Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Jerry Silver and Other Discussion from ChinaSCINet Update

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Originally posted by Wise Young View Post
    I attach a reprint of the paper. If I remember correctly, most of the rats were euthanized at 6 weeks after injury. The BBB scores of the rats with 25 mm weight drop injuries averaged about 8 (non-walking). We studied 3 contusion levels, i.e. the 12.5, 25.0, 50.0 mm, about 150-200 rats per group.

    Wise.
    Thank you Wise for the publication.

    I see the rats were euthanized within 6 weeks as you say which is a bit too early to call it chronic especially if we are talking about the scar.

    Then I see that even with the 50 mm drop SCI model (which I think is rarely used if ever as a contusion model) rats recover a BBB score of 8 out of 21, which would be probably like an ASIA C human.

    So when you refer to this study to support your position about the scar you could be right if we were talking about the scar present in people ASIA C or D.

    Unfortunatly people with ASIA A likely have a much worse scar problem, which I wish had been studied more rather than just saying the scar is not an issue.

    Paolo
    In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

    Comment


      Originally posted by Solan View Post
      I just spoke to Oslo for you and they said that you should plan your own trial Paulo and start harassing yourself instead.
      Solan,

      thank you for your effort, so if I get it right, that means that there is NO clinical trial planned in Norway with UCB cells as Wise keep saying.

      That also explains why Leif ignored my question when I asked him.

      Paolo
      In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

      Comment


        Originally posted by Wise Young View Post
        Paolo,

        Penetrating wounds of the spinal cord are relatively rare.
        Ok, but what would you do in this case?

        For example, we did not see any case of a penetrating or transecting wound of the spinal cord in 41 ASIA A patients that we transplanted cells into so far, 28 of which are chronic and 13 were subacute. All the spinal cord appear intact from the outside. We inject the cells into the spinal cord surrounding the injury site, into the dorsal root entry zones above and below the injury site.

        Yep! Unfortunatly the inclusion criteria of the trial exclude people with more devastating SCI.
        C'mon Wise let's be serious.

        Yes, Liu, et al. 2010 did assess regeneration in "acute" spinal cord injury, in the sense that the rats already had PTEN deleted before they were injured. On the other hand, the regeneration across the injury site took a long time. Kai Liu had to wait 6-8 weeks before he saw the axons grow across the injury site. In rat and mouse time, each week is equal to about a month. If a glial scar formed, it should have been there within 2-3 weeks.

        In fact the more robust grow happens in the first two weeks.

        It seems to me that the burden of proof should lie on those people claiming that there is a "scar" that obstructs axonal growth rather than on people who don't see any scar there and are finding axons that grow into the contusion site. If a scar is there and is truly blocking axonal growth in contused spinal cords, why are we seeing so many axons crossing the injury site in the chronically injured spinal cord?

        Then why these axons you are talking about don't grow out of the injury site and make functional connections?


        Wise.
        Paolo
        In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

        Comment


          Originally posted by ay2012 View Post
          Subacute? Which trial is this? I was under the impression that of the patients in both the Hong Kong and Kunming trials were chronics....I went back and saw you mention these subacute patients a few times and also checked clinicaltrials.gov which seems to have a separate trial for acutes and subacutes (NCT01471613)... Is it right to assume then that you were talking about the improved locomotor, sensory, motor scores in terms of chronic patients? If not, are the subacutes getting the intradural decompression? I'm sorry if you've clarified before but suddenly I'm very confused....and I think it would just be nice to know if your personal observations from before were from chronics or subacutes. Thanks!
          Good questions, I would like to know the answers too.

          Paolo
          In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

          Comment


            Originally posted by jhope View Post
            so no one ever looked at a cadaver sci spinal cord?
            Good question!

            I wonder how many histology of cadaver SCI spinal cord Wise has done....

            Probably the Miamy Project does that, but I am not sure, anyone knows?

            Paolo
            In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

            Comment


              Yes, that's what I meant. No need to question him. If he fell and hurt something than GBS is very unlikely.

              After hearing Murray Blackmore at W2W and then more discussion in a break away session it seems that if he is trying to break down the DNA seen in growth to find the proteins created that promote regrowth than a short cut to the specific DNA sequences might come from people like your friend and others who have "recovered" or those who regained more than any doctor thought they might and ask for a small donation of say...blood? I think I volunteered a man I have yet to be formally introduced to as the first donor..Pat Rummersfeld.

              Originally posted by Moe View Post
              Sue,

              I think you ment Guillain-Barre syndrome and not Guillame Barre.

              I check in more detail about GBS...

              "Guillain-Barre syndrome is a serious disorder that occurs when the body's defense (immune) system mistakenly attacks part of the nervous system. This leads to nerve inflammation that causes muscle weeness and other symptoms."

              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001704/

              Is this what you were reffering to? I may be wrong but what I red about it it so far it does not resemble Daniel's case at all... His case was an injury and not a disorder.
              Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, "I will try again tomorrow."

              Disclaimer: Answers, suggestions, and/or comments do not constitute medical advice expressed or implied and are based solely on my experiences as a SCI patient. Please consult your attending physician for medical advise and treatment. In the event of a medical emergency please call 911.

              Comment


                Originally posted by paolocipolla View Post
                Good question!

                I wonder how many histology of cadaver SCI spinal cord Wise has done....

                Probably the Miamy Project does that, but I am not sure, anyone knows?

                Paolo
                Dr Richard Bungee at The Miami Project was the person to contact on the death of someone with a SCI who wished to donate their cords to science. Since his death Dr Mark Tuszynski at UCSD is in charge of donated cords. If someone has the info on who to contact at his office please post it. Removing the cord for study is done differently than it it is done for autopsy or for medical school anatomy classes. A living will and advance directives need to have this information so a ME or coroner doesn't remove it in the wrong way.
                Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, "I will try again tomorrow."

                Disclaimer: Answers, suggestions, and/or comments do not constitute medical advice expressed or implied and are based solely on my experiences as a SCI patient. Please consult your attending physician for medical advise and treatment. In the event of a medical emergency please call 911.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by paolocipolla View Post
                  Solan,

                  thank you for your effort, so if I get it right, that means that there is NO clinical trial planned in Norway with UCB cells as Wise keep saying.

                  That also explains why Leif ignored my question when I asked him.

                  Paolo
                  No Paulo, Leif ignores you because you don't matter. You are just static that we wish we could turn off.
                  Originally posted by paolocipolla
                  Moe,

                  I... don't care about what I think ... you should just ignore my posts.

                  I don't understand ... words.

                  Paolo

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by paolocipolla View Post
                    Good questions, I would like to know the answers too.

                    Paolo
                    Off-topic, but Paolo, is that you in your avatar prior to injury?

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Le Type Fran├žais View Post
                      Off-topic, but Paolo, is that you in your avatar prior to injury?
                      Hot little rigatoni huh? Mamma mia I need me some sangria!
                      Roses are red. Tacos are enjoyable. Don't blame immigrants, because you're unemployable.

                      T-11 Flaccid Paraplegic due to TM July 1985 @ age 12

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Solan View Post
                        No Paulo, Leif ignores you because you don't matter. You are just static that we wish we could turn off.
                        Thanks Solan,

                        that confirms once more that there is NO clinical trial planned in Norway with UCB cells as Wise keeps saying.

                        Paolo
                        In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Sue Pendleton View Post
                          Dr Richard Bungee at The Miami Project was the person to contact on the death of someone with a SCI who wished to donate their cords to science. Since his death Dr Mark Tuszynski at UCSD is in charge of donated cords. If someone has the info on who to contact at his office please post it. Removing the cord for study is done differently than it it is done for autopsy or for medical school anatomy classes. A living will and advance directives need to have this information so a ME or coroner doesn't remove it in the wrong way.
                          Thanks Sue.

                          Paolo
                          In God we trust; all others bring data. - Edwards Deming

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Le Type Fran├žais View Post
                            Off-topic, but Paolo, is that you in your avatar prior to injury?
                            Le Type, don't try spoil the man. There are not too many of us remained.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by paolocipolla View Post
                              Thanks Solan,

                              that confirms once more that there is NO clinical trial planned in Norway with UCB cells as Wise keeps saying.

                              Paolo
                              Paolo, you are wrong. Wise.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Sue Pendleton View Post
                                Dr Richard Bungee at The Miami Project was the person to contact on the death of someone with a SCI who wished to donate their cords to science. Since his death Dr Mark Tuszynski at UCSD is in charge of donated cords. If someone has the info on who to contact at his office please post it. Removing the cord for study is done differently than it it is done for autopsy or for medical school anatomy classes. A living will and advance directives need to have this information so a ME or coroner doesn't remove it in the wrong way.
                                Sue, I recently directed the donation of a spinal cord to the Miami Project. They are still accepting spinal cords. I contacted Dr. Jim Guest and he referred me to a pathologist. I am glad to hear that Dr. Mark Tuszynski is also accepting spinal cords. That is very good. Both are very good laboratories and will do good studies on the spinal cords. Wise.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X