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    Muscle Atrophy and "Cures"

    Can the muscle atrophy get so bad that it can not be reversed? I know to people that have flaccid paralysis there is the Austrian stim unit but if you don't use this could the muscle tissue become so far gone that any future therapy would likely not work for you since reconnecting signals to a muscle so far gone would not help much.

    #2
    The SCI Nurses can provide a more definitive answer, but I have been told by my PT's and docs over the years that the atrophy and contractures, especially in my legs, would be very difficult to overcome at my age (60+) and length of disability (45+ years). However, I still do ROM 2 or 3 times a day.

    Keep up the hope, but also keep up the stretching and exercise!

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by chris-k View Post
      The SCI Nurses can provide a more definitive answer, but I have been told by my PT's and docs over the years that the atrophy and contractures, especially in my legs, would be very difficult to overcome at my age (60+) and length of disability (45+ years). However, I still do ROM 2 or 3 times a day.

      Keep up the hope, but also keep up the stretching and exercise!
      what is ROM?

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Barrington314mx View Post
        what is ROM?
        Read-only Memory

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Barrington314mx View Post
          what is ROM?
          Originally posted by Lee1 View Post
          Read-only Memory
          ROM = Range of Motion

          Comment


            #6
            ROM is Range Of Motion. I had a lot of complications from and after injury. Hospital 5+ years. There muscles in legs probably gone from laying on back for los long. Add 5 more years of sitting more in wheelchair and zero exercise. Put plan together working from top of body to bottom 1 piece at a time. And I me and ONLY 1. I now have, I think, most or all muscles working waist down to toes. Still weak in areas as well as and both continually short ROM. Am working on both of these and both continually to improve. This includes a lot of massaging to ensure sensation. If you have atrophy in your leg, seriously doubt your foot will work. This is way worked on it. Forgot about foot and moved upward body toward brain until I felt I was ready to proceed downward.

            Comment


              #7
              Dr Young has spoke to this a couple times in the last year. Just do a search.

              Comment


                #8
                I think it can be.

                Iv worked with some starving creatures, with not a bit of muscle left on their bodies. too weak to move, and only hours away from slipping into death.

                so thin they had consumed all fat and muscle. some you just cant save because the heart must have fat to beat, and by then the heart muscle has been atrophied too.

                the muscles do come back with careful nurishment, massage, warm water therapy....
                iv seen this also with dogs who's atrophy was caused by disc impingements, so they were atrophied due to being paralized. same treatments as with starving animals who have consumed all fat and muscle tissue.

                it does come back with careful work. at least for dogs, cats, horses, birds, and reptiles. those are all the types of creatures ive fed to health after being skin and bones.
                I don't see why it would be different for people.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I spoke with a professor who worked on that Austrian unit now being sold by Anatomical Concepts out of the UK ... he said that he wouldn't be surprised if there were still a muscle fibre or two that would still respond ..
                  Roses are red. Tacos are enjoyable. Don't blame immigrants, because you're unemployable.

                  T-11 Flaccid Paraplegic due to TM July 1985 @ age 12

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by lynnifer View Post
                    I spoke with a professor who worked on that Austrian unit now being sold by Anatomical Concepts out of the UK ... he said that he wouldn't be surprised if there were still a muscle fibre or two that would still respond ..
                    You need to be careful with estim though. It can hurt trace muscles so build them up first with either vibration or tapping to and advance very slowly so they do not get over fatigued.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      frozen joints are another problem. sometimes they get some movement back when they get stronger, but an animal with frozen joints don't regenerate muscle well or get good tone. My theory is the blood supply to the end of the bones, where muscles attatch never get enough bood supply once the movement of the joint is affected.
                      so an animal in starvation rehab, trying to grow fat and muscle, is moved by hands, or walked or like with large animals, just stood up with slings. just the weight and act of standing seems to give an animal that seemed to give up, ...just standing them up seems to give them hope. they eat
                      more, and look around more, they grow muscles faster if they are put on their feet several times a day, even if they cant stand on their own.

                      tiger
                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3RB0...endscreen&NR=1

                      and buttercup.
                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8tRVkrXi8Q
                      Last edited by jody; 5 May 2013, 5:08 PM.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Lyerly View Post
                        Can the muscle atrophy get so bad that it can not be reversed? I know to people that have flaccid paralysis there is the Austrian stim unit but if you don't use this could the muscle tissue become so far gone that any future therapy would likely not work for you since reconnecting signals to a muscle so far gone would not help much.
                        Yes, many doctors and therapists believe that muscle atrophy is irreversible once fibrosis has set in, i.e. the muscle is no longer working and has been replaced in fibrous tissues. Fibrosis can be prevented by range of motion. As Jodi pointed out, muscle can be rebuilt from virtually tiny strands of muscle fibers. Myoblasts are the names of muscle cells that build muscles. The muscle fibers that they make will merge with existing fibers.

                        It is not clear where the myoblasts come from. For a long time, people thought that myoblasts come from mesenchymal stem cells that come from bone marrow. However, this theory is now slipping because several groups have not been able to increase the number of myoblasts and rebuild muscles in animals with muscular dystrophy by injecting mesenchymal stem cells.

                        On the other hand, much evidence suggest that muscles that have undergone atrophy due to denervation or non-use can rebuild when they are reinnervated. For example, after peripheral nerve injuries, muscles undergo severe atrophy and will rebuild themselves when the peripheral nerves regenerate.

                        It is true that muscle rebuilding takes a long time, many months or even years. Therefore, some peripheral nerve surgeons have started to split nerves from nearby muscles to "babysit" denervated muscles, to keep them from undergoing as much atrophy before the regenerated axons reach them.

                        Electrical stimulation will also rebuild muscles. Denervated muscles, unfortunately, do not respond to standard functional electrical stimulation (FES) applied from the skin surface. The reason is because the current is simply too small and cannot reach deep into the muscles to activate them. FES can activated innervated muscles because they activate the nerves going into the muscle. When the nerves are damaged or gone, surface electrical stimulation does not work.

                        A group in Vienna developed a very high power stimulation that delivers many hundreds of times the current that normal FES devices give (usually the maximum current that an FES can deliver is around 20 microamperes. The device that stimulates atrophic muscles delivers 200 milliamperes or more. To prevent the skin from burning due to such high currents going through the skin, the electrode pads have to be quite large, i.e. 5 x 10 cm or bigger. This reduces the current density, i.e. milliamperes per square cm.

                        About a decade ago, the Vienna group showed that their device can maintain muscles that have been completely denervated. This directly challenged a long held dogma that peripheral nerves delivers some kind of trophic factor that is needed for the muscle to survive. It suggests that activity alone (produced even by electrical stimulation) can be sufficient to maintain muscle bulk. Unfortunately, the device is not yet approved in the United States but it is available in Europe.

                        The name of the company escapes me right now but I have posted about this before and I will look it up when I get a chance.

                        Wise.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I agree with jody. The joints are really important because movement and exercise is essential for restoration of muscle. Without joint movement, the muscles cannot recover. So, we need to pay attention attention to both the muscles and joints when restoring function.

                          Of course, there are a variety of solutions for frozen joints, including joint replacement. Contracted muscles can be lengthened. And, there is a lot of research going on now to inject myoblasts into muscles. We are working on replacing motoneurons and getting the neurons to grow into the ventral roots and peripheral nerves to re-innervate muscle.

                          Wise.

                          Originally posted by jody View Post
                          frozen joints are another problem. sometimes they get some movement back when they get stronger, but an animal with frozen joints don't regenerate muscle well or get good tone. My theory is the blood supply to the end of the bones, where muscles attatch never get enough bood supply once the movement of the joint is affected.
                          so an animal in starvation rehab, trying to grow fat and muscle, is moved by hands, or walked or like with large animals, just stood up with slings. just the weight and act of standing seems to give an animal that seemed to give up, ...just standing them up seems to give them hope. they eat
                          more, and look around more, they grow muscles faster if they are put on their feet several times a day, even if they cant stand on their own.

                          tiger
                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3RB0...endscreen&NR=1

                          and buttercup.
                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8tRVkrXi8Q

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by c473s View Post
                            You need to be careful with estim though. It can hurt trace muscles so build them up first with either vibration or tapping to and advance very slowly so they do not get over fatigued.
                            Good advice.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Wise Young View Post
                              The name of the company escapes me right now but I have posted about this before and I will look it up when I get a chance.

                              Wise.
                              Anatomical Concepts. They're on Facebook. They won't sell to a Canadian either ... they claim no one is trained and the current is too powerful for Canadian law (which I think it BS in an unregulated homeopathic, diet and supplement environment).

                              http://anatomicalconcepts.com/

                              I used to email with a professor who worked on the original trials. He said it would be odd not to have 'some - even if a little' muscle fibers even in a complete paralytic like me after 25yrs ...

                              They have some great rehab products .. but so far priced out of anyone's personal budget or insurance. It's a shame.

                              I know that Richard - Suzanne Poon's son - had one. Not sure how he's faired with it since they're not active on CareCure anymore.
                              Last edited by lynnifer; 12 May 2013, 10:09 PM.
                              Roses are red. Tacos are enjoyable. Don't blame immigrants, because you're unemployable.

                              T-11 Flaccid Paraplegic due to TM July 1985 @ age 12

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