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Jerry Silver and Other Discussion from ChinaSCINet Update

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    Jerry Silver and Other Discussion from ChinaSCINet Update

    In our lab we have been experimenting on strategies to bridge a chronic spinal cord contusive injury cavity. We have found that it is absolutely essential to physically remove the tough scar membrane that surrounds the wound cavity. If we don't remove scar then there is no regeneration and all the stem cells in the world will not by themselves break this down. The scar is present and it needs to be dealt with.

    Merry Xmas

    #2
    Originally posted by jsilver View Post
    In our lab we have been experimenting on strategies to bridge a chronic spinal cord contusive injury cavity. We have found that it is absolutely essential to physically remove the tough scar membrane that surrounds the wound cavity. If we don't remove scar then there is no regeneration and all the stem cells in the world will not by themselves break this down. The scar is present and it needs to be dealt with.

    Merry Xmas
    Dr.Silver
    Can we get some refrences to publications and data that verifies this information?
    Originally posted by paolocipolla
    Moe,

    I... don't care about what I think ... you should just ignore my posts.

    I don't understand ... words.

    Paolo

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by jsilver View Post
      In our lab we have been experimenting on strategies to bridge a chronic spinal cord contusive injury cavity. We have found that it is absolutely essential to physically remove the tough scar membrane that surrounds the wound cavity. If we don't remove scar then there is no regeneration and all the stem cells in the world will not by themselves break this down. The scar is present and it needs to be dealt with.

      Merry Xmas
      Anyone else as distressed over this as I am? I know that in science there is room for vigorous disagreement, even between voices as important in spinal cord injury research as Dr.'s Young and Silver...but for them to be so clearly opposed over such a fundamental issue. Has any animal study in a complete, chronic model shown regeneration and/or return of function simply by injecting stem cells into the lesion and without explicitly trying to deal with the "scar"? If yes, then the above statement seems less worrisome. If not, well....

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Solan View Post
        Dr.Silver
        Can we get some refrences to publications and data that verifies this information?
        This work will be presented in my second talk that I gave at the recent W2W. It should be coming on-line soon. The publication of the results is now being reviewed at the Journal of Neuroscience.

        Comment


          #5
          Jerry can scar only be removed with ch'ase or your new peptide or there are some other therapies too for removing scar?

          Comment


            #6
            Dr Davies now swings in with cape and all to save the day???

            Decorin. I still have faith.
            Roses are red. Tacos are enjoyable. Don't blame immigrants, because you're unemployable.

            T-11 Flaccid Paraplegic due to TM July 1985 @ age 12

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by ay2012 View Post
              Anyone else as distressed over this as I am? I know that in science there is room for vigorous disagreement, even between voices as important in spinal cord injury research as Dr.'s Young and Silver...but for them to be so clearly opposed over such a fundamental issue. Has any animal study in a complete, chronic model shown regeneration and/or return of function simply by injecting stem cells into the lesion and without explicitly trying to deal with the "scar"? If yes, then the above statement seems less worrisome. If not, well....
              You are completely correct in your concern. The answer to your question is unfortunately, no. The scar is a major impediment to regeneration. It becomes more dense over time and it must be overcome by powerful neurotrophic molecules or surgically removed if there is to be any regeneration across or around its territory. That is what we have found over several years of intense investigations on how to bridge across a chronic cord injury site. Everybody who attempts to stimulate regeneration across a chronic wound tries to do something to overcome scar. To my knowledge, no paper has ever been published showing that following long chronic time periods, stem cells by themselves can elicit regeneration. This is precisely why Dr Young's denial of the existence of this structure and his recent claims of regeneration without scar modification are so controversial, at least to me.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Jawaid View Post
                Jerry can scar only be removed with ch'ase or your new peptide or there are some other therapies too for removing scar?
                A well established scar at the lesion site cannot be overcome by ch'ase or our peptide alone. The Tusznyski lab has shown that a small number of sensory axons can be pulled through an established scar using viral delivery of neurotrophins just beyond the lesion. However, once past the scar the axons again become trapped in the trophic oasis. We overcome chronic scar by gentle surgical removal of it and then we use ch'ase plus fibroblast growth factor (FGF) to maintain a proper interface with our bridging grafts. Stay tuned for my second W2W presentation and pay close attention to the very last part which deals with bridging a chronic contusive injury site. The good news is that regeneration (with significant recovery at least of bladder function) is possible at chronic stages when one uses an appropriate combinatorial strategy.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Ok Jerry wait for ur second presentation. Hope bowel and sexual function can also be recovered with bladder function with your combination therapy Jerry.

                  You should come with ur therapy soon now on humans with ur efforts.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by jsilver View Post
                    You are completely correct in your concern. The answer to your question is unfortunately, no. The scar is a major impediment to regeneration. It becomes more dense over time and it must be overcome by powerful neurotrophic molecules or surgically removed if there is to be any regeneration across or around its territory. That is what we have found over several years of intense investigations on how to bridge across a chronic cord injury site. Everybody who attempts to stimulate regeneration across a chronic wound tries to do something to overcome scar. To my knowledge, no paper has ever been published showing that following long chronic time periods, stem cells by themselves can elicit regeneration. This is precisely why Dr Young's denial of the existence of this structure and his recent claims of regeneration without scar modification are so controversial, at least to me.
                    Thanks Dr. Silver....just to be clear then, you claim to have such results with your paper currently under review? What would be the impediments to then bringing such a potential therapy to clinical trial? I know in the past, Dr. Young has publicly offered to help bring some of the therapies you've been working on to his clinical trial networks....if you're so skeptical of work that doesn't consider the "scar" wouldn't the best vindication be to bring one of your lab's therapies to these networks?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by jsilver View Post
                      A well established scar at the lesion site cannot be overcome by ch'ase or our peptide alone. The Tusznyski lab has shown that a small number of sensory axons can be pulled through an established scar using viral delivery of neurotrophins just beyond the lesion. However, once past the scar the axons again become trapped in the trophic oasis. We overcome chronic scar by gentle surgical removal of it and then we use ch'ase plus fibroblast growth factor (FGF) to maintain a proper interface with our bridging grafts. Stay tuned for my second W2W presentation and pay close attention to the very last part which deals with bridging a chronic contusive injury site. The good news is that regeneration (with significant recovery at least of bladder function) is possible at chronic stages when one uses an appropriate combinatorial strategy.
                      Jerry, it is heartening to see another person besides Wise with such passion for a cure. What would it take to incorporate a greater degree of collaboration between you two? What would it take to get any of your therapies into human clinical trials?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by ay2012 View Post
                        Thanks Dr. Silver....just to be clear then, you claim to have such results with your paper currently under review? What would be the impediments to then bringing such a potential therapy to clinical trial? I know in the past, Dr. Young has publicly offered to help bring some of the therapies you've been working on to his clinical trial networks....if you're so skeptical of work that doesn't consider the "scar" wouldn't the best vindication be to bring one of your lab's therapies to these networks?
                        In our paper we describe our strategy for bridging a complete acute transection lesion in adult rats. We show very nice, long distance regeneration of certain important brainstem (raphe-spinal, coeruleo-spinal, reticulo-spinal and from the pontine micturition center) and propriospinal axons for very long distances and nice return of urinary function. The lengthy regeneration of these systems of fibers without the need to stimulate their intrinsic capacity for growth (ie., pTEN/SOCS3 deletion) is remarkable and quite exciting. We see some, but very minor, return of crude locomotor function likely mediated via reticulo-spinal and raphe-spinal regeneration. We see no regeneration of cortico-spinal or rubro-spinal axons so regeneration of axons that control fine locomotor skills will necessitate further strategies to encourage their intrinsic growth potential. All these results are discussed in the first part of my second W2W talk. Work on bridging a chronic lesion has been ongoing intensely for 2 years and we have finally figured out a strategy that has begun to make some progress. It involves scar removal and treatment of the lesion ( 2 months post injury) for one week with ch'ase and growth factors in preparation for bridge building. We now see evidence for massive regeneration into and well beyond the lesion of adrenergic and serotonergic (locus coeruleus and raphe) axons that help to control a variety of basic functions and again we see return of urinary function but no return at all of locomotion. Stimulating regeneration at chronic stages is a challenge, no doubt, but we are making progress and it can happen. As we perfect our techniques and provide convincing evidence for regeneration and functional recovery we would, of course, welcome the opportunity to contribute to or participate in a clinical trial. Success with 2 month chronic lesions will give us courage to attempt our regeneration strategy at much longer post injury time points. The work on chronic SCI is covered at the end of my W2W talk and we have a ways to go before this is published.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Shouldn't JSilver's posts be on it;s own thread? Thought this was ChinaSCINet Update's...

                          This is all off topic discutions wich can get confusing.
                          "Talk without the support of action means nothing..."
                          ― DaShanne Stokes

                          ***Unite(D) to Fight Paralyses***

                          Comment


                            #14
                            The nerve bundle growing across the injury site at the recent Dr Young's trial is not growing across the scar? I had this big scar on my arm,got it after a cut during my school days,pre-sci of course.At first the scar don't have any sensation,even i use fire to burn it.After a few months the scar gain sensation.Is the a case of nerve growing into the scar? I presume the scar in the spinal and arm is the same? Sorry,if I ask something stupid,just thinking only.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Moe View Post
                              Shouldn't JSilver's posts be on it;s own thread? Thought this was ChinaSCINet Update's...

                              This is all off topic discutions wich can get confusing.
                              Fair enough, didn't mean to derail the thread... And to clarify, I don't mean to suggest one side or the other is correct of the "scar" issue because of course I'm not in any way qualified, which is the same reason noone would care to know my opinion.
                              My point was, given how ignorant I (we?) am of the science, it's distressing to see such a huge discrepancy between what Dr.'s Young and Silver think regarding he issue and its bearing on the potential success of the trial.

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