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    #31
    Originally posted by Mize View Post
    Thanks, once again, Grammy. You always come through.

    So it appears that 40% recovery means getting back to 40% of normal function. That's truly impressive if reproducible.
    You're welcomed Mize.

    I'm not sure I'd give it that much weight. There's a lot of ways one could interpret what they mean depending if they are talking about the 40% starting at a rat BBB 0 or human Asia A complete. As Silver explained, they generally look at translational studies that start in a ripened 5 week old injury in the rat BBB 9 range (rather than finish) and go up from there for a possible translational therapy because of rats natural ability to heal without treatment. A natural recovery up to BBB 8 in 5 weeks with only a balloon injury may not be all that significant. Did the patients start out at as walking incompletes with sparing as their starting points? Did they already have partial bladder control and only cath once per day to start with? For instance, what does "practically total paralysis" mean exactly? The children could move their legs a bit and then move their legs a bit more later? Was there an actual Asia score conversion?

    Also, in the rat studies they didn't appear to measure any of the groups micturition in overnight metabolic cages as we do in the US labs nor provide any data from urodynamic recording the EMG potentials in the animal bladder to see what the level of recovery was. What was their output before and after? Without some hard data it's tough to sift through the reporters words and figure out. A high impact peer reviewed science journal would demand that. Silver along with many others work in SCI bladder recovery. You can catch video presentations on how that type of research is done and what the machines looks like in the U2FP library on Vimeo. It's really quite fascinating and very helpful as a learning tool. This is a video showing it at this LINK about half way through. A relevant bladder paper is HERE.

    If I were a scientist and wanting to replicate or enhance the theory...I'd order up a handful of rats along with some LA and hand the project off to a student as a one semester study. That's not always possible however. Both Silver and Frank Bradke have looked into repurposing cancer drugs for SCI but that's an entirely different subject...

    More than anything, we would need to see a science journal publication containing the human trial data to see if any results could be deemed solid, otherwise it's just internet hearsay. It is imperative that we understand the differences in what we are reading.
    Last edited by GRAMMY; 25 Oct 2016, 12:24 PM.
    http://spinalcordresearchandadvocacy.wordpress.com/

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      #32
      I just spoke by phone with Jose Luis Quintanar Phd, he told me that the clinical trial is open and recruiting thera are more than 45 people treating and no waiting lis until december , the injection is given 1 time every month for three months, suspended, evaluated, and reinjected for another 3 months until 1 year and a half, the injection is intramuscular, publications in English are in PubMed as JL Quintanar, the article in question is about to be published.

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        #33
        Originally posted by chilacas View Post
        I just spoke by phone with Jose Luis Quintanar Phd, he told me that the clinical trial is open and recruiting thera are more than 45 people treating and no waiting lis until december , the injection is given 1 time every month for three months, suspended, evaluated, and reinjected for another 3 months until 1 year and a half, the injection is intramuscular, publications in English are in PubMed as JL Quintanar, the article in question is about to be published.
        Can you find out dosage levels and where the intramuscular injections are?

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          #34
          Originally posted by chilacas View Post
          I just spoke by phone with Jose Luis Quintanar Phd, he told me that the clinical trial is open and recruiting thera are more than 45 people treating and no waiting lis until december , the injection is given 1 time every month for three months, suspended, evaluated, and reinjected for another 3 months until 1 year and a half, the injection is intramuscular, publications in English are in PubMed as JL Quintanar, the article in question is about to be published.
          Thanks

          I agree with Grammy. 40% is quite elusive. Do you know if there are any film of improvements?
          Debating on CareCure is like participating in the special-olympics. You may win, but you're still disabled.

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by chilacas View Post
            I just spoke by phone with Jose Luis Quintanar Phd, he told me that the clinical trial is open and recruiting thera are more than 45 people treating and no waiting lis until december , the injection is given 1 time every month for three months, suspended, evaluated, and reinjected for another 3 months until 1 year and a half, the injection is intramuscular, publications in English are in PubMed as JL Quintanar, the article in question is about to be published.
            Originally posted by Pauly1 View Post
            Can you find out dosage levels and where the intramuscular injections are?
            Answering my own question, it appears they are using 7.5mg monthly intramuscular doses over 3 months.

            Found out since we have the following keywords in this thread about this treatment:

            - leuprolide acetate is an anti-cancer treatment
            - it's a GnRH agonist
            - treatment is as a 1-monthly intramuscular injection for 3 months

            Googling these led me to the following products:

            LUPRON DEPOT (leuprolide acetate) : http://www.lupron.com/prescribing-in...ion.aspx?ref=3
            ELIGARD (leuprolide acetate): https://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailyme...9-e0a26d32481d

            The 7.5mg/month dosing snippet for LUPRON DEPOT is attached, which is the same for ELIGARD. As for overdosage, the ELIGARD page advises:

            In clinical trials using daily subcutaneous injections of leuprolide acetate in patients with prostate cancer, doses as high as 20 mg/day for up to two years caused no adverse effects ...
            This may be a good headstart for anybody wanting to do their own investigation. Purported 40% SCI recovery eclipses anything else I've seen.
            Attached Files
            Last edited by Pauly1; 26 Oct 2016, 8:45 AM.

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              #36
              But again, the reporter wrote:

              "established that the recovery rate is variable, since it depends on factors like the size, level and time of the injury have treated people. It is estimated at an average percentage of 40 percent regeneration and its effects are permanent."

              So, until you see some hard data on the SCI they used it on and the actual circumstances, that could mean little or nothing for some people. For instance, an immediate treatment on a very mild cervical acute injury may or may not result in the higher score. An older severe chronic thoracic may result in little to nothing because of the expanded lesion and glial scarring.

              I wouldn't peddle this as an automatic overall 40% recovery for all SCI since injuries are so vastly different and data needs to be gathered in an actual trial.
              http://spinalcordresearchandadvocacy.wordpress.com/

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                #37
                Originally posted by chilacas View Post
                I just spoke by phone with Jose Luis Quintanar Phd, he told me that the clinical trial is open and recruiting thera are more than 45 people treating and no waiting lis until december , the injection is given 1 time every month for three months, suspended, evaluated, and reinjected for another 3 months until 1 year and a half, the injection is intramuscular, publications in English are in PubMed as JL Quintanar, the article in question is about to be published.
                What is the location of the open clinical trial recruiting page?
                http://spinalcordresearchandadvocacy.wordpress.com/

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                  #38
                  Pauly1, you thinking about sticking yourself with some leuprolide acetate?

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by Pauly1 View Post
                    Answering my own question, it appears they are using 7.5mg monthly intramuscular doses over 3 months.
                    Oh my... You're reading tested cancer dosages instead of what they may have actually used on SCI for 1-1/2 years. The product you're talking about comes in 5 different dosages of 3.75mg to 11.25 in 6 packs to 48 pack injections. That's a range from 22.5mg to 67.5mg and you don't know the toxic level in humans.
                    http://spinalcordresearchandadvocacy.wordpress.com/

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by Barrington314mx View Post
                      Pauly1, you thinking about sticking yourself with some leuprolide acetate?
                      The ELIGARD page and LUPRON DEPOT page may give any male a fright:

                      LUPRON DEPOT may cause impotence.

                      In males, testosterone is reduced to below castrate threshold (≤50 ng/dL). These decreases occur within two to four weeks after initiation of treatment. Long-term studies have shown that continuation of therapy with leuprolide acetate maintains testosterone below the castrate level for up to seven years.
                      Originally posted by GRAMMY View Post
                      Oh my... You're reading tested cancer dosages instead of what they may have actually used on SCI for 1-1/2 years. The product you're talking about comes in 5 different dosages of 3.75mg to 11.25 in 6 packs to 48 pack injections. That's a range from 22.5mg to 67.5mg and you don't know the toxic level in humans.
                      The LUPRON DEPOT page has 4 monthly dosages as following. I concentrate on monthly because the Mexican study has monthly doses for 3 months.

                      - WOMEN Endometriosis or Fibroids: 3.75mg
                      - CHILDREN Central Precocious Puberty: 7.5mg (<25kg), 11.25mg (<37.5kg) , 15mg (>37.5kg)
                      - MEN Prostate Cancer: 7.5mg

                      The uncertainty about dosage and the decrease in testosterone (plus other side effects like bone thinning) means need to wait for more info. Thankfully that may be forthcoming soon:

                      Originally posted by chilacas View Post
                      I just spoke by phone with Jose Luis Quintanar Phd ... the article in question is about to be published.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by Pauly1 View Post
                        The ELIGARD page and LUPRON DEPOT page may give any male a fright:
                        5.1 Tumor Flare ELIGARD 7.5 mg 22.5 mg 30 mg, like other GnRH agonists, causes a transient increase in serum concentrations of testosterone during the first week of treatment. ELIGARD 45 mg causes a transient increase in serum concentrations of testosterone during the first two weeks of treatment. Patients may experience worsening of symptoms or onset of new signs and symptoms during the first few weeks of treatment, including bone pain, neuropathy, hematuria, or bladder outlet obstruction.

                        Cases of ureteral obstruction and/or spinal cord compression, which may contribute to paralysis with or without fatal complications, have been observed in the palliative treatment of advanced prostate cancer using GnRH agonists.

                        Patients with metastatic vertebral lesions and/or with urinary tract obstruction should be closely observed during the first few weeks of therapy. If spinal cord compression or ureteral obstruction develops, standard treatment of these complications should be instituted.

                        Increased risk of developing myocardial infarction, sudden cardiac death and stroke has been reported in association with use of GnRH agonists in men. The risk appears low based on the reported odds ratios, and should be evaluated carefully along with cardiovascular risk factors when determining a treatment for patients with prostate cancer. Patients receiving a GnRH agonist should be monitored for symptoms and signs suggestive of development of cardiovascular disease and be managed according to current clinical practice.

                        5.3 Hyperglycemia and Diabetes Hyperglycemia and an increased risk of developing diabetes have been reported in men receiving GnRH agonists. Hyperglycemia may represent development of diabetes mellitus or worsening of glycemic control in patients with diabetes. Monitor blood glucose and/or glycosylated hemoglobin (HbA1c) periodically in patients receiving a GnRH agonist and manage with current practice for treatment of hyperglycemia or diabetes.

                        5.4 Cardiovascular Diseases
                        Increased risk of developing myocardial infarction, sudden cardiac death and stroke has been reported in association with use of GnRH agonists in men. The risk appears low based on the reported odds ratios, and should be evaluated carefully along with cardiovascular risk factors when determining a treatment for patients with prostate cancer. Patients receiving a GnRH agonist should be monitored for symptoms and signs suggestive of development of cardiovascular disease and be managed according to current clinical practice.
                        http://spinalcordresearchandadvocacy.wordpress.com/

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                          #42
                          Originally posted by chilacas View Post
                          I just spoke by phone with Jose Luis Quintanar Phd, he told me that the clinical trial is open and recruiting thera are more than 45 people treating and no waiting lis until december , the injection is given 1 time every month for three months, suspended, evaluated, and reinjected for another 3 months until 1 year and a half, the injection is intramuscular, publications in English are in PubMed as JL Quintanar, the article in question is about to be published.
                          Any chance you can ask what dosage they are using at what increments? eg: 7.5mg intramuscular injections every month for 3 months. The English translated article is also stating low side effects from their leuprolide acetate treatment. We've discovered the LUPRON DEPOT and ELIGARD products containing leuprolide acetate have listed somewhat serious side effects.

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                            #43
                            yes i will call them and ask as them at this time they are out of town.

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                              #44
                              Originally posted by chilacas View Post
                              yes i will call them and ask as them at this time they are out of town.
                              chilacas, did you have any chance to call JL Quintanar to find out dosage and sideffect details? Can you ask them what the SCI results are incompletes and completes? The touted 40% improvement appears to be the maximum outcome. What is the minimum outcome they've seen?

                              Comment


                                #45
                                yes, pauly1, they're now out of town i will ask all your question when they're back.

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