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    #31
    Originally posted by Andrew K Fletcher:

    Marmalady

    The problem with this statement is that many of the people who are taking part in this study are actually members of this forum and have posted previously on other topics, and in the case of Foster are known personally by others on this forum.

    Andrew

    "Go With The Flow"
    "Go With The Flow"
    Find us on Facebook using inclined bed therapy as a search term.
    sigpic

    Comment


      #32
      "AKF, will you please put a lid on it and go away."
      He can be here as all others.

      If not liking his whatever, nobody is required to read it. Or to shift bed angle position.

      Even if you regard him as dangerous, if someone tells me to do this or that, I do not regard this as dangerous. As me, and also not others, are not obliged to do this.


      If someone comes and tells me, put on every day another facial painting, in between try to sleep with your feet hooked somehow to the ceiling, alike a bat, stick your head 2 minutes under water, if you don't like someone, just grunt at him like a pig, and watch facial reactions, and if someone tries to convert you to his religion, whenever you are expected to say something, just make a noise alike a frog ...
      and this will make your life less boring,
      and therefore is a life quality improvement,

      I am in no form obliged to do this.

      And if I decide, yeah, I gonna try this!
      ... Then this is my decision.

      As an adult,
      irregardless if another were to tell me, this is totally stupid to just make frog noises at someone trying to convert one to his religion,
      and another finding it a brilliant idea,
      it would be my decision.

      I am neither obliged to participate in a study on whatever,
      nor am I obliged to ignore someone, just because a third person does not like it.

      As adults here I think us can each individually decide,
      if someone is suggesting an experiment,
      if we (don't) like to participate.


      And, BTW, even if I am not participating in Andrew's experiment, I do per se not exclude that it might not have also some good effects on my spine.
      But I'm not SCI, so this does not seem that relevant,
      and I have my own so far preferred sleep position patterings.


      Anyway, irregardless if finding something an interesting method, or a quite daft thingie,
      if someone is asking, if anyone is wishing to test it,
      no one is forced to do it.
      Nor is one the dicator over all others how to decide there.

      We are adult persons, and can decide this each for ourself.


      "You've said your piece numerous times."
      Agreed. But I can't throw "first stones" here.
      And even if he were to daily write the same sentence, alike:"Tilt yer beds!",
      does not mean I have to daily read it.

      And if I daily were to read the same repeat loop of whomever,
      then that is my decision.

      It's not like anyone would force me to do this.

      "For now you're wasting time and space."
      I assume if he were to write several hundred pages, that'd be 1-2 Megabyte storing place. Modern computers are on Gigabyte, partially seeming to head for Terabyte. So I perceive no particular space problem with this.
      One can see on the headline the thread is to do with him, and what topic.
      So it can be read what it to do with, before clicking it.
      If someone wishes to spend his time on this, that is that person's thingie.
      Same for him, if he wishes to spend parts of his life with repeat loops, till they get on the nerves of others.

      You might also not appreciate it, if someone were to tell you, stop what you like and buzz off this site.

      "Is this censorship? Hopefully."
      And take your censorship ideals straight along.
      As no one forced you to read here.
      So if you don't like his usual style, and read it anyway, that is your stupidity.


      I assume you did not appreciate the last lines either.
      But it might mirror maybe a bit, that with aggressive tone, not that much might be reached.
      He has emotions, too, and you could write some stuff with some more kindness.
      (Grin, self sarcastically, and yeah, guess I'm just the right one with my diplomacy levels and softness of a morning-star to lecture about such. ;-))

      It is not like he came here to insult people.


      "if I kept up this creepy voodoo pompous witchcraft crap"

      What voodoo and witchcraft crap?


      BTW, once heard a resurrection story from Voodoo, that really impressed me.
      Story went, woman already dead, one from Voodoo got her back to life, but then she was so brain damaged, that she could not care for herself anymore, and landed in some institution.


      "fraud and a phony. (...) Because you stink of desperation."
      Desperation does not make something a fraud or phoney.

      This is your personal interpretation.

      And your comments about non-scientificness, well, your comments here are not either. So why do not you not ahead with a good example of the demanded scientifiness, and prove in science style, study / studies soandso, by soandso et al, year soandso, that he is wrong.

      If you cannot do this, and just go by belief,
      even if you might be right on various, this is still not qualify as a scientific method.
      Then his of searching candidates to test his method out, still does more.

      However alike shoving unwished for results aside,
      as in one case he sort of seemed to do, does not


      And with your proof demands, well, that is what he is trying to do here.
      Proof something.

      Alike first being aggressive at him, that he tries to find candidates to test his method, to try to find proof,
      and next ranting that he has no proof.
      This is seeming illogical.

      "You do not take your time to earn your way, by respect, into the community but in fact take the opposite approach and demand to be heard."

      But as unrespectful as you are, and as little as you just tolerate a rather differing human into the community.
      you could also regard yourself in this.
      And on a level you demand here, too, to be heard. And not respectfully.


      You seem to demand, what yourself you are not giving the other way around.

      "But you continue to try and jam your ridiculous theories down our throats."
      Even if I do not agree with various opinions of his, he is entitled to have differing opinions from me, as I am entitled to have differing opionions from him.

      And how can he try to jam something down my throat, if I am not obliged to read it?
      Not alike he is holding a pistol to my head, demanding I read his texts and before this incline my bed.


      Have you ever compared who seems the more impolite of the two of you?

      The headline says what it is about.
      You are not forced to read here, if you do not like it.

      As is no one else.

      So if for any reason not like Andrew Fletcher's posts
      or yet another whatever about why according to his opinion inclined beds might be beneficial, and then going into theories by many regarded as not correct,
      it is not like anyone is forcing you to read this.

      As said, the headline is clear to whoever can read it, what it is about.
      Why do you not go into this with respect first more yourself?

      Or maybe first of all more tolerance?


      I certainly think quite differing than him in a lot.
      But if us all were thinking just the same stuff, would not make humanity more interesting. It is part of this diversity, that is making humanity more interesting. That us think and believe so differingly.


      (And I apolize for not having been particulariy considerate in how to express some stuff.
      But he has not come here to insult others. And therefore I regard it wrong if you insult him like this.)

      Comment


      • #33
        Acid,

        We can not insult Andrew, but you are free to openly insult Dr. Wise Young?? That makes no sense.

        You have no spinal cord injury, nor do you know or care for anybody that does. You do not belong here.

        You and R. should take your LSD and go elsewhere to another 'room' and fill it with gibberish, unless you can be civil to the moderators and Dr. Young.

        Comment


          #34
          When you are down from your illusions somewhen, note that R. is seriously studying physics in university and therefore is not out for taking LSD.

          Apart from this,
          there are differing ways to insult people.

          There is a big difference for example telling someone,
          I find this and that incorrect of what you do,
          and,
          just ranting off strings of insults.

          I do not object if Andrew is told he is repeating contents over and over again. That seems a correct statement.

          But I object this primitivistic aggressive ... . That also you display there.

          Alike in your illusions going off about R. taking LSD.
          He has physics in his head at the moment.
          And is right now sitting over some stuff, where I assume if I were to look, it might all in all look alike rather Greek to me. ;-)

          You delve into your illusions and build up aggressions and primtive rants on these, that speaks more about yourself.


          With the "nor do you care for anybody that does" how have you established that, the same illusionary way, that R. is supposed to take LSD and write gibberish here?


          But interesting with your aggressive nutter rant how deep you are into illusions.

          Comment


            #35
            Apart from this, censerors and the like do not have any preference here.

            Also you might overlook the difference between, what on this site might be called throwing stinking socks aimed centrally at the other,
            and arguing over differing aspects,
            alike if someone calls himself a scientist, he could aspire scientific debate methods. Which do not consist of I BELIEVE and THEREFORE IT IS.


            And even if being at: I believe, ...,
            it could be extended to "I believe this aspect is wrong, because ...
            and that aspect is wrong, because ... . "
            In other words with W.Y. parts are debates also about styles.


            Anyway, I think this is alike Andrew's topic site here, and a central issue of his being something alike inclined bed test homo chimps being looked for.

            And not exactly how many stinking socks one can throw at each other.


            ;-)


            (How do you feel about opening under Members the topic Flaming?
            Then if wishing to discuss this on, I assume we could do it there.)

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by Andrew K Fletcher:

              Kathy

              Thank you for joining us, and for letting the forum know.

              The two main information threads are now locked up, but can be found using the search tool.

              Hi Andrew,
              I have begun the study two weeks ago, but I was only inclined 4 inches,

              If you could start your own thread and post to it each time you want to let people know how you are doing on the inclined bed, it would be helpful and would build a clearer picture of any changes.

              And who knows, perhaps the minority of spoilers may even leave your thread alone.

              The thing that puzzles me here on carecure forums is: When people post their improvements, one would expect people in the same medical situation to begin asking people who are actually trying it, what its like, what the differences are and whether they attribute any changes to using the therapy? Instead, we appear to get a few personal attacks, presumably designed to discourage anyone from trying this free therapy?

              Andrew

              "Go With The Flow"

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by Andrew K Fletcher:

                Kathy

                Thank you for joining us, and for letting the forum know.

                The two main information threads are now locked up, but can be found using the search tool.

                If you could start your own thread and post to it each time you want to let people know how you are doing on the inclined bed, it would be helpful and would build a clearer picture of any changes.

                And who knows, perhaps the minority of spoilers may even leave your thread alone.

                The thing that puzzles me here on carecure forums is: When people post their improvements, one would expect people in the same medical situation to begin asking people who are actually trying it, what its like, what the differences are and whether they attribute any changes to using the therapy? Instead, we appear to get a few personal attacks, presumably designed to discourage anyone from trying this free therapy?

                Andrew

                "Go With The Flow"
                Hi Andrew,
                I started the study 2 weeks ago, but my bed was raised only 4 inches. I got the extra 2 inch block last night.

                I will start a new thread like you suggest.

                I would like to say that I have noticed changes even with 4 inches, I feel like I have more balance and stability in my chair. At first I had night sweats for a week between 4-9am, they have stopped now. My feet are starting to become less swollen now, and I sleep well, and I am warmer at night too.
                I will start a thread this week.

                Thanks,
                Kathy

                Comment


                  #38
                  Marmalady, I found parts of your points interesting.
                  Particularily as certain posting seems to me alike A organized advertizing.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by Kathy65:

                    Originally posted by Andrew K Fletcher:
                    Kathy

                    Thank you for joining us, and for letting the forum know.

                    The two main information threads are now locked up, but can be found using the search tool.

                    The attacks won't bother me. I am doing my own thing, and have seen a positive side to the study so far. If this incline bed experiment does as much as preventing a uti I'd be very happy.
                    I will post daily progress reports starting Tuesday.
                    Thanks,
                    Kathy

                    Hi Andrew,
                    I have begun the study two weeks ago, but I was only inclined 4 inches,

                    If you could start your own thread and post to it each time you want to let people know how you are doing on the inclined bed, it would be helpful and would build a clearer picture of any changes.

                    And who knows, perhaps the minority of spoilers may even leave your thread alone.

                    The thing that puzzles me here on carecure forums is: When people post their improvements, one would expect people in the same medical situation to begin asking people who are actually trying it, what its like, what the differences are and whether they attribute any changes to using the therapy? Instead, we appear to get a few personal attacks, presumably designed to discourage anyone from trying this free therapy?

                    Andrew

                    "Go With The Flow"

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by Red_1_Canada:

                      Yikes....
                      you all need something else to do.
                      Let all these threads about Incline Bed die PLEASE!

                      Who really cares if it works or not...?
                      I sure as hell don't cause I'm waiting for Wise to say jump and he hasn't said it amd won't say it for a while.

                      Untill then I'll keep listening and ?hope_ing?
                      Leave AKF alone and maybe he will disapere?
                      If you hate the Andrew/incline bed thread so much why do you read it and interact, I can't figure out why you waste your time to bash it.
                      Kathy

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Good evening Wise

                        At long last I have managed to find what I was looking for and will try to give you an
                        explanation, though as you say it seems hard to believe, but every word of it is true.

                        It all began in 1998 when my left ankle kept coming out of joint and I ended up on the
                        ground, I was told it was disc trouble, it was operated on and my ankle was no longer
                        weak, I went home and told to return in eight weeks. In the beginning of that week I
                        rolled over in bed and there was a crunch in my back, I rang the surgeon who said do
                        not worry it was probably muscle he had cut into, during the week the pain got worse
                        and worse, on the Sunday night I had to call the doctor who gave me an injection at
                        midnight, then got me admitted Tavistock hospital with another injection at 4am the
                        pain grew in intensity, I kept asking for painkillers but was only told it was due at
                        4am I could not have it early, I was up down, sitting, standing walking there was no
                        way I could get any relief, at 0340am a pain came from my right hip down my right
                        leg across from my right foot to the left and up to my left buttock and into my spine.
                        About five seconds later another pain followed it, I called the nurse who told me that
                        was not possible as the was nothing joining my left and right feet. Later I tried to go
                        to the toilet but my legs would not hold me, my injection arrived at 4am.
                        My wife managed to get me into Derriford at 1700hrs they catheterised me and were
                        amazed at the amount they got out of my bladder, I was not catheterised in Tavistock.
                        The higher disc had slipped down and pinched the nerve, and I have not walked since
                        that day, it was 39hrs before my second operation.

                        I went to Rookwood in Wales where I was treated really well but as there was a DVT
                        in my right lower leg it was quite a long time before I could get about in a wheelchair,
                        everyone in that hospital were wonderful and so understanding. There were times of
                        feeling depressed at the thought of spending the rest of my life with no more
                        movement than I had. One day when I was feeling that way a young boy came
                        hurtling down the ward did a wheely a 360 spin and said "I was worse than you when
                        I came in". That changed my whole outlook on my future and if ever I feel down I
                        think of him and how lucky I am.

                        Before leaving Rookwood I was told that things would improve for two years only
                        after that things would slow down or even stop.

                        After two years there was no feelings from the waist down, hardly any movement if I
                        wanted to move in bed they could only move them by hand, my legs and feet were ice
                        cold from the waist down but in the morning the legs were warm yet my feet were
                        still icy that was of course feeling by hand. Phantom pains were horrendous and
                        when they were active, it felt as though a nail attached to the mains would hit me
                        anywhere from the waist down any time from 1 to 10 seconds but the nearer it got to
                        10 seconds the more powerful the shock was.

                        I had to self catheterise and manual removal, but I had the hang of that before leaving
                        Rookwood, after two years things did improve but very slowly.

                        It was about 8 years before I was given the cutting about raising the bed however
                        being the type of person that will have a go at most things I asked a neighbour to
                        come in and fix it for me, I have moved it since using my car jack it was easier than
                        expected, anyhow I got ready for bed put my needle and cyclamorph on the bedside
                        table, watched the news at ten as always next thing I woke at 8am the tv was still on
                        and the injection had not been used, that is the honest truth, for the next few nights I
                        had the injection by my bed but slept like a top, this went on for about two months but
                        then one night I got what felt like a spear sunk straight into my left buttock and the
                        electric pains were back this did not move it was always in the left buttock back on
                        the cyclamorph again. The it went as fast as it came but I could twitch the left
                        buttock then at various times it worked down the left leg into the right and reversed
                        the initial shocks I called these nerve regeneration pains they have been round the
                        circuit three or four times the only bits that do not improve are the ankles.

                        Time goes so fast but about rwo years ago I started to be able to urinate normally but
                        still finished off with the catheter now I do not bother with the catheter at all , no
                        more urine infections and bowel movement is now normal, muscles in the stomach
                        work normally.

                        I think that covers the points that you doubted many other improvement happen and I
                        tend not to notice them until suddenly I find something I could not do is now possible.

                        Here is something that is really amazing. Two Dutch friends were staying with me
                        and we went out for a lunch meal and we ended up with gateaux with loads of cream
                        everything was sweet in fact it was a great meal, we then drank a few bottles of red
                        wine , we turned in about midnight, during breakfast one of them started talking in
                        Dutch and left the table, asking the other one what was wrong it turned out she was a
                        diabetic and had not taken her medication, when she came back she had done her
                        tests and everything was fine and normal. The bed was my spare bed that was raised
                        8 inches at the head.

                        I think the big problem is that no one can understand anything that is free as in this
                        day and age everyone is waiting for the rip off , well if you have blocks in your garden
                        it costs nothing, in a builders merchants down here they cost £1.86.

                        Please note I am not a Doctor or anything to do with the medical profession.

                        Please feel free to call me by phone.

                        My regards

                        John
                        Originally posted by Wise Young:

                        John,

                        I don't want to contradict your personal experience. However, what you say cannot be true for most people who have neuropathic pain. If neuropathic pain can be so easily eliminated and within one night, we would be seeing thousands of reports of this. Lots of people sleep on a slight incline. If neuropathic pain does respond to gravity like this, there would not be such skepticism. Likewise, if sleeping on a 8-inch incline brought back bladder function, sensory function, and motor function, we would have thousands of people saying that it works. I am skeptical.

                        Wise.
                        John Cann
                        John Cann

                        Comment


                          #42
                          John,

                          Thank you very much for your report. I am glad that you have recovered. Your experience of the injury sounds like a harrowing one and it sounds very much like you injured one or more spinal roots and probably the spinal cord as well.

                          Please understand that I believe your experience. I am, however, skeptical of the claim that this approach would cure many people who currently have neuropathic pain and spinal cord injury. There are millions of people with neuropathic pain and spinal cord injury, several thousand of whom attend this site every week. If raising the head of the bed by 8 inches eliminates pain and restores function to the degree claimed, we would be flooded with hundreds of posts to this effect. This simply has not happened.

                          One possible reason why these claims are raising such ire on this site is the potential false hope that it raises. I must say also that I am not at all convinced by the explanation of the effect. The attribution of regeneration and functional restoration to a slight incline is simply not credible.

                          As I pointed out above and below, I am glad that you have recovered. I do not doubt your recovery, only the claim that sleeping on a slight incline would eliminate neuropathic pain and regenerate the spinal cord.

                          Wise.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Wise

                            RE: QUOTE
                            If raising the head of the bed by 8 inches eliminates pain and restores function to the degree claimed, we would be flooded with hundreds of posts to this effect. This simply has not happened.

                            Despite around 40 people with spinal cord injuries asking for information and indicating that they would like to join this study, only a handful of people to my knowledge are actually trying this. Out of these few people, most of them have posted some results from this therapy on the cure forum. I had hoped for a larger group of people willing to participate. Even so, with such a small group of people actually trying this, it does make the results so far even more compelling.
                            We are now awaiting further reports from people as and when they feel they have something to share with the Forum. I suspect that there have already been changes in pain levels among people on the study.

                            As for any significant recovery from spinal cord injury being reported since this study began in April, it is simply too soon to expect this, given the case histories presented with the original two threads.

                            John stated that he had not walked since his injury, this is not quite true, as he did walk on Carlton Television between two horizontal bars, and was seen by some three million viewers. John saying that he has not walked was referring to being unable to walk without the bars for support and stability.

                            As for false hopes raised from this research, I have waited several years patiently observing the changes on a handful of people with spinal cord injuries before testing it on a larger scale. I did this so that I would not raise any false hopes. It is very difficult to find people with a spinal cord injury willing to try sleeping on an inclined bed. Let alone finding three people living within a few miles of each other and all feeling that they have nothing to lose by giving this a try. At the end of the day, if it does not deliver the same results as the pilot study, at least we have tested it and it did not cost several $millon's to test it and not a single animal has died testing it either.

                            IMPORTANT:

                            If you are trying this therapy please let the group know how you are doing by posting your experiences on the forum. This will greatly aid my research and help others to consider joining us.

                            Foster, how is your son doing now?

                            Hallina, how is your daughter doing?

                            Apollo, how are you doing?

                            Kathy65, how are you doing?

                            Defiler, got your bed up yet?

                            Dusty, got your bed up yet?

                            Alan?

                            MikeC?

                            Andrew

                            "Go With The Flow"
                            Find us on Facebook using inclined bed therapy as a search term.
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Mr. Fletcher,

                              Aren't you trying to get a patent on an inclined bed you've developed? Isn't this the real reason for this bogus study? Shame on you and those you've recruited to bolster your claims.

                              Deb
                              "Save the last dance for me!"

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by Debbie7:

                                Mr. Fletcher,

                                Aren't you trying to get a patent on an inclined bed you've developed?
                                But no, he already has a bed developed, he just needs some people to bolster his claims that it works. Following is a cut and paste from one of his links he provided about his theory...it is interesting that he is having some of the SCI community apparently using his theory without concern about the "inherant risks" quoted in the article associated with trying this without his bed (not a good thing to have to deal with being paralysed). I think Mr. Fletcher should loan out samples of his bed to anyone interested in trying out his theory. Oh wait, doing his 'research' this way doesnt cost him anything on the astronomically unlikely chance that it might work, so why dont we 'give it a go' and hopefully on the odd chance it does work, sales will take off.


                                Fletcher's bed......


                                Birth of a New Bed
                                The inclined sleep therapy concept is now incorporated in a top quality bed, with a foot board built in, which is available under the name of Naturesway Sleep System, and is under application for a patent. The incline is built into the bed and takes away the risks that are inherent in raising a flat bed, which are:

                                1.The difficulty of cleaning. 2. The lack of built in stability. 3. The stress put on beds designed for a horizontal position can break. 4. Mattresses can slip off the base of the bed. 5. Mattresses are covered with a slippery material (The Naturesway mattress is covered in a slip resistant fabric to address this problem).

                                Andrew K Fletcher, Summer Haze, 26 Berry drive, Paignton, Devon, TQ3 3QW UK © Feb1998

                                Comment

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