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Paralysed patients regain voluntary movement with spinal stimulation

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    Originally posted by Barrington314mx View Post
    Answer me this; If they called you tomorrow to come be a participant in the study, would you let them implant you with this device and give it a go?
    No. With the information that is public, I would not. If in the future this device somehow shows that it can bring back useful movement then I would strongly consider. Being able to lift a leg (probably in just one degree of motion) without ANY sensation is not really useful, except maybe building up quad muscle & circulation. I?m not trashing this device. It may one day prove useful, especially in a combo treatment. It may also be of great use to incomplete SCI.

    Comment


      Originally posted by paramoto View Post
      Want to know more!!!!
      http://www.inspiredsciforum.com/thre...pinal-injuries

      http://www.inspiredsciforum.com/thre...ng-results-sci

      Comment


        Hi Grammy,
        I watch the TED Talk video w/Joel Burdick you posted on Inspired. The video was recorded January 2013. Toward the end of the video he mentions in passing that they had implanted a patient for upper body/arm paralysis with “positive results” have you heard anything further about this patient or these positive results?

        With this video being recorded in January 2013 I am somewhat surprised this has all happen under the CareCure radar… or perhaps I have not been paying attenton and it’s just been below my radar.

        Comment


          Originally posted by NWC4 View Post
          Hi Grammy,
          I watch the TED Talk video w/Joel Burdick you posted on Inspired. The video was recorded January 2013. Toward the end of the video he mentions in passing that they had implanted a patient for upper body/arm paralysis with ?positive results? have you heard anything further about this patient or these positive results?

          With this video being recorded in January 2013 I am somewhat surprised this has all happen under the CareCure radar? or perhaps I have not been paying attenton and it?s just been below my radar.
          I'm not sure which of the Joel Brudick video's you saw. Here I posted several. I think the top one is the most recent out of Caltech...
          http://spinalcordresearchandadvocacy...-joel-burdick/

          Yes, it's my understanding there are positive results. I don't believe a paper has been published yet on it that I know of. So much of what we happen to read in the press is actually old news and the science has moved on much further in many cases. An experiment gets completed, data is compiled, time to write down the data, analyze, send in for publication, publisher wants changes or additional data so sends the scientists back to the computer, send it back, months before it's lined up for publication if another revision isn't requested... The whole publishing thing and media releases are then way behind what the scientist is actually working on. The lag time can be around a year if not more. You'll notice patient 4 was marked February of 2013, over a year ago. More people have been used in these studies since then as was explained during the Q & A at around 40 minutes. Louisville is looking at bowel, bladder, respiratory studies in addition to the cardiac piece and then the upper body studies are being done out at UCLA.

          This was published last month where they gathered data on spasticity.
          Modification of spasticity by transcutaneous spinal cord stimulation in individuals with incomplete spinal cord injury
          http://www.maneyonline.com/doi/abs/1...13Y.0000000149
          Last edited by GRAMMY; 20 Apr 2014, 10:41 PM.
          http://spinalcordresearchandadvocacy.wordpress.com/

          Comment


            This is interesting. I am hoping that at least one of the next 8 candidates will be female.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Curt Leatherbee View Post
              Yes, but you don't know, they could have been very incomplete just on the borderline of being able to move, this could have been why these 4 individuals where hand selected is all I'm saying. It sure attracted a lot of attention on the news front and that may have been the intention of the people who set up these trials for whatever reason.
              Curt, did you read the study? You could not be more wrong. Not only were they all ASIA A or B (which is not anywhere close to being "on the border of able to move", A or B means no visibly detectable muscle contractions), but they did TMS on them and EMG confirmed there was nothing getting from the brain down to the muscle. These four were selected because of how motor complete they were. They went beyond a standard neurological exam to make sure these guys were as motor complete as possible.

              Also, the reason I'm guessing no doctors or researchers chime in on this thread is because, why would they? They don't need to get their information from google - any doctor or researcher who knows or cares about this research will have access to the journal article itself, and can probably get in contact with the research team themselves. That's where the best information will come from.

              Comment


                As I stated in another post, I am playing Devils advocate here, somebody has to be the "Ralph Nader" here and scrutinize this research. I have seen way to many times where these type of things cannot be duplicated, don't really work or whatever over the years to let myself get too excited as I was when this news first broke as you can tell I was in the beginning of this thread. Of course we all want to see really good things happen with SCI research. All the people these days who will end up SCI, I've never talked with so many people lately who are really into street bikes, that sort of thing. We need something and we need it soon. We so desperately need treatments for SCI.
                Originally posted by tomsonite View Post
                Curt, did you read the study? You could not be more wrong. Not only were they all ASIA A or B (which is not anywhere close to being "on the border of able to move", A or B means no visibly detectable muscle contractions), but they did TMS on them and EMG confirmed there was nothing getting from the brain down to the muscle. These four were selected because of how motor complete they were. They went beyond a standard neurological exam to make sure these guys were as motor complete as possible.

                Also, the reason I'm guessing no doctors or researchers chime in on this thread is because, why would they? They don't need to get their information from google - any doctor or researcher who knows or cares about this research will have access to the journal article itself, and can probably get in contact with the research team themselves. That's where the best information will come from.
                "Life is about how you
                respond to not only the
                challenges you're dealt but
                the challenges you seek...If
                you have no goals, no
                mountains to climb, your
                soul dies".~Liz Fordred

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Nowhere Man View Post
                  No. With the information that is public, I would not. If in the future this device somehow shows that it can bring back useful movement then I would strongly consider. Being able to lift a leg (probably in just one degree of motion) without ANY sensation is not really useful, except maybe building up quad muscle & circulation. I?m not trashing this device. It may one day prove useful, especially in a combo treatment. It may also be of great use to incomplete SCI.
                  How can you be so sure there isn't ANY sensation at all? Just because it wasn't reported in the paper or has only been reported anecdotally doesn't mean none of them got any sensory return.

                  I posted earlier in the thread about how in the paper, the two ASIA B's had a decrease in the delay of the response of their somatosensory evoked potentials (and yes, I know there were no more details or numbers presented, and I am critical of that, and yes I realize this does not confirm any sensory return.)
                  The fact that all subjects had no EMG activity in the legs before transplantation, even on the treadmill after multiple bouts of training, yet instantly got EMG activity on the treadmill after implantation, shows that at least the spinal cord was able to receive and process sensory input. The paper also talks in the discussion section about how two of the subjects (the two ASIA As) were able to modulate their EMG responses on the treadmill depending on how much effort they contributed, suggesting some kind of connection between input from the brain and afferent input from the periphery.

                  Again, I realize no sensory return was formally reported, and I realize everything I just said does NOT confirm any sensory return. However, I think it is at least enough evidence that you can't conclude with certainty there was no sensory return.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Curt Leatherbee View Post
                    As I stated in another post, I am playing Devils advocate here, somebody has to be the "Ralph Nader" here and scrutinize this research. I have seen way to many times where these type of things cannot be duplicated, don't really work or whatever over the years to let myself get too excited as I was when this news first broke as you can tell I was in the beginning of this thread. Of course we all want to see really good things happen with SCI research. All the people these days who will end up SCI, I've never talked with so many people lately who are really into street bikes, that sort of thing. We need something and we need it soon. We so desperately need treatments for SCI.
                    You didn't answer my question though. Did you read the whole paper? Do you understand that TMS confirms how significantly motor complete these subjects were?

                    If you do understand TMS and what it was used for, yet you still believe these guys were incompletes on the verge of moving, then you are calling the researchers liars. So you may as well just come out and say that.

                    Comment


                      All I know is how many things over the years have crashed and burned never to be heard about again after sounding so good initially? Omentum Transportation comes to mind, OEG cell transplants and a whole host of other things. I have the right to be skeptical and I think many others are at this point after all of many of us have seen who have been close to SCI research for decade upon decade.

                      I am twice your age and more than likely have been injured at least 20 years longer than you. I have very closely followed all SCI research from the time I was injured in 1981, 5 years before you were even born.

                      Originally posted by tomsonite View Post
                      You didn't answer my question though. Did you read the whole paper? Do you understand that TMS confirms how significantly motor complete these subjects were?

                      If you do understand TMS and what it was used for, yet you still believe these guys were incompletes on the verge of moving, then you are calling the researchers liars. So you may as well just come out and say that.
                      Last edited by Curt Leatherbee; 21 Apr 2014, 11:18 PM.
                      "Life is about how you
                      respond to not only the
                      challenges you're dealt but
                      the challenges you seek...If
                      you have no goals, no
                      mountains to climb, your
                      soul dies".~Liz Fordred

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Curt Leatherbee View Post
                        All I know is how many things over the years have crashed and burned never to be heard about again after sounding so good initially? Omentum Transportation comes to mind, OEG cell transplants and a whole host of other things. I have the right to be skeptical and I think many others are at this point after all of many of us have seen who have been close to SCI research for decade upon decade.

                        I am twice your age and more than likely have been injured at least 20 years longer than you. I have very closely followed all SCI research from the time I was injured in 1981, 5 years before you were even born.
                        I don't have an SCI. I work as an exercise trainer for people with CNS injuries and disorders.
                        You absolutely have the right to be skeptical, we all do. And we all should be skeptical rather than just believe everything we hear, lest people falsely get their hopes up. BUT, skepticism is different than ignoring ignoring data...and you still didn't answer my questions.
                        1. Did you read the entire paper?
                        2. Do you understand that the TMS test confirms how motor complete the subjects were?
                        These are simple "yes" or "no" questions.

                        Comment


                          @Tomsonite, would you be so kind as to give a brief explanation of what these two acronyms mean? TMS and EMG in relation to the paper or in general? Many people aren't really familiar with some of this and what it's capabilities are..
                          http://spinalcordresearchandadvocacy.wordpress.com/

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by GRAMMY View Post
                            @Tomsonite, would you be so kind as to give a brief explanation of what these two acronyms mean? TMS and EMG in relation to the paper or in general? Many people aren't really familiar with some of this and what it's capabilities are..
                            And how EMG has improved over at least the last 20 years I've been injured. Now if I just didn't feel nauseous after that test that would be a great improvement.
                            Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, "I will try again tomorrow."

                            Disclaimer: Answers, suggestions, and/or comments do not constitute medical advice expressed or implied and are based solely on my experiences as a SCI patient. Please consult your attending physician for medical advise and treatment. In the event of a medical emergency please call 911.

                            Comment


                              Oh yes I read all that, but who knows, machines will be machines and humans will be humans. Maybe there were calibration problems, maybe something else was amiss, who knows. What it's going to take is time and more people involved and hopefully this thing is as good as it seems to be according to papers that were written. I do have the feeling though this is not going to help everyone who is SCI, only a certain percentage of people. Those who it does work can hopefully advance through more technological changes to make their gained movement more functional.

                              Here's a interview, fascinating stuff http://www.sciencefriday.com/playlis...y/segment/9397
                              Last edited by Curt Leatherbee; 22 Apr 2014, 1:48 AM.
                              "Life is about how you
                              respond to not only the
                              challenges you're dealt but
                              the challenges you seek...If
                              you have no goals, no
                              mountains to climb, your
                              soul dies".~Liz Fordred

                              Comment


                                Hey guys, I'm glad to see the amount of discussion since I posted this thread.

                                In regards to the skepticism - I understand somewhat how you feel Curt, but of course I'll never fully understand as I've only been injured a year. I can imagine you've heard good news before, again and again - only to be disappointed (understatement of course) as I had my first similar experience with the delay of Phase III UCB trial, which as I interpreted, it was supposed to begin August last year but didn't due to regulations, preparation and funding.

                                What we can do is wait and see how it works out on the next 8 participants, especially with the revised 27 electrode architecture.

                                I am also beggining to think that completes weren't quite as complete. And as a complete I'm anxious in that regard as it depends on the extent of our injuries. Guess we've got to start somewhere as it may be very useful for incompletes.

                                And sorry to get off topic, does anyone know anything about the Phase III UCB trial? Last I heard was that Mr Wise Young was sorting out funding. I am waaay more positive to the UCB treatment than the implants. But in respect, both these treatments could be used together!

                                Hey GRAMMY, are you behind the spinal research and advocacy site? (Sorry I'm new) I've learnt so much from your site, especially your posts and threads here, and absolutely appreciate it. Would it be OK if I update my original post with links to your site and threads here? It would help the newbies here. I'll also link some more articles and videos if allowed.

                                Regards,
                                TM

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