speech, finally thinking he was off the hook. It's almost as corrupt and sorry as Enron and Tyco, WE WANT OUR MONEY BACK!!! I didn't attend meetings and/or raise funds to wait in line with an endless array of fellow gimps to crowd into a half baked phase 1 clinical trial in 15 years.
        • If you have ever tried to raise money for spinal cord injury clinical trials, you will understand how difficult it is, given the pessimism of the field and the community.

        Everyone could just shut up and realize that SCI is a nightmare, but what's actually worse than the no orgasms, erections, bowel, bladder, mobility, 24 hour intractable neurogenic burning or general life satisfation and well being, is being tortured and let down like this!! If this isn't "false hope", then I don't know what is!

        I'd like to hear who agree's or disagree's with me, we're all in this shit storm together, and us and our dear families have already been through enough to last a lifetime!
        • I agree that hope will become false if the treatments don't get to clinical trial. Let's work together for funding of clinical trials. More than anything, I don't want to be here 10 years from now hearing the same pessimism.

        Comment


          #79
          Originally posted by Leif
          Right. For some to be able to twitch a finger could be a great thing but the same systems apply for a big lazy foot. If they can fix a finger they will be able to fix a foot or other organs so they can function. And Geron for sure expects more, do you think they would have spent so much time and money on this if the goal was just to twitch a finger a little bit. I don’t think so. This is also early phase and so far for acutes but things is happening. On this I agree with DA. But there is one strange thing I find. Why aren’t more researchers looking into this? You know, say for an engineering project there could be over thousands of engineers just working on one single project alone before it materialises. If we are looking into hESC research I would say there are just approximately just around hundred scientists worldwide working on this (excluding assistants), regenerating of CNS with hESC’s I mean. Why is it like this when we see what this can do in animal tests like in this article and previous papers when it comes to possible treatments for SCI? Why aren’t more scientists dropping what they do and start with this including the usage and research for growth factors to be used with the cells like in this article? If it is just hundred researchers scattered all over the world doing this it will take time.
          Leif,

          I am surprised by your questions. Are you asking these questions seriously? Many scientists are working with growth factors. I am sure that many are planning experiments. It has been only a week. Come. Be realistic. While I appreciate your frustration, impatience, and anger, please understand that scientists cannot "drop what they do" and start with a new project every time a paper comes up. They need to find new grant funding for the new project, learn and optimize new techniques, train people to apply the techniques, develop the cells and acquire reagents for their experiments, and then work hard for months or even years to get the experiments going.

          There are probably no more than about 100 laboratories around the world doing active spinal cord injury research? As many as 15-20% of these laboratories may lose their funding this year in the United States due to funding cuts at NIH. I don't see many people, even on this site, protesting these cuts or even showing interest in this problem.

          Wise.

          Comment


            #80
            Wise. Half serious I was. I don’t want them to drop what they do every time a paper comes out, it’s just that there is quite a bit promising with respect to embryonic stem cells and research for SCI as I understand and that has been there for a little while, but I might be wrong here. But if so, could this mean that some research groups are doing research that would not have been carried out today by what is known if it wasn’t for it takes so long time to “switch” research? Or is more knowledge required for taking such decisions. With my growth factor comment I meant, - must not the growth factor cocktail be tailor-made for the cells being used? Thereby and if so and if some stem cell research is ongoing which ideally should have been “switched” wouldn’t this also mean that the growth factor studies for those cells also could be the “wrong” growth factors to study?

            This is not any attach on any researchers or research institutes from me, it is just that I would really have liked to known what is the best route for basic research for a cure for SCI.

            I agree that we need more laboratories studying SCI and to fund them with the money required. Often it is the researchers themselves also that points out the problem with funding while we as the customers does little and nothing to protest it which is kind of strange.
            Last edited by Leif; 22 Jun 2006, 7:15 PM.

            Comment


              #81
              Timelines...

              As Dr. Young has told us about a million times, no one can give a specific date with any accuracy but things are changing and at least there are laboratories who are putting out timelines which probably wasn't the case just a few years ago. I know it's not as fast as any of us would like, and may not be happening in the US but at least it's happening.

              I am attaching a PDF that I received a while back regarding Dr. McDonald's NTT project in Colombia, South America. It has a specific timeline on the last page which is pretty bold. In my opinion, this timeline is lightspeed compared to most and this is a project we should all be trying to help move forward.

              Comment


                #82
                I am attaching a PDF that I received a while back regarding Dr. McDonald's NTT project in Colombia, South America. It has a specific timeline on the last page which is pretty bold. In my opinion, this timeline is lightspeed compared to most and this is a project we should all be trying to help move forward.[/quote]

                This is indeed exciting news, or at least exciting news to me. I wasn't familiar with Dr. McDonald's work in Colombia yet. Thanx, Carl
                Step up, stand up for:
                http://www.stepnow.org

                'He not busy being born is busy dying." <Bob Dylan>

                Comment


                  #83
                  Originally posted by artsyguy1954
                  This is indeed exciting news, or at least exciting news to me. I wasn't familiar with Dr. McDonald's work in Colombia yet. Thanx, Carl
                  Here is a thread; /forum/showthread.php?t=60954

                  Comment


                    #84
                    A little bit more regarding the thread here; http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-06-22-voa40.cfm

                    Comment


                      #85
                      And some more;

                      http://www.bestsyndication.com/Artic...d_injuries.htm

                      I don't think the paper is ready yet for the July issue online.
                      Last edited by Leif; 23 Jun 2006, 10:19 AM.

                      Comment


                        #86
                        Rats walk but money waits

                        NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) - Paralyzed rats are walking again, thanks to a new stem cell treatment; that's big news for the medical community ... and a 10-year wait for anybody wanting to make a buck off it.

                        Dr. Douglas Kerr, assistant professor of neurology at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, used experimental stem cell technology to successfully repair lab rats' damaged spines, restoring mobility to their legs.

                        If scientists are able to repeat this success in humans, stem cells could eventually be used to help paralyzed patients walk again, even in cases where spinal cords are severed by motorcycle accidents, sports injuries or war wounds. Kerr's experiment gives hope to a broad range of therapies for the rebuilding of kneecaps, brain cells, and even the pancreas in diabetics. Stem cells are being considered as treatments for multiple sclerosis and brain damage, and diseases like Lou Gehrig's, Alzheimer's and Parkinson's.

                        Geron Corp. (down $0.13 to $6.25, Charts), StemCells Inc. (down $0.03 to $1.94, Charts), Aastrom Biosciences Inc. (down $0.05 to $1.18, Charts) and ViaCell, Inc. (down $0.10 to $4.28, Charts) are some of the lead biotechs in stem cell research, but analysts say that it's going to take years before they're able to turn recent breakthroughs into revenue.

                        "People get excited when there are scientific advancements like this, and you need that excitement to get investors interested in companies like these," said Ben Weintraub, analyst for Noble Financial Group. "But they need to understand that translating an advance like that from preclinical study into human medicine is a process that takes at least 10 years."

                        The money-making question for analysts is not just when, but how. Stem cell companies are not like Big Pharma, or even other biotechs, that make and sell drugs. These companies would probably use their technology in conjunction with a patient's own cells in order to treat them.

                        "The other important thing that investors need to realize is that the business model for stem cell companies is still a bit of an enigma," said Weintraub. "The business model of selling someone their own cells is still uncertain. It's not like a drug that you can sell someone for $40,000 a year."

                        StemCells is working on "off the shelf" stem cells that could be stored and sold to patients, said Weintraub. "That's a little bit clearer business model [compared to its competitors,] but the worry is that someone else's cells off the shelf are not going to be as good as your own," he said.

                        Steve Brozak, analyst for WBB Securities, said that Geron is the strongest company in the stem cell business because it has done the best job of protecting its developments through patents. But there's also the issue of international competitiveness. Brozak is concerned that American companies haven't done enough to research these emerging technologies and will soon be swept under by foreign competitors, who could be making discoveries unknown to us.

                        "The one thing we have to fear is what's going on overseas," said Brozak. "While the U.S. companies are sleeping, what [international] private or state enterprises are advancing stem cell research?"

                        But stem cell research, along with the overall abortion debate, is a controversial subject in the United States. This friction often surfaces in questions of federal funding. That, analysts argue, puts U.S. research efforts at a disadvantage to overseas competition.

                        Brozak said the U.S. government's lack of enthusiasm in getting up to speed with stem cell technologies isn't doing any favors for patients or biotechs.

                        "You tell me how long it takes the FDA to figure out what it's doing and you tell me how long it takes the politicians to get some spinal development," said Brozak.

                        http://money.cnn.com/2006/06/22/news...nies/stemcell/

                        Comment


                          #87
                          Originally posted by Dan194
                          Question for people.
                          Is Douglas Kerr allowed to do a trial version of this on a paralzed person.
                          Or he needs goverment approval.
                          How does this work?

                          2nd question.
                          If he cant do a trial version on a paralzyed person in the U.S.
                          Can he do this procedure in another country?
                          He would need FDA approval to use Rolipram and DCamp, I think, since those have yet to be approved for human use. To use a person's own stem cells, using SCNT, Maryland has no law against the use of embryonic stem cell use and approved a bill for $15 million in research using stem ceells to include hESCs in fiscal 2007. So he would just need his hospital's IRB (internal review board) approval to operate on a human. Actually to get someone else to operate. Dr Douglas Kerr is a neurologist, MD and PhD not a surgeon.

                          As for another country? I think he would lose a lot of his funding if he tried this anyplace but in Singapore where Johns Hopkins is opening a new hospital/clinic.

                          And one of those rats has a Sue mask on it.
                          Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, "I will try again tomorrow."

                          Disclaimer: Answers, suggestions, and/or comments do not constitute medical advice expressed or implied and are based solely on my experiences as a SCI patient. Please consult your attending physician for medical advise and treatment. In the event of a medical emergency please call 911.

                          Comment


                            #88
                            Originally posted by damagedgoods
                            We got chimps in 4-5 years, because researchers would rather mortally wound an innocent animal than treat a FUCKING suffering human being! If any researcher dares to operate on chimps and/or dogs, after mice, before humans, they better watch out! I know where their labs are and I wouldn't flinch from mowing them down!
                            "I WILL MAIM IF ANY INNOCENT CHIMPS OR DOGS/CATS ARE HARMED IN THIS COUNTRY"! And I ain't bluffing you pussies!
                            "fuck all of you"!
                            A). I believe threatening to harm anyone is a felony in most states and also breaks federal law by using the internet to convey it.

                            B). By using "Innocent" dogs many more dogs will live in the future instead of being euthanized for spinal cord injuries such as those that often afflict dacshounds, beagles and corgis. These breeds tend to have disc problems not caused by puppy mill inbreeding due to their long backs. When you look at modern veternary science you will find that many dogs thrive today based on research meant for humans that is also useful to dogs. And the most helpful therapies to date for SCIs has come from Purdue's Center For Paralysis Research that uses dogs naturally hurt and have been tested to insure they do not have pain. Most of these dogs go home on K-9 carts and some often walk right out of those carts.

                            So, before threatening scientists you should talk to a few. I've met many in the field of neuroscience who cannot work on dogs because they can't face the one at home afterwards. I've often told them that my last dog had a good long life due to human research on dogs. Without it she would have died from thyroid insufficiency early on or been deformed for life and in pain when she ruptured her AC ligament. In that case research on human knees was used as an outline for fixing my dog's leg so she had another 6 painfree years of running and jumping.

                            There are others who cannot work on chimps because they see the intelligence in their eyes. Isn't it intelligence that leads to serving the greater good? Many animals that are becoming inbreed due to shrinking land space to roam in can benefit from each therapeutic experiment as few chimp experiments do not try to also glean more knowledge to help the species as a whole.

                            I hate to think of animals in pain also. I also know that many scientists have gone to great lengths to find a way to keep these animals painfree during and after their operations and also that any euthanized are done so as humanely as possible.
                            Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, "I will try again tomorrow."

                            Disclaimer: Answers, suggestions, and/or comments do not constitute medical advice expressed or implied and are based solely on my experiences as a SCI patient. Please consult your attending physician for medical advise and treatment. In the event of a medical emergency please call 911.

                            Comment


                              #89
                              I believe it is correct, that in this country we are looking at at least a 10yr period this research will be translated into treatments. Unfortunately I believe that is probably more true in this country then in others such as Israel for example. At my age I know that I will be long gone before there is any meaningful stem cell treatments available in the U.S. If I were younger I would keep my eyes on treatments in other part of the world and volunteer for trials when something looks promising.
                              mike

                              Comment


                                #90
                                mike,

                                I'm the same boat your in. I no longer worry about benefiting from future therapies.

                                Seems as though with these latest findings we have gone from the 5 more year thing to 10 years.

                                SCI progress seems to be inverting.

                                Comment

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