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    #16
    Originally posted by #LHB# View Post
    GRAMMY, What about quads? Does this device have any promise for hand and arm function?
    The trials are linked here for the transcutaneous (non-invasive) hand and arm that will be recruiting in addition to the lower limb for the new prototype.

    http://spinalcordresearchandadvocacy...otype-for-sci/
    http://spinalcordresearchandadvocacy.wordpress.com/

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by tomsonite View Post
      There you go. Using more than one method as part of a combinatory approach. This is why one therapy alone cannot be dismissed, we have to research everything that shows promise further because it will be multiple therapies given in multiple stages that will cure SCI.
      Actually, the same team is working with electrical stimulation, transplantation of OEC and using quipazine (pharmaceutical) in combinational rodent studies.

      DESCRIPTION (provided by applicant): Our two recent studies on the potential of olfactory ensheathing glial cell (OEC) transplantation provide conclusive evidence of functional re-connectivity and sensorimotor recovery in adult rats after a complete spinal cord transection. Based on these findings, the axon regeneration induced by OEC treatment facilitated some desired sensorimotor functions, but suppressed others. This proposal asks if the OEC effect on hindlimb motor function can be enhanced in both magnitude and specificity with different activity- based interventions. The central hypothesis is that the regenerative effects of OEC can be enhanced by activity-dependent mechanisms, such as epidural spinal cord stimulation (ES) combined with a serotonergic agonist, and training for a motor task (climbing or step training). Much work from our laboratory has focused on the effects of chronic, low intensity ES in completely paralyzed mammals, and although the mechanism is still unclear, ES plus the serotonergic agonist quipazine activates the lumbosacral neural circuitry and greatly enhances locomotion in spinal rats. Our recent work in a human model shows that ES, when combined with motor training, can trigger functional regenerative events and recovery of independent standing and volitional control of lower limb movements. To further develop strategies to amplify the magnitude of the OEC-mediated effects observed previously, two Specific Aims are proposed using fibroblast- and OEC-treated complete spinal cord transected rats and extensive electrophysiological, anatomical, and functional assessments.

      Specific Aim 1 will determine whether the regenerative effects of OEC transplantation are greater than those of the fibroblast controls, and if ES and quipazine (to modulate spinal excitability) or a "voluntarily" initiated training of a climbing task (to engage supraspinal pathways) will promote OEC-facilitated axonal regeneration and sensorimotor recovery.

      Specific Aim 2 asks if the regenerative effects of OEC transplantation are more robust when enhanced by the combined treatments of ES and voluntary climb training or the treatments of ES and treadmill step training. We anticipate that both the magnitude and specificity of the regeneration initiated by OEC transplantation will be most enhanced by ES and climb training, and that these interventions will stimulate the supraspinal and propriospinal networks to improve performance of selected sensorimotor tasks. Innovative features of these studies include the sophisticated measurements of evoked potentials in awake behaving spinal rats, a comprehensive battery of functional evaluation tools, and tracing experiments to detect regeneration of supraspinal and propriospinal neurons.

      The significance of these studies is to determine the extent to which both the amount of axon regeneration across the transection site and the specificity of the established re-connections can be enhanced by activity-dependent mechanisms. Ultimately, such mechanisms may be among the best candidates to enhance the functional benefits derived from OEC transplantation in completely paralyzed SCI patients.

      http://projectreporter.nih.gov/proje...&icde=19539541
      Last edited by GRAMMY; 5 Mar 2014, 6:39 PM.
      http://spinalcordresearchandadvocacy.wordpress.com/

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by tomsonite View Post
        Paolo, you posted the article by Douglas Fields again about the "young researcher" who did this work in rats in the 80's on his own as a grad student. Here is a direct quote from that article:

        "Several weeks later when he examined the nerves carefully with an electron microscope, the results were striking. There was little if any nerve regeneration in the rats in which the stimulator had been disabled, but the nerves in rats that had been stimulated with the device showed remarkable healing. Not only had the nerve fibers regenerated, new blood vessels had formed, infusing the tissue with nutrients, and the coating of electrical insulation (myelin) had re-formed around the nerve fibers. "

        Does that sound like a flop to you? You don't want this research to take focus away from "real" cure research involving regenerative therapies. Well according to the unpublished animal research of Douglas Fields and the published animal research of Gregoire Courtine, epidural stimulation IS a regenerative therapy. And while in humans, we have not actually seen (or yet looked for) true regeneration as a result of epi stim, the fact that bowel, bladder, and sexual function as well as temperature regulation have permanently returned suggests that regeneration may have occurred.

        Epidural stim alone is not a cure in and of itself. But as I and many others have said, it could be used in conjunction with other regenerative therapies to maybe bring about significant returns of function.

        The fact that you predict it will be a flop truly, truly blows my mind Paolo. It is already a massive success. It has already shown to improve the quality of life for most people with SCIs way beyond what any current therapy can do.
        Tom,

        here I am just trying to manage expectations as too many disappontments have happened in the past.
        This "stuff" is very old and if it could really work it would have been done already, I believe.
        If you add ch'ase to the game you may see a better recovery, but IMO it is unlikely to see a super recovery as some people may expect. It may also result in worse recovery at this stage.
        In my opinion, this could be also like holding a part of the puzzle in your hand and keep looking for the same part around. We know E-stim stuff is going to help somehow once we will find the other parts of the puzzle (regeneration), but we need to find these parts first to understand how to best use E-stim approaches.

        We probably have also a different definition of "massive success".

        For ex. do you think Lokomat & FES have been a massive success? I don't think so, I just think they have been a small step forward.

        Paolo

        P.S. I think bowel, bladder, and sexual function recovery are just anedoctal repports, am I missing something?
        Last edited by paolocipolla; 6 Mar 2014, 9:34 PM.
        In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by paolocipolla View Post
          Tom,

          here I am just trying to manage expectations as too many disappontments have happened in the past.
          This "stuff" is very old and if it could really work it would have been done already, I believe.
          If you add ch'ase to the game you may see a better recovery, but IMO it is unlikely to see a super recovery as some people may expect. It may also result in worse recovery at this stage.
          In my opinion, this could be also like holding a part of the puzzle in your hand and keep looking for the same part around. We know E-stim stuff is going to help somehow once we will find the other parts of the puzzle (regeneration), but we need to find these parts first to understand how to best use E-stim approaches.

          We probably have also a different definition of "massive success".

          For ex. do you think Lokomat & FES have been a massive success? I don't think so, I just think they have been a small step forward.

          Paolo

          P.S. I think bowel, bladder, and sexual function recovery are just anedoctal repports, am I missing something?
          The idea of epidural stimulation is old. So is bureaucracy that slows the progress of research. The idea that the spinal cord can't be regenerated is also old and pervasive, as is the idea that the brain controls walking and the spinal cord has nothing to do with it. This is why it hasn't been tried in humans until recently. We don't know the extent to which it really can work yet, though we already know it can do quite a lot.

          Are you saying that if you combine epidural stim with ch'ase, you believe a person's motor, sensory, and/or autonomic function will get worse? How do you come to that conclusion?

          You seem to think that regeneration and epidural stimulation are two separate things. I think that epidural stimulation brings about regeneration, or at least amplifies it. Again, animal research provides evidence for this, and so does permanent return of bb&s function (in chronic, complete humans). Epidural stimulation is worth researching further so we can optimize it as much as possible NOW, regardless of whether or not we have CNS regeneration figured out yet.

          As far as I have read, the return of bb&s function is anecdotal. But it is consistent for all four people who have been implanted so far. Again, it is something worth investigating further. It is not something that should be disregarded as a future flop.

          In the grand scheme of curing SCI, FES and the Lokomat have not been massive successes. I agree they are small steps forward...they are small pieces of the puzzle, and I think FES especially plays much more of a role in keeping people healthy than it does in recovery. Epidural stimulation has been shown to elicit muscle activity, enable voluntary standing, enable voluntary control of muscles below injury, and return bowel, bladder, sexual, and temperature regulation function in chronic, complete humans. Compared to any other therapy or method that has been tested in chronic, complete humans, epidural stimulation has been the most successful in improving function. So, I consider it a massive success. Even if epidural stimulation never allows people with SCI to progress past what we have already found, it would still allow for massive improvements in the lives of most people with SCI.

          By the logic of trying to manage expectations, we should just say everything is going to be a flop, so that way nobody ever gets their hopes up for anything. One of the problems with this way of thinking is that everyone will think everything will be a flop and a waste of money and time, and nobody will want to research anything. That is my biggest issue with your way of thinking here. You seem to want to discourage any research that won't turn SCI people into able-bodied people instantly, in one surgery or procedure. It's not going to be that simple.
          Last edited by tomsonite; 6 Mar 2014, 10:40 PM.

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by tomsonite View Post
            ....
            Are you saying that if you combine epidural stim with ch'ase, you believe a person's motor, sensory, and/or autonomic function will get worse? How do you come to that conclusion?
            ....
            I am just saying that adding Ch'ase to Epi-Stim you can have 3 basic results:
            1) better recovery than Epi-Stim alone
            2) same recovery
            3) worse recovery

            My prediction is that more likely there will be the same recovery, but I have no real scientific evidence on which base my prediction so I am curious to see what will come out of the combination.
            Also Epi-Stim alone will be a flop in the end as the recovery I have seen so far is very hyped as in reality it seems very modest to me.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykUMNi172Ag

            Paolo
            In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by tomsonite View Post
              ...

              In the grand scheme of curing SCI, FES and the Lokomat have not been massive successes. I agree they are small steps forward...they are small pieces of the puzzle, and I think FES especially plays much more of a role in keeping people healthy than it does in recovery. Epidural stimulation has been shown to elicit muscle activity, enable voluntary standing, enable voluntary control of muscles below injury, and return bowel, bladder, sexual, and temperature regulation function in chronic, complete humans. Compared to any other therapy or method that has been tested in chronic, complete humans, epidural stimulation has been the most successful in improving function. So, I consider it a massive success. Even if epidural stimulation never allows people with SCI to progress past what we have already found, it would still allow for massive improvements in the lives of most people with SCI.

              By the logic of trying to manage expectations, we should just say everything is going to be a flop, so that way nobody ever gets their hopes up for anything. One of the problems with this way of thinking is that everyone will think everything will be a flop and a waste of money and time, and nobody will want to research anything. That is my biggest issue with your way of thinking here. You seem to want to discourage any research that won't turn SCI people into able-bodied people instantly, in one surgery or procedure. It's not going to be that simple.
              When you say return bowel, bladder and sexual functions people likely get the idea they restored these funtions to normal. This is not true as far as I know and the returns have not been objectvely evaluted. These reports of improvments are anecdotal as what you hear from people who got unproven therapies around the world. That is when I suggest to "keep calm"

              BTW, personally I have had some small spontaneous improvments in B&B over the years and I hear that is rather common. In my case I have recovered a better feeling of B&B and that helps preventing accidents.

              I agree that I am being very negative which I don't like at all, but it's your fault (LOL!) because I have to ballance your excess of optimism

              Paolo
              In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by paolocipolla View Post
                I am just saying that adding Ch'ase to Epi-Stim you can have 3 basic results:
                1) better recovery than Epi-Stim alone
                2) same recovery
                3) worse recovery

                My prediction is that more likely there will be the same recovery, but I have no real scientific evidence on which base my prediction so I am curious to see what will come out of the combination.
                Also Epi-Stim alone will be a flop in the end as the recovery I have seen so far is very hyped as in reality it seems very modest to me.

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykUMNi172Ag

                Paolo
                Every single thing that anyone will ever try, ever, will have those three results...worse, no change, or better. So that is kind of a moot point to make.

                As far as epi-stim alone, I don't really see how you can say return of voluntary motor control and non-assisted standing (not counting the need to hold on to something for balance) is "modest" results. What therapy exists now that provides better results in chronic, ASIA A humans? Those seem like pretty substantial results compared to everything in history to me.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by paolocipolla View Post
                  When you say return bowel, bladder and sexual functions people likely get the idea they restored these funtions to normal. This is not true as far as I know and the returns have not been objectvely evaluted. These reports of improvments are anecdotal as what you hear from people who got unproven therapies around the world. That is when I suggest to "keep calm"

                  BTW, personally I have had some small spontaneous improvments in B&B over the years and I hear that is rather common. In my case I have recovered a better feeling of B&B and that helps preventing accidents.

                  I agree that I am being very negative which I don't like at all, but it's your fault (LOL!) because I have to ballance your excess of optimism

                  Paolo
                  You are right that these functions were not objectively measured, and that published reports are in fact anecdotal. But, it has been anecdotally reported, at least for Rob Summers, that bowel, bladder, sexual, and temperature regulation function were all returned to normal. The fact that these reports come along with objectively measured data for other functions, like neurophysiological measurements of his movement functions (which you personally often discredit other studies for not having), I think makes them more believable. And if anything, it warrants further investigation.

                  I don't really understand why you think my optimism is excessive. I never said epidural stim alone will cure SCI. I think the results it has gotten so far have been robust, and I think it could be an important piece of the cure puzzle. I don't think this is excessively optimistic. You, on the other hand, seek to discourage any and all research that doesn't promise a full regenerated spinal cord in one shot. That setting the bar too high.

                  You are a vocal, well known advocate for an SCI cure, who has an SCI. The problem is that when you instantly shoot down and discredit every single study and researcher that comes along that genuinely tries or wants to help the cure movement, the general public thinks that all people with SCIs don't want a cure, and no research gets funded. I don't see how that helps the cure movement.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by tomsonite View Post
                    You are right that these functions were not objectively measured, and that published reports are in fact anecdotal. But, it has been anecdotally reported, at least for Rob Summers, that bowel, bladder, sexual, and temperature regulation function were all returned to normal. The fact that these reports come along with objectively measured data for other functions, like neurophysiological measurements of his movement functions (which you personally often discredit other studies for not having), I think makes them more believable. And if anything, it warrants further investigation.

                    I don't really understand why you think my optimism is excessive. I never said epidural stim alone will cure SCI. I think the results it has gotten so far have been robust, and I think it could be an important piece of the cure puzzle. I don't think this is excessively optimistic. You, on the other hand, seek to discourage any and all research that doesn't promise a full regenerated spinal cord in one shot. That setting the bar too high.

                    You are a vocal, well known advocate for an SCI cure, who has an SCI. The problem is that when you instantly shoot down and discredit every single study and researcher that comes along that genuinely tries or wants to help the cure movement, the general public thinks that all people with SCIs don't want a cure, and no research gets funded. I don't see how that helps the cure movement.
                    I think it has been a healty discussion and I hope time will show I have been too negative.

                    Paolo
                    Last edited by paolocipolla; 8 Mar 2014, 11:41 AM.
                    In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by tomsonite View Post
                      You are right that these functions were not objectively measured, and that published reports are in fact anecdotal. But, it has been anecdotally reported, at least for Rob Summers, that bowel, bladder, sexual, and temperature regulation function were all returned to normal. The fact that these reports come along with objectively measured data for other functions, like neurophysiological measurements of his movement functions (which you personally often discredit other studies for not having), I think makes them more believable. And if anything, it warrants further investigation.

                      I don't really understand why you think my optimism is excessive. I never said epidural stim alone will cure SCI. I think the results it has gotten so far have been robust, and I think it could be an important piece of the cure puzzle. I don't think this is excessively optimistic. You, on the other hand, seek to discourage any and all research that doesn't promise a full regenerated spinal cord in one shot. That setting the bar too high.

                      The problem is that when you instantly shoot down and discredit every single study and researcher that comes along that genuinely tries or wants to help the cure movement, the general public thinks that all people with SCIs don't want a cure, and no research gets funded. I don't see how that helps the cure movement.
                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkeye0qcZ9A
                      http://spinalcordresearchandadvocacy.wordpress.com/

                      Comment


                        #26
                        I wonder if some part of this kind of thing might help with pain. I think my choices for pain control are about done with. so now what can I do to deal with the pain once I get the 13 years of patch out of my body? anything?

                        the withdrawal is almost constant now. as debilitating as the pain.

                        I don't want to go to a stronger patch. Im afraid to do that.
                        I haven't raised the patch dose since 2005, when I went from 25-50.
                        two years ago I replaced vocodin with one 10mg of oxy that I take on patch changing day, for break through, and to carry me over the withdrawal as the new patch seeps in.

                        now what?


                        now what?

                        Comment


                          #27
                          I've been interested in this sort of thing since I got injured in 1981 I think it is promising hope for the future.
                          "Life is about how you
                          respond to not only the
                          challenges you're dealt but
                          the challenges you seek...If
                          you have no goals, no
                          mountains to climb, your
                          soul dies".~Liz Fordred

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by jody View Post

                            now what?


                            now what?
                            Lithium

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Subaxone in diminishing doses can take you through withdrawal symptoms. Find a pain doctor that understands and can follow.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by Jim View Post
                                Lithium
                                Care to elaborate? I'm to the point with my pain that I would deep fry Lithium Ion batteries for a snack if I thought it would help.

                                Comment

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