Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Dr. Young - Andrew Fletcher's thread

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Dr. Young - Andrew Fletcher's thread

    Have you been following the thread re Andrew Fletcher's suggestion of sleeping inclined? What do you think?
    Alan

    Proofread carefully to see if you any words out.

    #2
    alan, I have been following the thread. It seems to me that this should be something that is readily tested and should not remain anecdotal. Wise.

    Comment


      #3
      Hello Dr Wise Young

      I have written to and spoken with: Maura Hofstadter, Ph.D.
      Director of Education and Scientific Liaison
      Reeve-Irvine Research Center
      University of California, Irvine
      2109 GNRF

      for the purpose of setting up a simple study which will either prove or dismiss this theory once and for all. I suggested that trials on people were safe, because of the fact that there are no drugs or surgery involved. She came back to me saying that the Reeve Irvine Centre only works with animals and in the foreseeable future will not be working with people.

      She then went on to add, if I can design an experiment to be used with rats, they might get involved. I did! they didn't!

      I was hoping to get your attention with this, as I have written to you on several occasions, but alas, never had a reply. Mary explained that this is because your inbox is like Santa's Sack at Xmas, and I understand entirely.

      In a rodent experiment it would take about 4 months to establish whether this is a winner, depending on the amount of spinal cord removed of course. And based upon the fish / frog experiments results.

      I have seen the articles on exercise-based protocols, and wander if you feel that these would still work, A, if a patient were suspended the wrong way round. And B, or used a horizontal posture for the exercise? I also noticed that Christopher Reeve has his bed on an angle, though still incorrect, it has undoubtedly influenced his recent improvements, in conjunction with the exercise regimen. And We Have the Russian Strongman Dikul to thank for the exercise therapy! He is the pioneer.

      Dr Wise, I have a great deal of admiration for you and your endeavours to help people with spinal cord injuries. And I feel I have a lot to offer with your research. We also have in common a person with a completely severed spinal cord, who approached you. He has harrington Rods inserted into his spine, and has also made some considerable progress in a very short space of time. His name is Michael H. and I am sure you will be able to find a note or two about his condition as Michael informed me that he had been in touch with you and you told him that you seldom see completely severed spinal cord injuries.

      Ideally, I would like an opportunity to talk with you. My phone number is +44 1803524117, alternatively, if you would be so kind as to suggest an alternative method of communication, such as the message board or a private room, I would be delighted to explain how this all come about, where it is heading and how we can test it in a laboratory environment.

      The people I have helped with spinal cord injury would love an opportunity to tell you about their recoveries, and My invitation for you to meet with them, should you ever come to the UK, is open always.

      Sincerely

      Andrew K Fletcher

      [This message was edited by Andrew K Fletcher on 04-08-03 at 12:49 PM.]
      Find us on Facebook using inclined bed therapy as a search term.
      sigpic

      Comment


        #4
        Andrew, thanks. I have seen your messages to me but did not have the time to respond.

        It is good that you have been in contact with Maura Hoftadter at the Reeve-Irvine Center. I am puzzled by the response because this center is situated in a large VA complex with many SCI patients. Perhaps they would be interested in initiating a study where they can put blocks underneath half of the beds of the patients in their clinical unit. This would be a randomized trial of sorts. It should not be difficult or costly to assess the neurological recovery of the patients at a year after injury, since they probably have to do it anyway.

        I assume that you have talked to the doctors at Stokes-Mandeville and other rehabilitation centers in England about this idea. If a conservative and skeptical English group were to come out in favor of this treatment, it will really catch the attention of the rest of the world.

        Wise.

        Comment


          #5
          Dr Young. There is little chance of me getting the Reeve Irvine Centre to do anything with regards of a simple study as you suggest. But with a little prod from yourself, who knows?

          I have been at loggerheads with the spinal units over here in the UK since 1995. Julian Boustead and John Mason who were both at Salisbury spinal unit were examined by Grundy and Tromans, and they saw the results! It then took me over a year to gain an appointment to meet with Grundy, who conveniently retired a few weeks before our meeting?

          You are bang on about the English group BTW. [img]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/img]

          May I suggest Dr Wise, that you raise your own bed as mentioned in the thread and monitor your own results as a healthy person. Look for changes in specific gravity of urine, skin tone, warmth, ballance on getting out of bed, number of trips to bathroom during the night, hair loss,muscle tone, energy levels, blood pressure, respiration and heart rate, a skin pressure test observing how long it takes to return to normal colour before and after sleeping inclined. etc ? I beleive you will see a significant difference, and the changes in respiration and heart rates will be obvious almost immediately.

          I do need some help with this study. The results from people trying this on this forum, should begin to follow after a period of about four weeks, minor changes initially like those mentioned above, leading to more obvious changes as time progresses using the inclined bed and modified sitting posture.

          Have you taken a look at the basic theory of circulation via the links? It helps to understand why the inclined bed works.

          Respectfully yours

          Andrew

          Originally posted by Wise Young:

          Andrew, thanks. I have seen your messages to me but did not have the time to respond.

          It is good that you have been in contact with Maura Hoftadter at the Reeve-Irvine Center. I am puzzled by the response because this center is situated in a large VA complex with many SCI patients. Perhaps they would be interested in initiating a study where they can put blocks underneath half of the beds of the patients in their clinical unit. This would be a randomized trial of sorts. It should not be difficult or costly to assess the neurological recovery of the patients at a year after injury, since they probably have to do it anyway.

          I assume that you have talked to the doctors at Stokes-Mandeville and other rehabilitation centers in England about this idea. If a conservative and skeptical English group were to come out in favor of this treatment, it will really catch the attention of the rest of the world.

          Wise.
          Favourite Quote:

          "I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word. We have flown the air like birds and swum the sea like fishes, but have yet to learn the simple act of walking the earth as brothers and sisters." Martin Luther King
          Find us on Facebook using inclined bed therapy as a search term.
          sigpic

          Comment


            #6
            I am scheduled to speak at their SCI workshop there this summer and will talk to them about it. Regarding trying it on myself, I have a question. I generally sleep relatively few hours during the day and probably remain upright (i.e. typing on this computer [img]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/img]) probably 20 hours a day. If your theory is correct, spending more hours sitting up would have the same beneficial effect? Wise.

            Comment


              #7
              Thank You Dr Wise.

              With regards to sitting being the same as the inclined bed. Many people that spend less time in bed than the norm, tend to survive much longer and live healthier lives than those who seek to experiment with hours of bedrest. There is much literature condemning horizontal bedrest as the most un-healthy route to take in this brief life of ours. You only have to take a look at space medicine to find out what happens when you prefer to be horizontal.

              However, your question suggests, that you like me have concluded that there is something wrong with the flat bed? And that you prefer to avoid it whenever possible?

              The trouble with sitting at the computer for long periods, is that your spine is compressed longer than most people who sleep flat, and this may or may not cause you some problems in the future.

              When sleeping on the inclined bed, your body is put in traction every night, albeit moderately. This stretching of the spine during inclined bedrest has resulted in quite a few people gaining height, when they are at the time in life when they should be loosing height. I am now the same height as I was in my prime and wander if the old man / old woman really needs to be bent over into the foetal position, which is probably the position they sleep in on their flat beds? But sitting up is definitely safer than sleeping flat!

              Respectfully yours

              Andrew
              Find us on Facebook using inclined bed therapy as a search term.
              sigpic

              Comment


                #8
                In hospitals, it should be no cost to raise the head of the bed a couple of inches... Most of the beds have that. Wise.

                Comment


                  #9
                  This is why I find it hard to understand why it has taken me so long to get this off the ground?

                  Maybe a phone call from you might get the ball rolling at the Reeve Irvine Centre, sooner than we think? Skiers note on the other thread looks promising.

                  Did you get my email with Michael's notes?

                  Andrew

                  Originally posted by Wise Young:

                  In hospitals, it should be no cost to raise the head of the bed a couple of inches... Most of the beds have that. Wise.
                  Find us on Facebook using inclined bed therapy as a search term.
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                    #10
                    If this works out well, I want credit as a mediator. [img]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/img]

                    Good luck, Andrew. My bed weighs approximately six tons (okay, not quite that much, but is very heavy), so we've been unable to incline it, but I'll be keeping my eye open for results from any study you manage to start.
                    Alan

                    Proofread carefully to see if you any words out.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Alan

                      Thank you for introducing us.

                      It does not matter how you do it, whether you sling out your heavy bed and get another, place a plywood wedge beneath your mattress, or simply put some folded blankets under your mattress to give you the angle. Do IT!

                      When I started this, I had the belief that it would simply have to work with spinal cord injuries. I now, not only still hold to this belief, I have collated a tremendous amount of positive data, that supports the fact that the human body is not designed to be horizontal at any point in our lives.

                      I have been watching the thread relating to warmth. One of the first changes that people notice using the inclined bed is that their body temperature rises when compared to sleeping on a flat bed! In order to understand why sleeping inclined should be any different to sleeping flat, or for that matter sleeping with your upper body raised and your legs raised, you must first understand what generates the heat in the body of us and other animals.

                      Answer is "Posture:" Look at reptiles, relatively un-elevated and cold-blooded. Dinosaurs, again reptiles and once thought to be cold blooded, now accepted as being warm blooded reptiles. Why? Answer: Because they were elevated above the horizontal posture of today's reptiles.

                      Next time you're at the zoo, or in a pet store, study the lizards and see how they use gravity in order to either warm themselves or cool themselves, by altering their posture. Cows and sheep in a field will also use the same principles as the lizard, by choosing to sleep on a hill facing up when laying on the ground! Is it a coincidence that Crocodile and alligator use a River bank incline to warm themselves and cool themselves, by deciding which way round they want to be in relation to gravity?

                      When a person get a spinal cord injury, they are immobilised for prolonged periods of time. Inevitably stuck in bed. "Lizard Posture"!

                      Sitting in a wheelchair, designed to tilt the weight of a person back into the chair, and in doing so, places restrictions on circulation, which in turn reduces friction, leading to a drop in body temperature, which in turn leads to susceptibility of infections. "Hibernating Dormouse Posture"


                      A bat for example, hangs upside down and is able to reduce its body temperature to near freezing during hibernation. The same goes for the dormouse, who, like the bat adapts its posture so that its body temperature and circulation drop to the bare minimum.

                      When a person with a spinal cord injury elevates their bed and sleeps on an incline, the circulation increases throughout the body. As gravity accelerates the circulation of fluids through the narrow vessels of the body, it causes additional friction, The uptake from the gut and intestines becomes more efficient and less water flows through the bowels, resulting in firmer stools! with the end by-product resulting in additional warmth. Evaporation increases from the skin and respiratory tract due to the inevitable increase in body temperature, further accelerating circulation, which in turn accelerates evaporation. When the bodily fluids become warmer, they flow more easily, reducing friction and thereby regulating us from overheating and this in turn aids the recovery. This is particularly important with regards to respiratory problems such as infection.

                      Everyone so far who has a spinal cord injury and tried this simple intervention has noticed that they are able to maintain normal body temperature.Anyone reading this that is trying it, please post your results as you progress, no matter whether you feel they are a coincidence or not. And please join this study by sending for Free additional information and guidlines. Gravity@bun.com

                      There are no cost invoved with this study!

                      Andrew


                      Originally posted by alan:

                      If this works out well, I want credit as a mediator. [img]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/img]

                      Good luck, Andrew. My bed weighs approximately six tons (okay, not quite that much, but is very heavy), so we've been unable to incline it, but I'll be keeping my eye open for results from any study you manage to start.
                      Find us on Facebook using inclined bed therapy as a search term.
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Andrew,

                        Thanks. I have received the material regarding Michael and read through most of your postings here. I must say that I am not convinced of your theory. It does not comport with the biology of the spinal cord as I understand it. This doesn't mean that you are wrong. Perhaps I don't understand it.

                        I think that the reason why most clinicians are skeptical is your claim that changing the angle of the body will promote regeneration. You have no evidence or basis for this claim. I have been thinking whether it would be worthwhile testing your theory in animals but this would require taking time and effort away from other treatments that I think are more promising.

                        Many people with severe spinal cord injuries probably are already sleeping with their head side of their bed up higher than their legs. If this really does produce a dramatic recovery, it probably would have been observed and reported by now. If the effect is subtle or takes a long time to occur, a well-run clinical trial would be necessary. I am flattered that you think that a phone call from me would convince another group to undertake a trial but it just doesn't work that way. While the costs of the treatment may be low, it is a lot of work.

                        Wise.

                        [This message was edited by Wise Young on 04-10-03 at 08:29 AM.]

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Dr Young

                          I beg to differ when you say I have no evidence to support these claims. The reports and observations by John Cann, Julian Boustead, John Mason, Michael H, Joe L, count for nothing then?

                          When small pox vaccine was tested, it was hailed as a success when tested on only one person!

                          What about the video of John Cann, pulling himself up and walking in front of a Television News Camera?
                          These people are very real, have very real spinal cord injuries and have made very real unprecedented recovery.

                          Please answer this question, for the established views on cerebrospinal fluid circulation.

                          How does the current literature state how the cerebrospinal fluid circulates within the central and peripheral nervous system? What drives the circulation within? We know its not the heart and is related to posture and respiration, but what exactly is the driving force behind the bulk flow of CSF?


                          Quote:
                          Many people with severe spinal cord injuries probably are already sleeping with their head side of their bed up higher than their legs. If this really does produce a dramatic recovery, it probably would have been observed and reported by now. If the effect is subtle or takes a long time to occur, a well-run clinical trial would be necessary. I am flattered that you think that a phone call from me would convince another group to undertake a trial but it just doesn't work that way. While the costs of the treatment may be low, it is a lot of work.

                          Wise.

                          It is the angle from head to toe that needs to be addressed. Raising the head end and having the legs horizontal or elevated means that the spine is compressed, in that it is loaded by the persons weight. The pressure at the base of the spine and in the buttocks is compromising circulation. If the legs are raised as instructed by the medical establishment in conjunction with the inclined upper body it still interferes with our overall circulation.

                          The effect can be subtle, it can also be rapid, depending on the injury sustained.

                          Dr Young, you underestimate the respect that people have for you and your opinions.

                          Andrew
                          Find us on Facebook using inclined bed therapy as a search term.
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Mr. Fletcher, if one phone call from Dr. Young could convince a group to undertake a trial we'd have a cure by now. [img]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/img]

                            When he says there's no evidence, I think he's referring to the type of hard irrefutable data that comes from well designed, duplicated and peer reviewed clinical trials. The evidence you present although considered legitimate from a lay persons perspective, is what the scientific community considers anectdotal.

                            [This message was edited by seneca on 04-13-03 at 01:58 AM.]

                            Comment


                              #15
                              andrew k fletcher maybe you should answer the following questions yourself beings your the one stating csf changes direction with the elevation/posture change. one would think if you know it changes under your condition you would know how it normally flows. By the way isn't csf only in the central nervous system?
                              QUOTE---
                              Please answer this question, for the established views on cerebrospinal fluid circulation.

                              How does the current literature state how the cerebrospinal fluid circulates within the central and peripheral nervous system? What drives the circulation within? We know its not the heart and is related to posture and respiration, but what exactly is the driving force behind the bulk flow of CSF?
                              ----QUOTE


                              LIVE IT UP AND LIVE IT LARGE!!!!

                              http://www.gixxer.com/forums/ubb/graemlins/bannana.gif
                              LIVE IT UP AND LIVE IT LARGE!!!!http://spamhate.com/beerchug.gifhttp://spamhate.com/affection.gifhttp://spamhate.com/bondage.sml.gifhttp://spamhate.com/sperm.sml.gifhttp://www.spamhate.com/wav.gifhttp://spamhate.com/banghead.gif

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X