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A Breakthrough in spinal cord injury treatment (interview with doctor Wise Young)

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    A Breakthrough in spinal cord injury treatment (interview with doctor Wise Young)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhx1...MjGeFmrxzsOQyo
    "That's not smog! It's SMUG!! " - randy marsh, southpark

    "what???? , you don't 'all' wear a poop sac?.... DAMNIT BONNIE, YOU LIED TO ME ABOUT THE POOP SAC!!!! "


    2010 SCINet Clinical Trial Support Squad Member
    Please join me and donate a dollar a day at http://justadollarplease.org and copy and paste this message to the bottom of your signature

    #2
    So I was correct all that time ago...? If a person is laying on their back, they can't voluntarily lift their legs... But the walking isn't "shuffle walking "? How is that? No hating; I mean I will gladly take any help over what I currently have... But do we have the whole picture here? Or is there more to know coming up
    "That's not smog! It's SMUG!! " - randy marsh, southpark

    "what???? , you don't 'all' wear a poop sac?.... DAMNIT BONNIE, YOU LIED TO ME ABOUT THE POOP SAC!!!! "


    2010 SCINet Clinical Trial Support Squad Member
    Please join me and donate a dollar a day at http://justadollarplease.org and copy and paste this message to the bottom of your signature

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      #3
      The force - and hence the degree of muscle recruitment - needed to move a leg against gravity is massively more than that required to swing a leg during walking. I can swing my legs with hip-flexors while standing or on a powder board, but I cannot move them against gravity at all.
      T3 complete since Sept 2015.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by lunasicc42 View Post
        So I was correct all that time ago...? If a person is laying on their back, they can't voluntarily lift their legs... But the walking isn't "shuffle walking "? How is that? No hating; I mean I will gladly take any help over what I currently have... But do we have the whole picture here? Or is there more to know coming up
        Walking is programmed into our spinal cords via the central pattern generator.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by lunasicc42 View Post
          But do we have the whole picture here? Or is there more to know coming up
          The whole picture emerges when the data is compiled at the end of the clinical trial series. That's why the FDA requires them before a therapy goes to market for people and insurance companies to pay for.
          http://spinalcordresearchandadvocacy.wordpress.com/

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by lunasicc42 View Post
            So I was correct all that time ago...? If a person is laying on their back, they can't voluntarily lift their legs... But the walking isn't "shuffle walking "? How is that? No hating; I mean I will gladly take any help over what I currently have... But do we have the whole picture here? Or is there more to know coming up
            Also keep in mind these people are doing a very specific and very aggressive exercise program specifically tailored towards walking. Without hours and hours of walking for months, nobody is getting anything back.

            Maybe if there was a way to do the same aggressive exercise towards leg movements there would be results.

            That being said, if I'm lying on my back I have relatively weak leg movement. I do have some volitional control over my legs but nothing to write home about. And I'm able to walk fairly well for short distances. So I'm not sure how related the two things are...

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by GRAMMY View Post
              The whole picture emerges when the data is compiled at the end of the clinical trial series. That's why the FDA requires them before a therapy goes to market for people and insurance companies to pay for.

              Thats what I was always getting at but was hesitant to ask for fear of looking greedy or ungrateful.... Real walking, sensitivity etc... Is there more to the recovery than the integaconnect paper displays? I am certainly not demanding extra information 'now' but do we have that to look forward to?
              Attached Files
              "That's not smog! It's SMUG!! " - randy marsh, southpark

              "what???? , you don't 'all' wear a poop sac?.... DAMNIT BONNIE, YOU LIED TO ME ABOUT THE POOP SAC!!!! "


              2010 SCINet Clinical Trial Support Squad Member
              Please join me and donate a dollar a day at http://justadollarplease.org and copy and paste this message to the bottom of your signature

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                #8
                When I got my spinal cord injury in a instant I was paralyzed. I believe in the future we will be able to fix the nerves the same way in the future in a instant. Dr. Young I give him all the credit in the world for hanging in there. We have to start somewhere and that is how we discover new ways. You never no what you may learn or even stumble across. Keep up the great work Dr. Young.
                Art

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                  #9
                  Once we learn how to reconnect the axons, then stim - transcutaneous stim - will be needed for the retraining process. Remember, if they can get the axons connected, you're essentially in a newborn state as far as teaching the brain how to use these new connections.
                  T3 complete since Sept 2015.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    This video raises a lot of questions for me. As we all know, we're at different points on the continuum of life. Some young folks with a lot of life ahead of them may be able to commit more time and energy to this kind of effort. The physical demands are considerable. I wonder about the age of the candidates used in the studies and whether or not that matters. Also, what about modifying the routine - will 3 hours a day, six days a week for six months produce the same or similar results? Or will some other combination of physical therapy work that may give even better results? I guess what I'm wondering is how did they arrive at 666 - did someone just pick that number or did they determine through experiment the optimal strategy? And why can't it be adjusted? Were both men and women used in the trial? I assume both were used, but in so many situations all I see are men. I don't bring this up to create an issue, but are trials inclusive of all groups? We all want to benefit. From what Dr Young said in another thread I'm probably not going to be considered for surgery since I'm 69. But can using transcutaneous stimulation, along with intense physical therapy produce the same or similar results for all groups of people? Is that an approach that's being explored? And wouldn't it be easier to make that a clinical application than the surgical approach, even something that can be done with the help of friends and family, significantly reducing the expense of it all? I don't want to seem selfish, but I'd like to see something reach me in my lifetime. I've heard "we'll have a cure in 5 years" for so long I gave up hope of it happening in my lifetime, and I'm pretty certain I'm not the only one. Along comes transcutaneous stimulation offering so much, I hope it's not being forgotten as an alternative for us you may have missed the boat on the surgical procedure. Please, let's pursue both with equal passion.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by GreaseLightning View Post
                      I've heard "we'll have a cure in 5 years"
                      They said 500 years, you heard 5 years. So the solution is we just have to live a whole lot longer.
                      stephen@bike-on.com

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by GreaseLightning View Post
                        This video raises a lot of questions for me. As we all know, we're at different points on the continuum of life. Some young folks with a lot of life ahead of them may be able to commit more time and energy to this kind of effort. The physical demands are considerable. I wonder about the age of the candidates used in the studies and whether or not that matters. Also, what about modifying the routine - will 3 hours a day, six days a week for six months produce the same or similar results? Or will some other combination of physical therapy work that may give even better results? I guess what I'm wondering is how did they arrive at 666 - did someone just pick that number or did they determine through experiment the optimal strategy? And why can't it be adjusted? Were both men and women used in the trial? I assume both were used, but in so many situations all I see are men. I don't bring this up to create an issue, but are trials inclusive of all groups? We all want to benefit. From what Dr Young said in another thread I'm probably not going to be considered for surgery since I'm 69. But can using transcutaneous stimulation, along with intense physical therapy produce the same or similar results for all groups of people? Is that an approach that's being explored? And wouldn't it be easier to make that a clinical application than the surgical approach, even something that can be done with the help of friends and family, significantly reducing the expense of it all? I don't want to seem selfish, but I'd like to see something reach me in my lifetime. I've heard "we'll have a cure in 5 years" for so long I gave up hope of it happening in my lifetime, and I'm pretty certain I'm not the only one. Along comes transcutaneous stimulation offering so much, I hope it's not being forgotten as an alternative for us you may have missed the boat on the surgical procedure. Please, let's pursue both with equal passion.
                        GreaseLightning, I've worked for Wise for nine years, so I'll give some backround.

                        Download the PDF of the published paper from the trials in Hong Kong and Kunming- https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10....6368916X691411
                        If you look at the graph on pg 1930 (Kunming Trial) it gives the ages of the 20 participants, under that, how many years they have been injured. The range was 2 to 20 years post-injury, and there was no difference in recovery. All of these subjects received the 6-6-6 training.

                        If you look at the results of the first trial in Hong Kong (8 subjects/pg 1930), you will see a major difference, none had substantial recovery. This group did not do 6-6-6.

                        You asked, why 6-6-6?
                        Chinese neurosurgeon, Zhu Hui, began the 6-6-6 walking program many years ago, at the SCI Military Hospital in Kunming, China. Wise met her while he was there organizing ChinaSCINet. He was very impressed by the recoveryof these patients and decided to make it part of the trial. I visited there several years ago, very impressive.

                        We learned from the Hong Kong/Kunming trials, that without intensive training, the participants don't recover. Is 6-6-6 necessary to recover? We don't know. Are there less time consuming ways to exercise and get the same/better results, probably. We first need to confirm that this therapy is effective before we radically change any part of it. It is very possible that the cells + transcutaneous stimulation could be more effective that 6-6-6.

                        After the trial subjects are operated on, this therapy will be available for expanded compassionate use. Anyone can apply to the FDA to have it done, unfortunately, you would have to pay the cost, about 200K. After the trial is complete, Wise plans to hold trials for groups that aren't in the inclusion criteria. Those under the age of 17 and over 65, and those who have injuries above C5. There is a lot to do, we need more clinical trials in the US.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I walk every week and I still improve steadily after 4 years. Granted, at this rate I'll be walking independently sometime around the year 2335, but one can make progress.

                          More importantly, reconnected axons without training are just like those of a newborn - the brain won't know how to use them without extensive training.

                          One thing I'm curious about Jim, since we program our neural net as a baby by flailing, then crawling, then walking, why don't we try to replicate this with stem cell patients? Start with only mat work until the brain figures out what the new connections can do, etc.
                          T3 complete since Sept 2015.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Hey Mize, I believe some rehab places do begin with crawling. I don't think this is necessary though because walking is programmed into the spinal cord via the Central Pattern Generator. It really is like a reflex. Once you start, the body knows what to do. Of course, after SCI it takes much repetition. I saw it when I visited Kunming, and also in the videos of those in the trial. We don't need our brains to walk. When you cut a chicken's head off, it will run around until it runs out of blood.

                            Those that developed the 6-6-6 walking protocol don't believe in using any orthosis, because if you disrupt the natural movement, it prevents the CPG from cycling.

                            If you received cells, you would might walk better. We are planning to do incompletes also.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Hi Jim,

                              Any idea of when more details of the protocol to be used for the walking in the trials will be available?

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