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When there is true regeneration will rehab be necessary to detect initial recovery?

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    #16
    Originally posted by NowhereMan View Post
    In the UCB trials, from what little information that has been revealed, the patients who received the UCB but no rehab have shown no signs of regeneration…whether appropriate or inappropriate. Is that correct?
    Incorrect. This is the group they have the DTI's from. They showed sensory improvement of one or two segmental levels.

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      #17
      Originally posted by crabbyshark View Post
      Incorrect. This is the group they have the DTI's from. They showed sensory improvement of one or two segmental levels.
      Time and again, despite some confusing initial statements suggesting sensory and/or motor recovery, Dr. Young has said there have been no consistently significant, verified improvements in sensation (or motor function). So I don't know where you're getting that part from.

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        #18
        Originally posted by ay2012 View Post
        Time and again, despite some confusing initial statements suggesting sensory and/or motor recovery, Dr. Young has said there have been no consistently significant, verified improvements in sensation (or motor function). So I don't know where you're getting that part from.
        The Kunming subjects, the group receiving therapy, had not shown sensory or motor score (voluntary movement) improvement as of the last update.

        The Hong Kong subjects, the subjects getting the DTIs, have shown sensory improvement one or two segmental levels below the injury site.

        Originally posted by Wise Young View Post
        Some of the subjects are recovering function. Many have recovered some sensation in the dermatomes close to the injury site. In Hong Kong, none of the subjects are able to walk without assistance and this is not surprising since we anticipated that intensive walking exercise may be required for locomotor recovery. In Kunming, some subjects are recovering locomotor function but, to our surprise, without significant changes in motor and sensory scores of their legs. We don't have the 6 month followup studies on the patients yet and therefore these results are very early.

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          #19
          Originally posted by crabbyshark View Post
          The Kunming subjects, the group receiving therapy, had not shown sensory or motor score (voluntary movement) improvement as of the last update.

          The Hong Kong subjects, the subjects getting the DTIs, have shown sensory improvement one or two segmental levels below the injury site.
          a) It is a few, most did not get that return.

          b) It is still vague as to what kind of sensation returned.

          c) Improved sensation just below injury is not a sign of regeneration. To quote the only person you listen to:

          Originally posted by Wise Young View Post

          Here are some additional thoughts that have occurred to me over the last few months as the data emerged.
          1. Sprouting of surviving axons can occur within days after injury and improved function can be seen within weeks. Indeed, this is what a number of other groups have reported after transplantation of OEG and others cells. Most transplanted patients may have 4 or more dermatomes of sensation back. However, in our case, although a few patients showed a descent in sensory level, most did not get such sensory changes.
          2. Sprouting should produce a descent in sensory level by expansion of dermatomes. Regeneration should not produce a descent in sensory level but should rather produce patchy sensory improvements after a long period. The sensory axons must grow from the injury site to the brain stem to restore touch and proprioception (position sense) or to the thalamus (spinothalamic) to restore pinprick sensation. This is a long ways for the axons to grow.
          3. Motor sprouting should result in strengthening of weak muscle function in people with incomplete motor injuries. Regeneration, however, should result in recovery of voluntary function from proximal to distal. Therefore, the first muscle that we should expect voluntary motor recovery in is the psoas, the hip flexor. The motoneurons for this muscle group is located at L2, the same level as the CPG. We are looking for this in the 12-month followup data.

          Wise.

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            #20
            Originally posted by void View Post
            Axon regeneration is of course needed, but the growth must also be targeted. Stewart don't mention any voluntary movement right?

            These have regeneration, also voluntary movement:
            https://www.carecure.net/forum/showthread.php?t=177245
            https://www.carecure.net/forum/showthread.php?t=186016

            Both have intense rehab.
            Can you provide their published studies?

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              #21
              Originally posted by NowhereMan View Post
              c) Improved sensation just below injury is not a sign of regeneration. To quote the only person you listen to:
              Thank you. He asked where I got it from.

              Let's not forget the dozens of studies shared published by scientists who happen to be not him. I probably listen to them too.

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                #22
                Originally posted by NowhereMan View Post
                Can you provide their published studies?
                of course
                vaquero:
                http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16713677

                http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18813110

                http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16713677

                http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15129154

                Bioarctic

                http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19738322

                http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22124040
                Debating on CareCure is like participating in the special-olympics. You may win, but you're still disabled.

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                  #23
                  Those are all just abstracts. Do you have a link to any with full text?

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by NowhereMan View Post
                    Those are all just abstracts. Do you have a link to any with full text?
                    Bioarctic:

                    http://publications.ki.se/xmlui/bits...pdf?sequence=5

                    About the research conducted by Dr Vaquero that's all I've seen in english.
                    Debating on CareCure is like participating in the special-olympics. You may win, but you're still disabled.

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by void View Post
                      Bioarctic:

                      http://publications.ki.se/xmlui/bits...pdf?sequence=5

                      About the research conducted by Dr Vaquero that's all I've seen in english.
                      That is a thesis paper by some phd student. I'm looking for the real published article. They might charge money though so they're unattainable to you and me.

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by NowhereMan View Post
                        That is a thesis paper by some phd student. I'm looking for the real published article. They might charge money though so they're unattainable to you and me.
                        Yeah, entirely based on the papers. The best I could do.
                        Debating on CareCure is like participating in the special-olympics. You may win, but you're still disabled.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Maybe a little off topic but...

                          http://publications.ki.se/xmlui/bits...pdf?sequence=5

                          In their method they guide the nerves over the lesion into the grey matter. This to come around the adressing problem. They claim this will get a more direct way to the CPG. They also claim it would be very difficult(impossible?) for axons finding their target if going into the white matter. I don't really think this correspond with what I have read earlier.
                          Debating on CareCure is like participating in the special-olympics. You may win, but you're still disabled.

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                            #28
                            But you only get voluntary control of muscles if you get the CST to work and this tract is mainly in the white matter

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by NowhereMan View Post
                              Those are all just abstracts. Do you have a link to any with full text?
                              http://www.apinme.org/documentos/com...torVaquero.pdf

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by crabbyshark View Post
                                Thank you. He asked where I got it from.

                                Let's not forget the dozens of studies shared published by scientists who happen to be not him. I probably listen to them too.
                                Crabby, you should change your name into "funnyshark" LOL!
                                In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

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