Large animal trial for Chondroitinase is underway

[ian]

That is not a fact. That is an opinion.

really? So why dont we have an effective treatrment?

If, 20 years ago, animals had been completely cured of SCIs, then you would be correct

I can see you are new to this and do not have the depth of understanding, there will never be a "complete" cure for sci, animal or otherwise. They have however been showing rodents walking and regaining function after various treatments for more than 20 years.

Please provide the research done in which dogs, cats, mice, or other animals have been cured from chronic, complete spinal cord injuries.

read the link in my previous post, if you want to start a debate without reading my posts first them I am going to go to town on you, dont start arguing until you have at least a little knowledge of this .

I am not aware of any study in which an animal completely lost bowel, bladder, sexual, and autonomic function as well as all ability to voluntarily control their limbs or effectively ambulate, stay injured to a chronic time point at which their neurological condition was stable, then re-gain all of those functions to the degree that an untrained eye couldn't tell they had ever been injured. If you think anything less than that is a cure, then your definition is different from most other people.

If you are waiting for this then you grandchildren may possibly see it, but in our lifetimes this will be impossible. You really do need to learn more about this.

If there was a reason to just say "screw the mechanism, let's test things on humans", why are you complaining about it on here? Scientists will never be allowed to test things on humans without solid animal evidence to back it up first. It is not the scientists that don't want to do human trials, it is regulatory agencies like the FDA (i'm sure you have something similar in Australia) that don't allow that to happen in the first place.

we have the solid animal evidence, what on earth is wrong with you? please dont come back to this until you are least have a little knowledge of the subject or learn to read scientific abstracts.

[Dlevy]

Thanks Ian. I wonder if suicide is enough to make people understand that allowing *nothing* is not acceptable. I certainly will accept the risk of death or less function for at least a shot at some improvement. I got hurt 16 months ago and not a single thing has been suggested to me to improve my condition. Not one. Nothing. There are epidural stimulators, stem cell treatments, drug treatments, exoskeletons, exercise therapies, etc. and not a single course of action has been presented to me. I was not an SCI expert before my accident. I remember my surgeon kept asking me if all my questions had been answered, hell I didn't have a clue what to ask! Nothing has ever changed in the treatment of SCI since the stone age yet all sorts of new technologies have been introduced (MRI, FES, etc). The health care industry should be embarrassed at the lack of progress. I can't even get my hardware removed because these incompetant, self grandising doctors will not take a chance unless they are assured of their own success. It all makes me sick to my stomach. I know that my suicide would be overlooked with just a shrug of the shoulders.

[ian]

Thanks Ian. I wonder if suicide is enough to make people understand that allowing *nothing* is not acceptable. I certainly will accept the risk of death or less function for at least a shot at some improvement. I got hurt 16 months ago and not a single thing has been suggested to me to improve my condition. Not one. Nothing. There are epidural stimulators, stem cell treatments, drug treatments, exoskeletons, exercise therapies, etc. and not a single course of action has been presented to me. I was not an SCI expert before my accident. I remember my surgeon kept asking me if all my questions had been answered, hell I didn't have a clue what to ask! Nothing has ever changed in the treatment of SCI since the stone age yet all sorts of new technologies have been introduced (MRI, FES, etc). The health care industry should be embarrassed at the lack of progress. I can't even get my hardware removed because these incompetant, self grandising doctors will not take a chance unless they are assured of their own success. It all makes me sick to my stomach. I know that my suicide would be overlooked with just a shrug of the shoulders.

I have come to the conclusion there is only 1 thing which will bring any effective therapies forward, we need to get angry, very angry. Cutting and pasting animal studies is hampering any effective therapy, so is the thinking displayed in this thread that nothing less than a box tied in a ribbon with a compete cure inside will suffice. My daughters a quad, hell, she would be ecstatic at only any hand function return, shes not asking for a cure, just wants to be able to take care of her own personal care, we are being ignored by researchers, they dont care, its about continuation of research funding and getting their name in publications. this thread is a prime example of what i am saying, people posting here dont even seen aware that there have a been a raft of animal studies since 2000 showing the benefit of chondroitinase, why on earth do we need more animal studies and why isnt 1 single researcher taking the step after 15 years of this drug showing incredible promise to use this on humans? . I call people posting these studies over and over again useful idiots. Big Pharma does not want an effective treatment, why cant people see this, they love us top keep posting results of animal studies why they make billions from not having a treatment. look at the AIDS community, they would have nothing if they didnt get angry, AIDS appeared in western society a few decades ago, SCI has been with us forever. Whats going on? I am angry, and every single [person in a wheelchair should be angry, we should also be angry at the useful dupes within our community who are perpetrating the lack of an effective treatment. I expect to be banned from this site shortly, people before who have expressed these same sentiments have been previously. Some have chosen never to post here again because of the lack of understanding from the SCI community about what is being perpetrated here and anyone who trusts a medical professional in these matters is a fool, they are owned hook liner and sinker by the pharmceutical industry. 10 years ago we had a treatment which increased function in humans, i know personally 1 person in Australia who was on it in phase 2 trials and when the results were known to be positive it was immediately canned with no reason given.

[ian]

Thanks Tomsonite, You do a great job explaining the need to have the trial. Most every country simply won't allow their citizens to be used as lab rats.

There is work going on to make the dirty research reagent used in the animal lab experiments into a clean form that can be used on human beings.

For anyone wanting to follow the trial via their Facebook, here's the FACEBOOK link...

complete and utter rubbish, no problem with proceeding to human trials, nothing to do with lab rats.

[tomsonite]

really? So why dont we have an effective treatrment?

You said "no animal trial will ever translate into a human one, that is just a fact". Unless you can tell the future, I don't see how you can conclude this is a fact. Besides, bodyweight supported locomotor training, epidural stimulation, and Olfactory ensheathing cells, all of which have demonstrated tremendous efficacy in humans, are based on decades of animal research.

I can see you are new to this and do not have the depth of understanding, there will never be a "complete" cure for sci, animal or otherwise. They have however been showing rodents walking and regaining function after various treatments for more than 20 years.

You said the word "Cure". The majority of the SCI community agrees that a cure would be healing someone with a spinal cord injury to the point where a casual observer would not know the person is disabled. This involves a lot more than walking. If you have a different definition of the word "cure" then you should define it before using it in this context.

read the link in my previous post, if you want to start a debate without reading my posts first them I am going to go to town on you, dont start arguing until you have at least a little knowledge of this .

If you are waiting for this then you grandchildren may possibly see it, but in our lifetimes this will be impossible. You really do need to learn more about this.

we have the solid animal evidence, what on earth is wrong with you? please dont come back to this until you are least have a little knowledge of the subject or learn to read scientific abstracts.

I didn't initially read the link you posted because it didn't contain a title for the study, and I didn't have the time. But I have read it now. First, you must consider that what you posted is just an abstract. It is not the full study, and doesn't present any actual data supporting the claims of the abstract. If you want to assert a point based on scientific literature, you need to present points from the whole paper, not just the abstract. I'm assuming since I am new to this, and you clearly know more than anyone else on the board, you already knew that, and have already read the entire article. So for the benefit of everyone else, let me present some points made in the full paper that are not contained in the abstract:

-The animals received a laboratory controlled, surgically implemented bilateral dorsal crush lesion injury, something that is not representative of most human, real-world SCIs. Additionally, ch'ase was given immediately, during the same surgery. How many people do you know who who have an opportunity to get ch'ase within seconds after they are injured? CSPGs in a chronic, stable injury are vastly different from ones that are just forming seconds after injury.
-The baseline testing done with the rats infers that their injuries were incomplete, since baseline testing involves walking. However, completeness of the lesion is not reported, nor was it assessed with a standardized measure such as the BBB. So we don't know from reading this article whether the rats had complete injuries or not.
-No regeneration beyond 4mm was reported, with the majority of regeneration observed being 2mm. This is not far enough for connections to be made from the brain to the periphery, or vice-versa. Additionally, when the rats in the study were given a sensory function task, the article states "unlesioned sham controls could perform these tasks quickly. Lesioned rats were severely impaired with or without ChABC treatment. These impairments persisted throughout six weeks of testing, consistent with the failure of ChABC treatment to promote regeneration to hindbrain sensory nuclei."

The paper does report significantly increased walking ability in these rats, and reports on some regeneration and degredation of CS-GAG at the injury site, all of which are good things. They would be necessary to improve function in someone with an SCI. But you need to consider all the other variables - the ch'ase was given literally during the injury, instead of after the lesion had time to stabilize. The rats may or may not have been incomplete to begin with. The article presents sensory function not getting any better and confirms that connections to the sensory cortex were NOT made. Additionally, nothing is reported on regarding bowel, bladder, sexual, or autonomic function, so we have no idea what the affect of ch'ase was on these animals in this study.
This paper presents evidence that ch'ase can play a role in restoring function after certain types of SCIs, and this evidence should be taken seriously. However, this paper does NOT present rats that have been cured of their spinal cord injuries, which is exactly how you presented it to me and everyone else.

I don't appear to be the one who needs to improve my literacy when it comes to scientific papers. If you wish to continue having a discussion about this issue and can act like an adult, then by all means lets continue having it, because I actually agree with you about some things - we need more human trials because animal trials can only go so far in their applicability to humans. However, if you're just going to act like an angry 13-year-old who feels the need to "go to town" on people just because they have a different opinion than you and can back it up, then consider this my last post on the subject.

In closing, I'd like to point out that Liz Bradbury, one of the authors on the paper you posted a link to, works for Spinal Research in the UK and has a strain of ch'ase ready to go for human trials. Do you know why she hasn't started the trial yet? The UK regulatory agencies WON'T LET HER until the results from the dog trial that this thread is about are published! She literally has her hands tied by the LAW. Were this trial not happening, she wouldn't be able to have her ch'ase at the ready. I'm sure you already knew that though, because if I'm so new to all this, then Liz Bradbury's plans must be common knowledge.

[ian]

Im not going to indulge in long drawn out arguements over the meaning of the word " cure" or your interpretation of particular abstracts, the facts remain the same. Despite which, I posted the link to show we have known about the potential benefits of chondroitinase for nearly 20 years with researchers money still being spent on clinical trials for rodents. we definitley arent going to find out if it works by arguing about the scientific abstracts on the internet, theres only 1 way we are ever going to know, trial on humans. Plenty of volunteers. We do not need multiple animal trials on any potential therapy, if it works on rodents move onto humans. No need for multiple animal trails for the same therapy. Enough with the rats. Regardless, the fact that you admit that you couldnt be bothered to read the link I posted despite your urge to refute what I did post tells me one thing, you are part of the problem, not the answer.

[ian]

In closing, I'd like to point out that Liz Bradbury, one of the authors on the paper you posted a link to, works for Spinal Research in the UK and has a strain of ch'ase ready to go for human trials. Do you know why she hasn't started the trial yet? The UK regulatory agencies WON'T LET HER until the results from the dog trial that this thread is about are published! She literally has her hands tied by the LAW. Were this trial not happening, she wouldn't be able to have her ch'ase at the ready. I'm sure you already knew that though, because if I'm so new to all this, then Liz Bradbury's plans must be common knowledge.

So if there werent dog trials which we didnt need anyway then she could have been going to human trials? Thanks, just proved my point, multiple trials over 2 decades on animals all showing the same thing. Should have moved to humans 15 years ago. Whats the bet Liz never completes her trials?

[ian]

I will tell you why chondroitinase will never be brought to effective human use in the West, it cannot be copyrighted, no one can own the rights. Its a naturally occurring protein in the human body and freely available in the marketplace.. Our only hope is China in my opinion.

[tomsonite]

What I posted is not my own interpretation of the abstract. What I posted is information directly from (or not contained in) the full paper. You may have posted that paper because it shows some potential benefit of ch'ase, yet what is contained in that paper doesn't justify the risk or expense of doing a clinical trial on humans - that fact remains the same. I didn't say I "couldn't be bothered" to read what you posted, I said I didn't have the time - I wasn't going to bother reading an abstract when I knew I could access the full paper when I got to work, which I did today. The fact that you are not taking the time to address anything I said about what the paper actually contains shows you certainly aren't going to be part of the solution. If you are not willing to think critically about what you say and instead choose to be motivated completely by anger, and can't even give me a well-articulated response, then good luck having anyone else take you seriously. Let me know how advancing human trials goes in Australia. Have you been contacting researchers and the relevant government agencies directly to let them know your concerns?

I'm glad you know that I'm part of the problem...would you like to tell everyone my name, field of study, and chosen profession in order to prove this? You have a knack for knowing everything, it seems.

So if there werent dog trials which we didnt need anyway then she could have been going to human trials? Thanks, just proved my point, multiple trials over 2 decades on animals all showing the same thing. Should have moved to humans 15 years ago. Whats the bet Liz never completes her trials?

Your logic is baffling. Where did I say that she would have been able to move to humans without this dog trial? Where could you possibly have gotten that from? The only way it could be arranged for Liz Bradbury to get the go ahead with human trials pending the results of the dog trial is that she tried in the first place. The UK's or EU's equivalent of the FDA (forgive me for not knowing the name) wanted more evidence of efficacy for ch'ase. Thus, they said if the dog trials go well, she can do her human trial. Is that really that hard to understand?

If you want to know more about Liz Bradbury's timeline and planned trials, do something useful and contact her about it. I've got no further information for you.

[GRAMMY]

Oscar Madison from NYC put this post in the Chrondroitinase Clinical Trial page on Facebook today...

YAY!!!! Oscar turned both of his back paws forward while standing on his own!!! This is huge he used to always have his back right paw folded- like how monkeys ...walk on their front knuckles- his back right paw used to stay folded back like that. While I express him I try to get him to stand properly and position his one back paw correctly but on his own it would fold BUT TODAY IT WENT FORWARD on its OWN! I don't have a pic because this was just as I was expressing him in the bathroom but OMG this is wonderful he stands properly now both back paws faced the right way and this happens naturally now- the next thing to work on is getting those muscles to start taking those steps forward in the walking motion!!! Clinical Trial for Paralyzed Dogs THANK YOU I see gradual improvements in him all the time small but steady improvements!!!

[lunasicc42]

Oscar Madison from NYC put this post in the Chrondroitinase Clinical Trial page on Facebook today...

YAY!!!! Oscar turned both of his back paws forward while standing on his own!!! This is huge he used to always have his back right paw folded- like how monkeys ...walk on their front knuckles- his back right paw used to stay folded back like that. While I express him I try to get him to stand properly and position his one back paw correctly but on his own it would fold BUT TODAY IT WENT FORWARD on its OWN! I don't have a pic because this was just as I was expressing him in the bathroom but OMG this is wonderful he stands properly now both back paws faced the right way and this happens naturally now- the next thing to work on is getting those muscles to start taking those steps forward in the walking motion!!! Clinical Trial for Paralyzed Dogs THANK YOU I see gradual improvements in him all the time small but steady improvements!!!

Exciting, has a test been done or scheduled to see if part of the Spinal cord has reconnected? Forgive me. Is that what they do next?

[GRAMMY]

Exciting, has a test been done or scheduled to see if part of the Spinal cord has reconnected? Forgive me. Is that what they do next?

The post appeared just a few hours ago. Oscar Madison is from New York City (NYC) and the Chondroitinase trial is being conducted in Ames Iowa. No, Oscar was not rushed into a clinic for tests. (There's probably nobody answering the phones for scheduling appointments since today is Sunday).

[lunasicc42]

The post appeared just a few hours ago. Oscar Madison is from New York City (NYC) and the Chondroitinase trial is being conducted in Ames Iowa. No, Oscar was not rushed into a clinic for tests. (There's probably nobody answering the phones for scheduling appointments since today is Sunday).

Darn, I feel like I am the only person that doesn't like weekends (in my world of needing doctors, labs, news updates and stuff, nothing really happens on the weekends)

[Silvio GS]

Darn, I feel like I am the only person that doesn't like weekends (in my world of needing doctors, labs, news updates and stuff, nothing really happens on the weekends)

I hate weekends myself, it's like the whole world stops. Even holidays, I'm really glad all this Christmas s... is gone. Back to business

[lunasicc42]

The post appeared just a few hours ago. Oscar Madison is from New York City (NYC) and the Chondroitinase trial is being conducted in Ames Iowa. No, Oscar was not rushed into a clinic for tests. (There's probably nobody answering the phones for scheduling appointments since today is Sunday).

Noted...but is what I said the next step? Do you happen to know? Much appropriated