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Epidural Stimulation Future Trials and Commercial Planning

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    Out of curiosity, these 'completes' had no response to (F)unction (E)lectrical (S)timulation from outside the body?

    Wondering what type of therapy they put them through before being 'hooked up.' FES bike shouldn't work so ...

    Maybe I'll ask on Harkema's Facebook page.
    Roses are red. Tacos are enjoyable. Don't blame immigrants, because you're unemployable.

    T-11 Flaccid Paraplegic due to TM July 1985 @ age 12

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      That's a great point. I am an Asia "A" complete T-10. My friend is a chiropractor and hooked me up to every strong stim out there. He couldn't get anything to fire up. It will be interesting to see if this method can work on me. Looking forward too other locations conducting these type of trials in the East.

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        Originally posted by lynnifer View Post
        Out of curiosity, these 'completes' had no response to (F)unction (E)lectrical (S)timulation from outside the body?

        Wondering what type of therapy they put them through before being 'hooked up.' FES bike shouldn't work so ...

        Maybe I'll ask on Harkema's Facebook page.
        Where does it say they never responded to FES?

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          Originally posted by JoeMonte View Post
          That's a great point. I am an Asia "A" complete T-10. My friend is a chiropractor and hooked me up to every strong stim out there. He couldn't get anything to fire up. It will be interesting to see if this method can work on me. Looking forward too other locations conducting these type of trials in the East.
          As a T10 injury, its very possible you have lower motor neuron damage, which in a nutshell means you won't respond to FES. If you have lower motor neuron damage, then epidural stim wouldn't work either.

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            Originally posted by tomsonite View Post
            As a T10 injury, its very possible you have lower motor neuron damage, which in a nutshell means you won't respond to FES. If you have lower motor neuron damage, then epidural stim wouldn't work either.
            It is very likely you have an LMN injury. I have one as well and the only estim that works is sadly not available in the USA. I have met with Dr. Harkema and it's not concluded or a given that the Epideral stim would not work in LMN it's just something that they are not testing quite yet. It is a very low intensity stim like one no stronger than that in a TENS unit.

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              I had assumed because they were complete ...
              Roses are red. Tacos are enjoyable. Don't blame immigrants, because you're unemployable.

              T-11 Flaccid Paraplegic due to TM July 1985 @ age 12

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                Tomsonite, I know I have major lower motor neuron damage. I am as complete as you can get. I have been tested many times to see if we could fire something up. Nothing. My two friends are both in the medical field and wanted to take a shot and see if something would fire. You never know.

                Lyerly, hopefully they do start looking at us. I really don't know the condition of the four or five guys Harkema is testing but did assume they were completes based on there video's. I will have to go back and see if I can find out there Asia scores. Anyway hoping they do can accept LMN injuries in the near future.

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                  Originally posted by lynnifer View Post
                  I had assumed because they were complete ...
                  Complete injuries respond to surface FES (like an FES bike) perfectly fine, as long as they don't have lower motor neuron damage. In my opinion, people with motor complete injuries need FES even more then people who have some motor sparing.

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                    Originally posted by JoeMonte View Post
                    Tomsonite, I know I have major lower motor neuron damage. I am as complete as you can get. I have been tested many times to see if we could fire something up. Nothing. My two friends are both in the medical field and wanted to take a shot and see if something would fire. You never know.

                    Lyerly, hopefully they do start looking at us. I really don't know the condition of the four or five guys Harkema is testing but did assume they were completes based on there video's. I will have to go back and see if I can find out there Asia scores. Anyway hoping they do can accept LMN injuries in the near future.
                    Well at least you had friends that wanted to try, which is awesome. Sometimes therapists/doctors assume just based on the level of injury that someone has LMN and won't even try FES. I suppose the same thinking should apply to epidural stimulation, as Harkema's work has shown that it only takes the tiniest bit of a spared connection to get meaningful function back. As Lyerly said, the only device that has been shown to actually fire muscles for people with LMN injuries is the Stimulette DenX2, which is only approved for use in Europe. I'm not sure why it hasn't made its way over to North America yet as the studies and science behind it is pretty solid.

                    The four original guys in Harkema's epistim trial were all motor complete. Two were ASIA A, two were ASIA B. All of them showed no improvement in response to intensive locomotor training, no response to brain stimulation that attempted to move the legs, and the two ASIA A's showed no brain activity when getting stimulation to sensory nerved. The two ASIA B gentlemen had delayed and weak brain activity when sensory nerves were stimulation. Those four guys were as motor complete as could be diagnosed - the caveat, of course, being they were all high-level paras and one was a quad (C6 or C7 who could function as a C8 or T1, I believe).

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                      Thank you for the update Tomsonsite. I will have to dig deeper on the Stimulette unit. Maybe someone here in the states has a unit from Europe. It's crazy all the stipulations FDA places on medical equipment. I am trying to educate myself understanding my spinal cord injury. It's too bad researchers can't fire up dead motor neurons below the level of injury. If these two guys were Asia "A" completes, wouldn't they have no working lower motor neurons below the level of injury? Trying to get a handle on all of this with there complete injuries verses mine. It would be a Blessing for researchers to reverse Atrophy in the legs. I was a former marathon runner and my legs now are sickening. They went from strong legs to pencil sticks. I am trying to keep my bone density strong but have lost some over the last eight years. This is why I hope they can help all of us with even some therapies. I am 52 and don't want any broken bones and would be happy with improved bowel/blatter at this point in life.

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                        I've just never met a complete for whom FES worked.
                        Roses are red. Tacos are enjoyable. Don't blame immigrants, because you're unemployable.

                        T-11 Flaccid Paraplegic due to TM July 1985 @ age 12

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                          I know its disappointing for me. I looked at the website www.anatomicalconcepts.com/stimulette-den2x. It was interesting the write up they have for this unit. I emailed them to see if one can be purchased thru Canada. I would like to try it and see if it does work in any way. After reading the documentation on the unit, it seems to have very strong charges . I would like to try to see if anyone has ever used one on Carecure or if I can find someone.

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                            Originally posted by lynnifer View Post
                            I've just never met a complete for whom FES worked.
                            It works well for my son. Most of the completes I have seen respond well to Stim.

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                              Originally posted by JoeMonte View Post
                              I know its disappointing for me. I looked at the website www.anatomicalconcepts.com/stimulette-den2x. It was interesting the write up they have for this unit. I emailed them to see if one can be purchased thru Canada. I would like to try it and see if it does work in any way. After reading the documentation on the unit, it seems to have very strong charges . I would like to try to see if anyone has ever used one on Carecure or if I can find someone.
                              Have you tried the RTI Stim bike in the manual mode. We have very good success with it when our "russian stim" doesn't work. The Russian Stim throws a bunch of power at the muscle in a wave pattern. The RTI is a little more subtle but gets better results. You are welcome to come and play with both at our facility in Bloomsburg.

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                                Originally posted by lynnifer View Post
                                I've just never met a complete for whom FES worked.
                                If the completes for whom FES didn't work you met had injuries at around T8 or above, they had bad technicians setting them up then. Unless someone's injury is T9/10/11ish or below, then they are likely to have lower motor neuron damage in the muscles of the lower body, and thus stim won't work for them.

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