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keep (rolling) Walking
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Originally posted by tomsonite View PostPaolo, no, I am able-bodied. I work as an exercise trainer for people with SCIs and other types of paralysis.
You are right that even an AB needs to be in very good shape to walk 6 hours a day, 6 days a week. Yet, I believe that an SCI person can walk 6 hours a day 6 days a week because that's exactly what's happening in Kunming right now.
Remember that the only people who do the 6-6-6 program are the ones who have achieved level 4 on the KLS walking scale. Even then, people don't achieve 6 hours of walking on their very first day. 6-6-6 is something they must work up to. And at KLS IV, they are still receiving some assistance.
I think the 6-6-6 is realistic to work up to as an SCI. However it is not something that anyone could handle their first day of training. I do believe that the higher the training volume one achieves, the higher chance they have of returning some function or at least maximizing health benefits.
I think anyone in the rehab business love Wise for coming up with the 6-6-6 thing.
Lots of money to make and lots of people's wallets to empty.
Just my personal opinion.
PaoloIn God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming
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Originally posted by Johnnie Walked View Post
That's it, it's well known and in some cases (one I know of) people can get worse.
Sometimes nothing change.
Sometimes they get better.
Dr. Reis does not talk about the cases that got worse.
PaoloIn God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming
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The larger point is a fair one: insurance (both private and public in my experience) cut off acute stage rehabilitation when a patient ceases to continue to progress substantially.
If this therapy and the rehabilitation don't show continued improvement beyond the KLS stage IV (more functional walking, improved motor and sensory, bladder and bowel or sexual function) I would have a hard time believing that insurance companies would fund the six-12+ months it takes to get there.
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I just don't really understand this whole thing? I'm not trying to be cynical or anything but for a person to even stand without leg braces there has to be nerve connections, it takes a lot more than just central pattern generator. To walk they'd have to be getting back a lot more than just "spacticity reactions created by central pattern generator" This whole thing is very confusing to me. If there were no direct nerve connections being created they would try to stand up without leg braces and just flop to the ground, unless they were incomplete injuries to start off with?"Life is about how you
respond to not only the
challenges you're dealt but
the challenges you seek...If
you have no goals, no
mountains to climb, your
soul dies".~Liz Fordred
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Originally posted by Curt Leatherbee View PostI just don't really understand this whole thing? I'm not trying to be cynical or anything but for a person to even stand without leg braces there has to be nerve connections, it takes a lot more than just central pattern generator. To walk they'd have to be getting back a lot more than just "spacticity reactions created by central pattern generator" This whole thing is very confusing to me. If there were no direct nerve connections being created they would try to stand up without leg braces and just flop to the ground, unless they were incomplete injuries to start off with?
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*This is my opinion, riddled with assumptions, and I may be incorrect.
Originally posted by tomsonite View PostA chair may be more efficient than walking around at a score of KLS IV, but there are potential health benefits to being able to walk like that/doing that kind of program that could at least improve one's quality of life.
Originally posted by Barrington314mx View PostOk. You guys can let me have your spot in line then when it comes trial or therapy time. Cool? Just keep your ass planted in that wheelchair.
a) Dr. Young believes the therapy is regenerating axons in the spinal cord (I don’t). If so, then most axons are missing their targets past the injury site. How would that affect any future attempt to successfully regenerate one’s spinal cord with a different future therapy? I personally wouldn’t risk success from a future (still non-existent) therapy for the ability to walk only when knees are locked by external force, hanging onto a rolling cart, without any voluntary muscle control or sensation in my paralyzed body, or bladder/bowel/sexual function.
However, if it is proven that the therapy is truly regenerating axons then that is a highly significant feat in itself that should be further looked into.
b) I personally don’t think the activation of central pattern generator is due to axon regeneration, so I doubt it would affect any potential future therapy. I still wouldn’t take the treatment because it would not be worth my time, money, or effort. KLS IV waking without sensation would serve of no use to me.
c) Even if I wanted to, as a c6/7 quadriplegic I don’t think I would have the upper body strength to balance my entire body on a cart if I was by myself. Maybe if I had 2 physical therapists helping, but that wouldn’t help me in the real world.
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Originally posted by Curt Leatherbee View PostI just don't really understand this whole thing? I'm not trying to be cynical or anything but for a person to even stand without leg braces there has to be nerve connections, it takes a lot more than just central pattern generator. To walk they'd have to be getting back a lot more than just "spacticity reactions created by central pattern generator" This whole thing is very confusing to me. If there were no direct nerve connections being created they would try to stand up without leg braces and just flop to the ground, unless they were incomplete injuries to start off with?
Why are you assuming that there is no nerve connections? Even in so called "complete" spinal cord injuries, there are likely to be some connections. Also, I did not say that patients have no voluntary activity or sensation, only that the motor and sensory scores are not sufficient to explain the walking.
Many people do stand without leg braces, just with their spasticity. You may be thinking of people with flaccid paralysis. In that case, they may flop to the ground. However, most people with spastic paralysis are able to stand, even people with cervical spinal cord injuries.
I hope that we are making people more "incomplete" with our therapy and that is why some are walking.
Wise.
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Originally posted by NowhereMan View Post
a) Dr. Young believes the therapy is regenerating axons in the spinal cord (I don’t). If so, then most axons are missing their targets past the injury site. How would that affect any future attempt to successfully regenerate one’s spinal cord with a different future therapy? I personally wouldn’t risk success from a future (still non-existent) therapy for the ability to walk only when knees are locked by external force, hanging onto a rolling cart, without any voluntary muscle control or sensation in my paralyzed body, or bladder/bowel/sexual function.
.
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Originally posted by KK11 View PostRegeneration is a slow process. To be honest , you dont really try to tell us that you know things better than Wise?? C'mon......when would you be satisfied?? When someone jumps out of bed after treatment and plays soccer??
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Originally posted by NowhereMan View Post*This is my opinion, riddled with assumptions, and I may be incorrect.
I agree it might be good for muscles/bones. However, can a person walk without another person right behind them? Or will it require someone walking behind them every time they walk (highly impractical)? I think people will just hurt themselves if they’re alone. Eventually they would fall and break a hip. That would negate any health benefits. Without ANY sensation below injury it’s almost impossible to walk, even with a cart. You’d have to be hanging on to the cart for your dear life and constantly looking at your feet. A person would be f---ed if for some reason their legs stopped going in the middle of walking and they’re by themselves.
With the information/results thus far presented you couldn’t pay me to take the treatment.
a) Dr. Young believes the therapy is regenerating axons in the spinal cord (I don’t). If so, then most axons are missing their targets past the injury site. How would that affect any future attempt to successfully regenerate one’s spinal cord with a different future therapy? I personally wouldn’t risk success from a future (still non-existent) therapy for the ability to walk only when knees are locked by external force, hanging onto a rolling cart, without any voluntary muscle control or sensation in my paralyzed body, or bladder/bowel/sexual function.
However, if it is proven that the therapy is truly regenerating axons then that is a highly significant feat in itself that should be further looked into.
b) I personally don’t think the activation of central pattern generator is due to axon regeneration, so I doubt it would affect any potential future therapy. I still wouldn’t take the treatment because it would not be worth my time, money, or effort. KLS IV waking without sensation would serve of no use to me.
c) Even if I wanted to, as a c6/7 quadriplegic I don’t think I would have the upper body strength to balance my entire body on a cart if I was by myself. Maybe if I had 2 physical therapists helping, but that wouldn’t help me in the real world.
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Originally posted by KK11 View PostRegeneration is a slow process. To be honest , you dont really try to tell us that you know things better than Wise?? C'mon......when would you be satisfied?? When someone jumps out of bed after treatment and plays soccer??
When will I be satisfied with a treatment that I would actually take? I can't answer that. My threshold depends on a function of time and scientific progress. If I were older I would accept far less recovery than I would now at 25 years old.
If KLS IV walking is acceptable to you then you have my full blessing. To each their own.
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